Project Reality Forums

I would like to have the settle time indicator like the one Mosquill showed on his video.

In real life you would know when you would be ready to shoot, and it would not be related to counting x seconds before shooting, so having an indicator of when you were ready to shoot would be realistic since we cant simulate weapon Iron sights "shaking".

But i would agree with lower settle time with more deviation

Hfett wrote:I would like to have the settle time indicator like the one Mosquill showed on his video.

In real life you would know when you would be ready to shoot, and it would not be related to counting x seconds before shooting, so having an indicator of when you were ready to shoot would be realistic since we cant simulate weapon Iron sights "shaking".

This has to be my biggest gripe about the system. This is also the reason why the luck factor is so prominent. However, I still find deviation to be too much. I go through the steps (crouch, count to four, fire, wait 1 second, fire, etc.) and still tend to miss horribly. I also find that Jaymz's "minor movement" deviation fix is nonexistent.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote: Id enjoy gamepaly with deviation or with the hyper accurate guns we used to have, but I'm headshotting people with the current weapons at 600m, it aint hard....

I call bs on this one if there isn't any proof... I would prefer the FH2 model that has very accurate weapons with cosmetic weapon sway. I find that such a feature is enough to throw me off a little in the heat of combat.

google wrote:This has to be my biggest gripe about the system. This is also the reason why the luck factor is so prominent. However, I still find deviation to be too much. I go through the steps (crouch, count to four, fire, wait 1 second, fire, etc.) and still tend to miss horribly. I also find that Jaymz's "minor movement" deviation fix is nonexistent.

I usualy spray and pray unless the target didnt saw me.

Spray and pray always kill the guys who are doing the step's you described (waiting x seconds before shoot back at you).

You should only wait x seconds if the targed didnt saw you, count up to 6 to ensure a hit.
Otherwise it is full auto spray time (or non stop single shots, usualy work better, dont take your time doing proper aiming, just keep firing)

google wrote: I call bs on this one if there isn't any proof... I would prefer the FH2 model that has very accurate weapons with cosmetic weapon sway. I find that such a feature is enough to throw me off a little in the heat of combat.

I thought my word carried more weight around here....

I also find that Jaymz's "minor movement" deviation fix is nonexistent.

I call BS on this, cuz it just aint true, anyone who says it is is clearly just frustrated

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Rudd;1372272']Imo, its settle time rather than deviation itself people are frustrated with.[/quote]

IMO, it's part of the problem but not all of it. The problem is they don't understand how the entire system works; they're not properly using the settle time to their advantage.

[quote="google""]crouch, count to four, fire, wait 1 second, fire, etc.[/quote]

Well there's yer problerm...
Total settle time is 5 seconds.
Time to settle between recoil is 1.5 seconds.

Though waiting these full timings is not necessary.

I also find that Jaymz's "minor movement" deviation fix is nonexistent.

However you're doing it, you're doing it wrong.

I call bs on this one if there isn't any proof... I would prefer the FH2 model that has very accurate weapons with cosmetic weapon sway. I find that such a feature is enough to throw me off a little in the heat of combat.

Exploitable, and wouldn't work for this system. Exploitable in that you could mark the center of your screen (whereas the current system makes this impossible) depending on how the animations are done. Wouldn't work because either the sway would be consistent, which would either make CQC too easy or make long range too hard, or it would always follow the same animation, so you'd have to settle entirely for 5 seconds when you scope in even if you were settled an hour ago (unscoping and rescoping would be a hassle!).






Learning how to exploit (the good way) how deviation works to your advantage is a big part of becoming a good marksman in PR. For instance:
Engagements under 100m only need around 2 second settle to start firing accurately, and even less to fire semi-accurately. If you can't make it to cover, knowing how long you need to settle to begin firing can make the difference between life and death.
If you settle behind cover, peek out (either uncrouch, or sidestep the cover and resettle for the 1 second you took to step you) and fire, you can maintain your deviation to fire off a pretty accurate shot.
If the enemy is sighted in on you, he's got a higher accuracy. Instead of attempting to outright headshot him, harass him with peeking shots until you either force him to drop his head or you land a shot.

Utilizing all these (and many more tricks) regarding the deviation system can make you a better marksman, better at MOUT, etc. I promise you that everything Jaymz said is there, is indeed there, and are being used to great prowess among those who understand it.
I've suggested to Jaymz a bit of a reworking of the system that wouldn't change the overall feel of the current system, but would make it easier to understand by using easily visualized values (ie. 1 second would = accurate to 50m, 2 second = 100m, etc) which I think would greatly increase understanding and utilization of the deviation system.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:luck is a factor IRL, you might step on loose ground Id enjoy gamepaly with deviation or with the hyper accurate guns we used to have, but I'm headshotting people with the current weapons at 600m, it aint hard....

your mistake is "it aint hard" at the end of message.

keep those stories for grandchildren plz.
"Then i turned around, prouned and made a headshot. I swear, he was 600... no 700 meters away. I made it many times."

there is one "weapons" for headshotting at >400 meters - sniper rifle.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me, I'm not one shotting these guys, I'm putting rounds on target, and over the course of 30 seconds of shooting a headshot is perfectly possible. unless ofc they get down.

with 24" monitor maybe.

with my 19" one error of matching sight with target makes it very hard even after 10 sec of aiming.

