Project Reality Forums

I don't really get what all the argument about good tactics vs bad tactics is about

look at the most positive and most negative outcomes of rushing:
a) you get your *** handed to you by the enemy you are rushing, loosing alot of tickets and assets, this hurts your team and may even set them up to loose, thus ruining their fun.

b) you overwhelm the enemy and stop em from capping the flag long enough for your team to cap all the others and then overrun that last flag, game is over in 15 minutes thus ruining everyones fun

its a game, its about fun, not just your fun, but the fun of everyone on the server

Edit:
I remembered a fun story about this.
A couple of days ago, I was on UKWF I think and there was this squad whose name I wont tell you but that are usually fun players. Anyways, I was in their squad and they didn't want to play yamalia, so they decided (as the russians) to go rush the enemy main. So I left the squad and opened an APC squad. We got 3 APCs and were doing most of the carrying people. Now this squad that had rushed the enemy main actually stopped them from leaving the main for a good 10 minutes. They kept calling for reinforcements up near the enemy main and calling for us to get the flags that the canadians would have to capture next.
I told my APC squad not to ferry anone there since I was against rushing. ( I like the map and actually wanted to play it)
After 10 minutes, that squad got wiped out and the canadians proceeded to capture their flags and we had a fun round.

ChizNizzle wrote:Bahaha lol.

Truism and smiley, can you stop arguing because it wil get you nowhere but in problems...

Without debates this forum would be bland and flavourless.

This mod wouldn't have come about without them as well.

Truism wrote:Statements of fact are bolded. You were not giving your opinions, you were saying how things were.



The funniest thing is that I didn't bold that all in one go. I bolded it argument by argument. Basically you're trying to pretend you didn't just make a whole bunch of unsupportable assertions and get completely owned for doing it. You also imply that rushing either shouldn't be attempted at all, or should be somehow coded against because it is a negative gameplay dynamic (and all negative gameplay dynamics should be fixed).

Additionally you still don't acknowledge that rushing =/= advanced tactics, but many advanced tactics require rushing to achieve. You still want to argue the narrowest possible (truistic) definition of rushing and don't want to look at the broader picture at all.

You should probably take up debating, it might actually help you argue coherently, because at the moment you're outright bad at it.

Seeing as how you have gone to the trouble of highlighting my post allow me to retort:

My original post was expressing, in the main, an opinion. That may not have been clear to all, but I've said it repeatedly since, and say so once again here.

That, being said, I think it's pretty hard to argue against the fact that "Everyone is alive at the start of a round, all armour is up and running, all HAT kits are available, so basically everything that can kill your rushing tank/apc/FAV whatever is on the map and ready to take you out". Or that at the start of a round this technique means "You have done zero recon, all you have done is charge up the map because you know what direction the majority of the team is coming from. This can be done by simply looking at your map".


In answer to the rest of your comments, I haven't advocated limiting tactics, and don't "imply that rushing either shouldn't be attempted at all, or should be somehow coded against". If anything I say that it shouldn't be attempted at the start of a round, but that's it.

Plus, I still don't see why should I acknowledge that rushing is an advanced tactic, when I quite clearly stated that I didn't agree with the term. I'm quite happy to argue the wider definition of the so called tactic, however i gave an example of kashan to use as a broad definition. Did you not see that?
This was once again my own personal opinion, not a fact as you seemed to think. You are the one talking about me stating facts, and I'm the one constantly reminding you that they are just opinions nothing more. Lots of forum posts (including yours) seem to contain unsupported (and maybe even unsupportable) 'facts', but unless we start giving full references for every assertion, I don't see a way around it. Maybe you'd like to get the ball rolling by giving me some supporting data for some of your assertions?


Your jibe about debating is pointless. Your attempt to score points from it is also pointless,
and your lack of ability to argue coherently yourself is somewhat hypocritical.
If you do not agree with what I've said then for the love of god just say so. If you think I didn't understand something or someone correctly, then again why not just ask me if I understood? Surely this is how debate and discourse works. But of course what do I know? I've already been told i'm a terrible debater, which, i hasten to add, is just your opinion, for what that's worth.


