Project Reality Forums

m1oh7 wrote:just for your informational purposes the usmc and the army are now shifting over to a whole squad as a sniper team, I can attest to this as i am in one but i dont really think it would matter much in game considering this engine cant support more than 64 player games, now with the arma 2 engine this will open the snipers job to epic proportions because we will be able to have gigantinormous games with all sorts of crew served and other hvt's to take shots at as needed.


For an example on the whole squad

1 squad leader who usually handles the commo and all that good shit

2 the actual sniper

3 spotter

4 security/ secondary shooter depending on mission

5 security

6 security


now this can go onto 8 and ive actually worked with 10 but that was an amazing pain in the *** to coordinate.

Not questioning your experience but how much of this change has been in response to a switch to unconventional warfare against paramilitary forces? Ie. against the Taliban in Afghanistan etc.

For me the sniper kit should disapear period. Nothing good comes from it. In public server, it is rare to see a (good?) sniper spotting, shooting valuable targets, and so on.
All the snipers I see are from BF2, lonewolfing, going always at the same spots, get killed after 2 mins losing their kit for the enemy and have a terrible team score.

The kit is just useful for clan match, tournaments and such when they actually know how to use the kit properly (I think maybe ^^).

Nick_Gunar wrote: The kit is just useful for clan match, tournaments and such when they actually know how to use the kit properly (I think maybe ^^).

not using sniper kits just because of that is a waste of ressoruces.
renaming the sniperkit ("scout" or whatever) would mean to remove the sniper from the game. and thats not realistic at all.
lonewolfing has nothing to do with bf2, ts just the best way of using a sniper kit, if you dont want to be found and killed...
and as a sniper youve always a bad teamscore cause you just dont get team points for anythng you are doing, except for kill assists, and you all are saying you shouldnt shoot as a sniper.
its just ridiculous

Zoddom wrote:not using sniper kits just because of that is a waste of ressoruces.
renaming the sniperkit ("scout" or whatever) would mean to remove the sniper from the game. and thats not realistic at all.

Neither is your suggestion that Snipers should always go it alone to avoid being spotted. Use some spacing, maintain good comms with your spotter while moving from perch to perch, it's not difficult to do and means you have an extra guy who can put fire down if and when it is required.

Zoddom wrote:lonewolfing has nothing to do with bf2, ts just the best way of using a sniper kit, if you dont want to be found and killed...

Not true, why would an extra man who is NOT shooting cause you to be spotted more easily? as long as your spotter understands his role as an observer then you'll be fine.

Zoddom wrote:and as a sniper youve always a bad teamscore cause you just dont get team points for anythng you are doing, except for kill assists, and you all are saying you shouldnt shoot as a sniper.
its just ridiculous

On city maps such as Muttrah I'll position myself looking down one of the roads looking south, this limits my view somewhat but it also means that I am well concealed, can effectively stop anything other than armour moving up that road and due to the range and limit of my view, my spotter can keep an eye on any potential entrances to my perch and provide effective fire on targets outside of my view at close range. If I want a sniper kit on Muttrah, I only have to look in three different places, the hotel roof, the crane and the mountains that run west of the map, this is why people get killed, because they're idiots.

No one has said you shouldn't shoot as a sniper, and no one said that the sniper rifle should be removed, you need to start taking the time to actually read what people are saying, because this is the second time you've pulled some random reason to continue your flawed arguments, so please, stop being simple. As has been pointed out by myself and others, snipers DO kill things, but that is NOT their main role, their main role is to provide intelligence and communicate this back to the Commander, if a target should appear such as an enemy officer or a manned enemy tow, then the sniper is required to take them out. A silencer wont help things, as when you fire, you should be looking for another perch, everyone will tell you this. The only snipers that get spotted and killed are the ones that stay in the same place, I have only encountered one sniper who has actually moved from perch to perch and that was a Russian guy on Beirut, the guy pinned down my squad as well as two others because he would fire and move, preventing us from gauging exactly where his position was and therefore preventing us from launching an attack against it.

A bad team score is inescapable on PR as a sniper unless you move forward into cap ranges and such on maps, but then again, the score doesn't matter, if you get the commander saying that that you did a good job, then that is your team score The whole point of the OPs suggestion was to make people realise that Snipers shouldn't rely so heavily on their sniper rifle, that is secondary to their main role, it's akin to a Medic being your point man in a squad, it's not his role, his role is to stay alive and heal/revive others.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Neither is your suggestion that Snipers should always go it alone to avoid being spotted. Use some spacing, maintain good comms with your spotter while moving from perch to perch, it's not difficult to do and means you have an extra guy who can put fire down if and when it is required.




Not true, why would an extra man who is NOT shooting cause you to be spotted more easily? as long as your spotter understands his role as an observer then you'll be fine.



On city maps such as Muttrah I'll position myself looking down one of the roads looking south, this limits my view somewhat but it also means that I am well concealed, can effectively stop anything other than armour moving up that road and due to the range and limit of my view, my spotter can keep an eye on any potential entrances to my perch and provide effective fire on targets outside of my view at close range. If I want a sniper kit on Muttrah, I only have to look in three different places, the hotel roof, the crane and the mountains that run west of the map, this is why people get killed, because they're idiots.