Celestial1 wrote: Exploitable, and wouldn't work for this system. Exploitable in that you could mark the center of your screen (whereas the current system makes this impossible) depending on how the animations are done. Wouldn't work because either the sway would be consistent, which would either make CQC too easy or make long range too hard, or it would always follow the same animation, so you'd have to settle entirely for 5 seconds when you scope in even if you were settled an hour ago (unscoping and rescoping would be a hassle!).

How is it more exploitative than using a stop-watch in PR or turning all of your settings down to low? Are you implying that if such a system was in place that you and everyone else would put a dot in the center of your screen?

I fail to see how such an animation would not work in PR. Take a look at this video:

The whole point of my suggestion is that settle time for deviation is extremely low, making CQC easier. IMO, CQC in PR is broken and filled with WTF moments of disbelief and frustration. The portrayed weapon sway is also fairly minor, making longer range combat very possible, but not a laser beam war.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:I thought my word carried more weight around here....
I call BS on this, cuz it just aint true, anyone who says it is is clearly just frustrated

I simply find your assertations hard to believe as my experiences are contrary. Of course, if my opinions are contrary to yours or celestial's, they must be wrong because I'm just a noob? I'm rather obviously frustrated with the system, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here...

On the topic of settle times themselves I still find 5 seconds to be un-necessarily long. Games like ArmA and DH/RO have much less weapon sway and are more accurate. PR is trying to compensate for something that the bf2 engine just can't handle. A cone of random fire is a horrible way to represent the effects of wind and weapon sway on a bullets travel. It is important to recognize the limitations of the game engine, that PR is still a game, and that combat in PR will never actually be realistic.

google wrote: On the topic of settle times themselves I still find 5 seconds to be un-necessarily long. Games like ArmA and DH/RO have much less weapon sway and are more accurate.

I agree 100% with that part, 5 seconds is too much time IMO, RO for example, the weapon is very acurate, and still gives the true advantage to whoever is on the defending position

google wrote: PR is trying to compensate for something that the bf2 engine just can't handle. A cone of random fire is a horrible way to represent the effects of wind and weapon sway on a bullets travel. It is important to recognize the limitations of the game engine, that PR is still a game, and that combat in PR will never actually be realistic.

the deviation is a modifier that tries to take into effect what a real life soldier would experience on the battlefield. if you are saying that a soldier runs up, sees an enemy and pop accurate fire at him within at least 3 seconds then you are sorely wrong (at least on first contact, later contacts the soldier will be more aware)

on top of that the current 5 second deviation is also there to slow down the game. it simply makes the game more tactical and teamwork oriented. taking the time to cover each other and working together works in this game, and instead of just firing off the hip you have to think about what you are doing.

personally i would love to have more modifiers that could decrease the deviation time (such as real ballistics etc. but unless we find a way to hack the tracer bug this aint happening)

google wrote: I fail to see how such an animation would not work in PR. Take a look at this video:

The whole point of my suggestion is that settle time for deviation is extremely low, making CQC easier. IMO, CQC in PR is broken and filled with WTF moments of disbelief and frustration. The portrayed weapon sway is also fairly minor, making longer range combat very possible, but not a laser beam war.

iirc its because the bullets still come out the center of the screen, so the animation is just for show, if you know your screen center then it doesnt matter about the animation.

and sort your attitude out, I did not call you a n00b, don't put words in my mouth I said I found it easy to work inside this system.

and also, low settle time wouldn't help CQB, smaller max deviation would do that.

Only time I ever get killed due to deviation is when I should have changed position, but didn't. You cannot rely on your gun in PR, you must rely on your tactics to get superior position.

Sure suppressing them and flanking is a good tactic, but a better tactic will always involve the enemy not being able to retaliate.

You all are complaining about people with superior tactics and you don't even know it yet.

/Puff

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:iirc its because the bullets still come out the center of the screen, so the animation is just for show, if you know your screen center then it doesnt matter about the animation.

Did you actually read my post?

google wrote:Did you actually read my post?

wtf is your problem....

you asked a question, I answered it ffs

LithiumFox wrote: The devs did carefully modify deviation since .7. If you wanna complain, find .7 or .75 when deviation was HORRIBLE. If you even moved a little bit it completely reset. So stop whining and realize that the reason it is there this late in a BETA mod is because it WORKS.