And finally please understand that all the unsupported assertions I made are unsupported because.................... guess what?................. That's right, they are just my opinions, my thoughts on a subject, my interpretations of a topic and NOT and I repeat NOT, in case you have missed it A FACT.................. Is that starting to get through to you yet?

Going back to part of the original post of this thread, referring to players going on to flags that are not currently in play I would say that it can be extremely frustrating. I've got nothing against rushing to flags at round start (I do so myself and often get annoyed by how slow some squads can be in moving out from main) but when squads are consistently just carrying on to flags that have nothing to do with the cap order I almost tear my hair out.

As an example I had a round earlier today on TG - Silent Eagle. I was running a support squad on US doing transportation with a Chinook and Humvee, tank hunting with a TOW Humvee and CAS support with the A-10 at one point. Obviously running support my options for capping flags were limited so I had to rely on other squads to actually get on the radius and cap the flags.

Throughout the round the only flags in play were the US Airfield and Clearing, with central village being capable for us for roughly 20 minutes of a two hour round, yet throughout other squads constantly just went to village. The excuse given was that if we capped Clearing we could easily cap village, but this is rubbish when you don't have enough people to cap the first flag. The round ended with Airfield being neutral for about 30 minutes before the Russians eventually capped it and caused a bleed.

This can be unbelievably frustrating when you are being killed on your base flag when people are still pointlessly pushing on flags that haven't been in play for more than an hour. This for me is much more of an irritation than rushing at the start of a round, but then as we all know players are hardcoded.

Jigsaw wrote:Going back to part of the original post of this thread, referring to players going on to flags that are not currently in play I would say that it can be extremely frustrating. I've got nothing against rushing to flags at round start (I do so myself and often get annoyed by how slow some squads can be in moving out from main) but when squads are consistently just carrying on to flags that have nothing to do with the cap order I almost tear my hair out.

As an example I had a round earlier today on TG - Silent Eagle. I was running a support squad on US doing transportation with a Chinook and Humvee, tank hunting with a TOW Humvee and CAS support with the A-10 at one point. Obviously running support my options for capping flags were limited so I had to rely on other squads to actually get on the radius and cap the flags.

Throughout the round the only flags in play were the US Airfield and Clearing, with central village being capable for us for roughly 20 minutes of a two hour round, yet throughout other squads constantly just went to village. The excuse given was that if we capped Clearing we could easily cap village, but this is rubbish when you don't have enough people to cap the first flag. The round ended with Airfield being neutral for about 30 minutes before the Russians eventually capped it and caused a bleed.

This can be unbelievably frustrating when you are being killed on your base flag when people are still pointlessly pushing on flags that haven't been in play for more than an hour. This for me is much more of an irritation than rushing at the start of a round, but then as we all know players are hardcoded.

This is exactly what im talking about... I grind my teeth over that

charliegrs wrote:Im pretty sure about 50 percent of the players on the public servers arent playing anywhere near correctly.

Then what is the correct way to play exactly? Is there a manual around for correct 100% playing and technique for PR players or something? I can tell you right now that CQB tactics like real life don't work in insurgency, but if 1 or 2 guys dress up as an insurgent, they can pretty much ninja a cache and get it themselves. Realistic? Nope, but that's the nature of the game.

All the "dirty tactics" work ingame and they have always done so from the beginning because you guys forget that we are still playing on the BF2 engine. Rushing is one of them. Not only rushing the flag ahead of the one you are supposed to cap, but literally rushing in CQB too. Just going to the flag you are supposed to cap first creates stalemates a lot of times and may lose you the game on some armor sided maps.

