Project Reality Forums

You know, I think Teamwork adds to the realism, Not realism adds on to the teamwork.

To be honest, this has to be the most hard core Teamplay requiring mod/game I've ever played ever.

That is my statement.

'[R-DEV wrote:Katarn;1070196']The Project Reality team is monitoring the Combined Arms mod closely. We understand your concerns, CanuckCommander, and much of what you have described is what we understand as the acceptable median between cooperation, fun, and realism that we can achieve. Should a workable proof of concept come out of the Combined Arms mod, we will investigate and determine whether it fits into the scheme of Project Reality gameplay: that also abides by the rules we have set down.

I would address each of your concerns individually, but all of them have been discussed time and again with no general consensus on the best course of action. Just keep in mind that we are not twiddling our thumbs and we are constantly trying to improve gameplay and the overall experience for Project Reality players.




This is something we have to consider. Combined Arms may work and be fun in a controlled environment, but so is Checkers. Now play Checkers with a 4-year old. I am by no means relating the average PR player to a 4-year old, but factoring in the relative complexities of the aforementioned games, I believe it is an adequate metaphor.

See, as I mentioned in my first post, I didn't want to use CA as an example because the thread will gradually turn into a CA vs PR thread, whereas I just want to focus on what is going wrong with PR. I was only forced to use CA as an example because people were demanding proof and evidence. Sigh... such an diplomatic post, you'd make a great politician though.

Spartan0189 wrote:You know, I think Teamwork adds to the realism, Not realism adds on to the teamwork.

To be honest, this has to be the most hard core Teamplay requiring mod/game I've ever played ever.

That is my statement.

Teamwork? In PR, currently there's more teamwork on a squad level than there is on a team level. I don't think that is realistic at all. Realism will encourage squads to work together to survive. Realistic weapons and assets will encourage more TACTICAL skill rather than TECHNICAL skill. Right now in PR, in a firefight, it is whoever has a luckier shot will win. If you make weapons more accurate without the RANDOM deviation. People will most likely fear getting shot and try to out smart the enemy.

Srry double post.

CanuckCommander wrote: Right now in PR, in a firefight, it is whoever has a luckier shot will win.

i disagree, how can i consistently keep a high K/D if its about luck ? i cant, yet i do because i know how to use the deviation to my advantage and most of the time will kill a person 1v1. its not all about luck but about skill, thats whats makes players better than other players and keep consistence positive K/D's.

random deviation might not technically be realistic (though it represents realism) but its more realistic than weapons that are 100% accurate.

gazzthompson wrote:i disagree, how can i consistently keep a high K/D if its about luck ? i cant, yet i do because i know how to use the deviation to my advantage and most of the time will kill a person 1v1. its not all about luck but about skill, thats whats makes players better than other players and keep consistence positive K/D's.

random deviation might not technically be realistic (though it represents realism) but its more realistic than weapons that are 100% accurate.

Yes, TECHNICAL SKILL. Not tactical skill. If PR is all about "teamwork," then why is there so much emphasis on technical skill?

With the new LMGs, people are showing more tactical skill, suppressing enemies and keeping people's heads down. You see? Realistic weapons, in the case the LMGs, brought more tactics and teamwork to PR.

About weapons not being 100% accurate, I agree. Remember there's also recoil and ballistics. Deviation is just not the best way to go at it.

CanuckCommander wrote:Yes, TECHNICAL SKILL. Not tactical skill. If PR is all about "teamwork," then why is there so much emphasis on technical skill?

With the new LMGs, people are showing more tactical skill, suppressing enemies and keeping people's heads down. You see? Realistic weapons, in the case the LMGs, brought more tactics and teamwork to PR.

About weapons not being 100% accurate, I agree. Remember there's also recoil and ballistics. Deviation is just not the best way to go at it.

recoil and ballistics can be mastered in about 20 mins of playing......

how can a game be about technical skill, yet its about luck?

gazzthompson wrote:recoil and ballistics can be mastered in about 20 mins of playing......

how can a game be about technical skill, yet its about luck?

WTF? are you serious? Does the word RANDOM, in random deviation, say anything at all? Technical skill because you have to learn the deviation system.

So what if it was 20minutes? The quicker players can get over the technical stuff, the quicker they can move on to using tactics.

Well, IMO a bit of deviation is needed in order to simulate how your gun is going to react. If we had a better engine than no deviation would be needed if everything about the weapons' handling was simulated, but I agree, if ballistics are added in you wouldn't need as much, but otherwise I understand why it's there.

Anyone else think this thread has descended into:

YOUR WRONG
NO YOUR WRONG
NO, YOUR WRONG

*PEW PEW PEW*

??



Can we return to normal service, please?

CanuckCommander wrote:WTF? are you serious? Does the word RANDOM, in random deviation, say anything at all? Technical skill because you have to learn the deviation system.

So what if it was 20minutes? The quicker players can get over the technical stuff, the quicker they can move on to using tactics.

i might be missing something, but you say PR empathies technical skills:

then why is there so much emphasis on technical skill?

yet you say firefights in PR are about luck

Right now in PR, in a firefight, it is whoever has a luckier shot will win.

that doesn't make sense to me.

also, whats the difference between learning deviation and moving onto tactics, and learning ballistics and moving onto tactics ?

In other news, I think PR doesn't really need a big overhaul. It does need it's regular updates in which the DEVs strive to make gameplay better and more fun, but PR is completing it's task of making a realistic game which sacrifices some stuff. At the end of the day, if I wanted to play a MilSim, I would play ArmA 2, and ArmA 2 is a great game, but PR is more relaxed and I can guarantee that if I'm playing with some mates, I will have fun, no matter if my team is crappy.

So, in reply, I accept, PR does need some updates, but it always will, so, really, everything should continue as normal.