Bolded for emphasis. It patently doesn't work. If it worked several trained soldiers wouldn't post in here every month saying it doesn't work. If it was an intuitive system, people wouldn't post these threads so often saying it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, it's a huge step up from what it was in 0.8, but it's still a trash system, and the DEVs are still more or less making the numbers up arbitrarily.

In essence deviation is a gamey system the DEVs have introduced because they can't think of anything better to enforce the style of gameplay they want (low skill threshold, long and "epic" firefights, dubious interpretation of "teamwork").

Basically the DEVs are on the record as saying they don't want the guy with better reflexes to win because of it, they want firefights to go for a long time with lots of cool suppression effects and stuff because it's more cinematic and "epic", and finally from my own interpretation of their design choices, they want the only reliable way to hit something past 200m to be to use a squad weapon to do it, or get a squad to do it (massed muskets lol).

It's been a path fraught with terrible decisions. This is the first version that hasn't had an absolutely gamebreaking trend arise from deviation. 0.7, .75, 0.8 and 0.85 all had completely unrealistic and laughable in game tactics that arose from the DEV Muskets; these tactics were also lame and ruined the game.

tl;dr deviation sucks and will always suck



Edit:

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:iirc its because the bullets still come out the center of the screen, so the animation is just for show, if you know your screen center then it doesnt matter about the animation.

and sort your attitude out, I did not call you a n00b, don't put words in my mouth I said I found it easy to work inside this system.

and also, low settle time wouldn't help CQB, smaller max deviation would do that.

There is another animation variable which can be used to completely throw people off so they don't know where the center of their screen is, it's called the camerabone and makes the camera itself move relative to the gameworld, and not just the sight picture relative to the camera. I tried to do a PoC of it two years ago but ****ing suck at animating, too hard to produce anything workable at all. More recently recoil animations were updated to include some violent movement of the camerabone, and I fail to see how the same thing couldn't be applied to some subtle sway to give a tool to reduce deviation with while retaining mechanisms to reduce player accuracy.

Also lower settle time and smaller max deviation would both help CQB, as would a new engine with hitreg that doesn't blow chunks.

please remember that there are several active and post active servicemen in the DEV team...they don't pull this stuff out of their ***. If we could better simluate that your less accurate when you've sprinted 200m, I think we would.

So please, lads be nice with your feedback. These guys spend alot of time working on this. So you don't like deviation, thats fine, say your reasons but comments like this are unfair imo as you don't see the back stage stuff

Don't get me wrong, it's a huge step up from what it was in 0.8, but it's still a trash system, and the DEVs are still more or less making the numbers up arbitrarily.

Wow, people post fast. Anyway, what's with all the hostility dude (maybe you're interpreting my posts with hostility)? The reason why I asked if you read my post is because it seems that you didn't. It was established the the animation was cosmetic during its first mention, and it's pros/cons were discussed with celestial. Your post tells me you just completely ignored what I wrote...

EDIT:

PuffNStuff wrote:Only time I ever get killed due to deviation is when I should have changed position, but didn't. You cannot rely on your gun in PR, you must rely on your tactics to get superior position.

Been playing PR since .7, do you really think most of us veterans don't understand the importance of positioning and tactics? Just because someone wants a change does not mean they are bad at the game.

The problem with the current deviation system is that it makes simple tactics like suppression useless. There is no threat of death because even if you get shot, the enemy player will most not likely be able to hit you again by the time you get to cover. Too often do I have a stare-down with an enemy player who can hit me even though I spotted/engaged him first.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]motherdear;1372576']the deviation is a modifier that tries to take into effect what a real life soldier would experience on the battlefield. if you are saying that a soldier runs up, sees an enemy and pop accurate fire at him within at least 3 seconds then you are sorely wrong (at least on first contact, later contacts the soldier will be more aware[/quote]

recognizing the enemy, crouching and aiming at them is already in the game.

According to my human factors book it takes 2 seconds to 'see' something and react, it's in a book, it must be true. I can sight a rifle in 1 second (including raising it to my shoulder). That's 3 seconds total, add a second or two for a safety margin (dodgy scope or something) and it's still half what it takes in PR, but is much more realistic. (that's 2 seconds to recognize an enemy and 3 seconds of deviation if it was confusing) between shots i can maintain accuracy by waiting up to a second. this is with 7.62x39 btw. waiting less than a second only effects grouping by a very small amount.


In the game you:
recognize the enemy (2 seconds + check map if you're still unsure)
crouch and aim (1 second + report enemy if you are in a squad)
wait for deviation to settle (6 seconds)
shoot and hit (yay)
enemy is running to cover
wait (1.5 seconds)
shoot and hit (yay)
wait (1.5 seconds)
enemy has run to cover, used a bandage and reported your position

[quote="PuffNStuff""]You all are complaining about people with superior tactics and you don't even know it yet.
/Puff[/quote]

If guns were more accurate you might see some actual tactics. Right now I can sprint across a street 100m in front of a full squad and not get hit once.