Just look at Jabal. If the MEC rush West Beach (is West Beach still around or did they take it out?) and take it, then they are almost guranteed to win the game.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:Then what is the correct way to play exactly? Is there a manual around for correct 100% playing and technique for PR players or something? I can tell you right now that CQB tactics like real life don't work in insurgency, but if 1 or 2 guys dress up as an insurgent, they can pretty much ninja a cache and get it themselves. Realistic? Nope, but that's the nature of the game.

All the "dirty tactics" work ingame and they have always done so from the beginning because you guys forget that we are still playing on the BF2 engine. Rushing is one of them. Not only rushing the flag ahead of the one you are supposed to cap, but literally rushing in CQB too. Just going to the flag you are supposed to cap first creates stalemates a lot of times and may lose you the game on some armor sided maps.

Just look at Jabal. If the MEC rush West Beach (is West Beach still around or did they take it out?) and take it, then they are almost guranteed to win the game.

They took out West beach and it was East beach that caused the bleed and it requires a very sloppy US team for the MEC to get to East first.

CallousDisregard wrote:They took out West beach and it was East beach that caused the bleed and it requires a very sloppy US team for the MEC to get to East first.

Its half random AAS now I think, either Dam, West Beach or South Bridge arent there.

And I've seen plently of public games where the US team is completely overwhelmed and never really organizes itself.

L4gi wrote:I dont have an army of fanboys.

I do, although most are more fanmen, than fanboys

first of all - no facepalm
i see 7 pages to scratch your tongues how to play good how to play wrong srsly ?!
any who join in public server cant whining and say you play it good or bad ,you talkin for tactic rounds ,well they belong to communitys and clan battles or wars what ever ,any sq have a difrent "tactic" in game ,the thing is you cant say him what to do even if you are comander (the one sq gonna listen the other 8 not),you guys want super ultra mega tactic rounds ? join in clan or join in sq in pub. server with ppl who play it before and know his skills and stuffs so ....Playing the game wrong, i dont think so

respectttt

Jigsaw wrote:Going back to part of the original post of this thread, referring to players going on to flags that are not currently in play I would say that it can be extremely frustrating. I've got nothing against rushing to flags at round start (I do so myself and often get annoyed by how slow some squads can be in moving out from main) but when squads are consistently just carrying on to flags that have nothing to do with the cap order I almost tear my hair out.

That is not the fault of the tactic, it is either the fault of your command or the players who are too lazy/do not take the initiative to go and cap back flags. Honestly though, In any other server than RT or maybe UKWF/TG I really do no expect for any other squads to show the basic logic of capping flags (as hard as this is) so I have learnt just to accept that people are not going to go and cap a flag, they want to be fighting and thats their choice.

What you guys are now talking about is not rushing, there is a huge difference between attacking a forward flag that might be out of play instead of falling back as opposed to rushing near the start of the round to delay or disrupt enemy movement and allow your team to gain more ground early on. All of which are legitimate tactics, so people like smiley need to stop crying about it and saying its should not be used. Early rushes are the fault of the map, not the tactic. For example, Muttrah and Jabal (if AAS allows on Jabal) give a huge advantage to an early rush, the tactic is valid, but it is down to the map whether it counts as abuse (which in my eyes its not, there are more places to land on jabal than west beach to attack it).

Tim270 wrote:That is not the fault of the tactic, it is either the fault of your command or the players who are too lazy/do not take the initiative to go and cap back flags. Honestly though, In any other server than RT or maybe UKWF/TG I really do no expect for any other squads to show the basic logic of capping flags.

Never said it had anything to do with rush tactics, or even tactics in general. Attacking a flag that is outside the cap order (and has been for some time) is entirely pointless, whereas rush tactics are a useful and valid option for many situations.

What I was bemoaning was the constant movement to flags outside of the cap order. This in many cases is utterly useless and causes major problems for your team, so is not a valid tactic. As I said, players are hardcoded, I was simply relating my experience of the problem. Remember as I said this was on TG, which imo is comfortably the most reliable server for teamwork. I was running a support squad at the time as stated and no matter how much I went on about it on mumble and in-game team chat they ignored my points, which imo lost us the round.