PS What's an HR manager Masaq??

CanuckCommander wrote:
About weapons not being 100% accurate, I agree. Remember there's also recoil and ballistics. Deviation is just not the best way to go at it.

right now its about the ONLY way, either deviation or no deviation

weapon sway would be nice, but that cant be done, balistics would be nice too but all that is like no deviation with bullet drop.

CanuckCommander wrote:I just want to say that PR 0.86 did do something right with the LMGs. The effects of more realistic weapons modeling are already showing! People are keeping their heads down due to these LMGs.

It's hard to disagree with this. There's a lot of positive feedback about new LMGs, how realistic those weapons are and how people "properly react" while under fire, etc...it works, so maybe making all weapons a little bit more accurate would work... who knows



(Hmm... Maybe I'll try to mod my PRSP later this week and see how it works )

[R-CON]Ragni&lt wrote:It's hard to disagree with this. There's a lot of positive feedback about new LMGs, how realistic those weapons are and how people "properly react" while under fire, etc...it works, so maybe making all weapons a little bit more accurate would work... who knows



(Hmm... Maybe I'll try to mod my PRSP later this week and see how it works )

but there also is alot of feed back where people say its the lone wolfs new favorite weapon

I miss the entire "make the game as realistic as possible, we don't care about gameplay" motif.

To me, sacrificing gameplay takes guts. A team that works together because they can will always be better than a bunch of idiots tbh.


Being around since .5, I agree with this motion. Realism should always take a hold of the gamer, not gameplay.

Not saying gameplay is bad... just... I enjoy a portrayal of realism.

=/ My dad came in here and said ".... thats not right."

and started preaching about how i was sitting there forever, taking my time to aim, and not hitting a damn thing and telling me how to aim and it was annoying as hell... he even asked me if i had my sight zero'd in.... i was like "I can't... they coded my shitty aim."

I know I'M not the bad shot... cause I can kill with the damn LMG ><

(without spraying and praying mind you =/)

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote:The issue isnt complaints, its the fact that just about everything he mentioend is personal opinion but stated as if its actual bugs or failings.

I hope I cleared some up, we dont want to be the bad guys, we just want some thought put into threads with suggestions not simply "PR needs a big overhaul"

I don't think you guys are the bad guys, I have nothing but respect and admiration for everything you guys have done, despite the comment about Glad we got the message.

I'm getting tired of every time someone does voice an opinion getting the head handed to them with remarks like Go join the Army. I did, and I saw men die, that's not in the least funny. Perhaps I'm reading into it wrong, but it does seem to come from the other side of the pond very often, but again perhaps I'm reading into it wrong, during my period in the military, we were not afforded the privilege of being looked upon as heroes, in fact quite the opposite, so that's a touchy subject with me.

'[R-DEV wrote:Masaq;1070264']Anyone else think this thread has descended into:

YOUR WRONG
NO YOUR WRONG
NO, YOUR WRONG

*PEW PEW PEW*

??

You're the lead mod...

No WAIT!!!

Conman51=US= wrote:but there also is alot of feed back where people say its the lone wolfs new favorite weapon

Yeah, I know ... I was one of those people who said something very similar ops:

Lone wolfs are always attracted by "powerful weapons" like sniper rifles or marksman rifles and now it's automatic rifleman turn... the only difference is the first two are not on the spawn screen... but that's something worth it's own thread because there are ways to do something about it.

So, after playing couple rounds with the new automatic rifleman kit I know it's not a perfect weapon. It's quite accurate and deadly when you're on a position and over watch small sector... but it's not invincible. You need to stay stationary while shooting so you're an easy target, you bringing a lot of attention while firing so you're becoming the priority target for most players, ammo runs out quite fast in long fire fights... and while under fire from different directions you need to withdraw sooner or later... and that's the point where you need to change position and it's over with "spaying" because even average PR player will not let you to use the same position again and wait until deviation settle, it's easier when using "jack in the box" tactic and hide behind some cover but even then it's not so much easier.


I must admit I travelled a long way with my attitude during last week... I changed it from "omg! wtf? it's an auto sniper rifle!" to "well, it turned out quite nice but needs some really small tweaks".
I don't know why I had this attitude... maybe because of deviation I have forgotten it is possible to have an accurate fully automatic weapons in PR... I don't know


Anyway, I wanted to add something useful for this discussion so I was wondering what would be theoretically better for PR, teamwork or realism and I couldn't make a choice... so I've decided to search for some kind of PR fundamental guidelines to help me. I've looked in the only logical place, here:
Project Reality : Battlefield 2 Mod - About PR
And I found this:

The Mod developers aims are to rework the original game engine developed by Digital Illusions of Sweden (Dice) within legal and feasible constraints to create a more realistic combat environment for the gaming community. This includes adjusting various gameplay elements including physics, visual effects and overall game play formats.

So, it looks like realism over teamwork. It looks like that's the true "roots" of PR, making bf2 more realistic... which is logical when I think about it. You can try to make game more realistic with more realistic physics, maps, visual effects, vehicles, weapons, etc making more realistic enviroments.... but you can't make or code teamwork. Teamwork comes only from players cooperating with each other and as we all know "we can't mod players" or "players are hardcoded". We can try to implement various rules to force desired behaviour on players or create teamwork oriented conditions for them but it's not 100% successful. Eventually a player will do what he wants, he will follow the spirit of teamwork or not.

Players are like a river, they will adopt to new circumstances or find a way around.

Thanks for that.

Ragni, I understand, however there will be times when we have to adjust and choose gameplay > reality, and that's why I love PR, because if it was pure realism, it probably wouldn't be as fun.

i hate the phrase FORCE team work

what the DEVs really did is ENCOURAGE team work