When your mainbase is under heavy attack and going neutral, the most disheartening thing is to look at the map and still see several squads attacking a flag that is two flags away from being available to capture.

Gaffertape wrote:Its half random AAS now I think, either Dam, West Beach or South Bridge arent there.

And I've seen plently of public games where the US team is completely overwhelmed and never really organizes itself.

Well i've actually never seen an organized team on Jabal at previous version. However, i dont think that this is gonna change at 0.9

This is not a problem about the maps, this is about the player's mentality. Unless they change their mentality, this will go on and on.

Nice sig btw Narco. lol


OReely

Jigsaw wrote:When your mainbase is under heavy attack and going neutral, the most disheartening thing is to look at the map and still see several squads attacking a flag that is two flags away from being available to capture.

I wholeheartedly agree, but my experience from playing for so long has just left me to accept it as people dont want to listen and dont want to be told what to do. In my opinion, full 32v32 clan battles provide the best gameplay experience out of PR where you have to 'play the right way' or you lose, simple as, and as the stakes are much higher than pubbing, people follow the chain of command.

Tim270 wrote: , so people like smiley need to stop crying about it and saying its should not be used.

I give up............................. Remind me to be as polite as you next time your on my server and you need something.

rushing is a viable and realistic tactic. nothing wrong with it.

historical examples of the rush: German blitzkreig, they destroyed Polish armies and other armies using blitzkreig; US invasion of Iraq, the US supply line could hardly keep up with the armor and mech inf as they rushed to Bagdad.

rushing should be used with a special forces type squad flanking or setting up an distant FOB with TOW AA to disrupt enemy reinforcements etc

There is no "right" way to play a game.

Hunt3r wrote:There is no "right" way to play a game.

You should be more specific... there is no one "right" way to play PR. There are, however, a myriad of "wrong" ways to play PR.

Meza82 wrote:rushing is a viable and realistic tactic. nothing wrong with it.

historical examples of the rush: German blitzkreig, they destroyed Polish armies and other armies using blitzkreig; US invasion of Iraq, the US supply line could hardly keep up with the armor and mech inf as they rushed to Bagdad.

rushing should be used with a special forces type squad flanking or setting up an distant FOB with TOW AA to disrupt enemy reinforcements etc

Real-world tactics DON'T always apply to PR, specifically what you were talking about doesn't apply with large scale offensives. PR is a platoon sized assault of 32 people.

And you cannot say its rushing on a smaller scale either as there really is no 'supply line'.

dtacs wrote:Real-world tactics DON'T always apply to PR, specifically what you were talking about doesn't apply with large scale offensives. PR is a platoon sized assault of 32 people.

And you cannot say its rushing on a smaller scale either as there really is no 'supply line'.

Well, you can, actually.

You're out manuvering and out thinking the opponent (ie doing what you're supposed to). This is a competitive game, so play to win or don't play at all.

Rushing is only effective if the enemy are dumb enough to be taken off guard by it (in which case, they deserve to loose). Rushing forces are typically lightly armed and equipped and if the enemy team is prepared to deal with them will usually find themselves running into a larger, better equipped force and getting thier faces beaten in.

The absolute worst thing you can do in any game is what your opponent expects you to do, because they'll counter it. In PR most people, most of the time, are far too used to rounds going down a specific way and if anyone does something to upset they get derided as using "unrealistic" or "unfair" tactics. Such name calling is the final hiding place of people who simply don't have the will to do whats required to win.

Claims of fighting "fair" or with "honour" should be called out for the bull**** they are. People who make them cannot play to win and try to bring others down to thier level.

Far too often I see people playing the wrong way - failing to make use of every available tool and tactic to achieve victory is the absolutely worst way to play. You're not fulfiling your own potential, you're letting your team down and you're going against the very spirit of what is an inherently competitive game.