No one has said you shouldn't shoot as a sniper, and no one said that the sniper rifle should be removed, you need to start taking the time to actually read what people are saying, because this is the second time you've pulled some random reason to continue your flawed arguments, so please, stop being simple. As has been pointed out by myself and others, snipers DO kill things, but that is NOT their main role, their main role is to provide intelligence and communicate this back to the Commander, if a target should appear such as an enemy officer or a manned enemy tow, then the sniper is required to take them out. A silencer wont help things, as when you fire, you should be looking for another perch, everyone will tell you this. The only snipers that get spotted and killed are the ones that stay in the same place, I have only encountered one sniper who has actually moved from perch to perch and that was a Russian guy on Beirut.

A bad team score is inescapable on PR as a sniper unless you move forward into cap ranges and such on maps, but then again, the score doesn't matter, if you get the commander saying that that you did a good job, then that is your team score The whole point of the OPs suggestion was to make people realise that Snipers shouldn't rely so heavily on their sniper rifle, that is secondary to their main role, it's akin to a Medic being your point man in a squad, it's not his role, his role is to stay alive and heal/revive others.

This post has so much win in it, it makes my pants fit funny.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote: Not true, why would an extra man who is NOT shooting cause you to be spotted more easily? as long as your spotter understands his role as an observer then you'll be fine.

cmon, start thinking, its obvious taht two men are easier to spot than only one.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:On city maps such as Muttrah I'll position myself looking down one of the roads looking south, this limits my view somewhat but it also means that I am well concealed, can effectively stop anything other than armour moving up that road and due to the range and limit of my view, my spotter can keep an eye on any potential entrances to my perch and provide effective fire on targets outside of my view at close range. If I want a sniper kit on Muttrah, I only have to look in three different places, the hotel roof, the crane and the mountains that run west of the map, this is why people get killed, because they're idiots.

fine. and what did you want to say with this?

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:No one has said you shouldn't shoot as a sniper, and no one said that the sniper rifle should be removed, you need to start taking the time to actually read what people are saying, because this is the second time you've pulled some random reason to continue your flawed arguments, so please, stop being simple.

and I never said that you wanted to remove it... start reading yourself, i only said renaming would mean to remove the sniper, and i didnt mean the rifle, but the kit and snipers as specialists in the shooting at long distances who achieve their combat mission through the selective and targeted use of their firearms.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:As has been pointed out by myself and others, snipers DO kill things, but that is NOT their main role, their main role is to provide intelligence and communicate this back to the Commander, if a target should appear such as an enemy officer or a manned enemy tow, then the sniper is required to take them out.

and as has been tried to be pointed out by MYself, recon missions are nearly useless in the scenarios/situations given ingame, because you generally know what assets the enemy can use at which time and the most spotting is done by squadleaders anyway. additionally you usually hear enemy vehicles long b4 they see you.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:A silencer wont help things, as when you fire, you should be looking for another perch, everyone will tell you this.

thats the biggest bullshit ive ever heard man. using a silencer provides you a much bigger time frame to get away and confuses/demoralize the enemy much more than without a silencer.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:I have only encountered one sniper who has actually moved from perch to perch and that was a Russian guy on Beirut, the guy pinned down my squad as well as two others because he would fire and move, preventing us from gauging exactly where his position was and therefore preventing us from launching an attack against it.

i just want to point out that youre wrong if you think this is a good tactic. Movin from perch to perch but always firing at the same group of people is so dangerous. even if you couldnt have launched a counter attack, the position of the sniper is found out at any time. and then it will be reported to commander/friendly troups nearby, who can take out the sniper from behind.
As it says in the loading screen "if you cant kill it, leave it alone or it will kill you".
theres no use in changing position but then engaging the same target again.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:A bad team score is inescapable on PR as a sniper unless you move forward into cap ranges and such on maps, but then again, the score doesn't matter, if you get the commander saying that that you did a good job, then that is your team score The whole point of the OPs suggestion was to make people realise that Snipers shouldn't rely so heavily on their sniper rifle, that is secondary to their main role, it's akin to a Medic being your point man in a squad, it's not his role, his role is to stay alive and heal/revive others.

Zoddom wrote:and as has been tried to be pointed out by MYself, recon missions are nearly useless in the scenarios/situations given ingame, because you generally what assets the enemy can use at which time and the most spotting is done by squadleaders anyway. additionally you usually hear enemy vehicles long b4 they see you.

Zoddom wrote:cmon, start thinking, its obvious taht two men are easier to spot than only one.

Technically, yes, two men would be easier to spot, but it all depends on how those two are moving and the distance between them, when moving from perch to perch I will generally allow my spotter to go first, up to 50m in front of me, technically we are then working alone, couple this with moving through areas such as forests and city blocks and you're essentially moving by yourself. The benefits of working as a pair however far outweigh working alone, an extra pair of eyes looking where you cannot is always an advantage, there is no benefit other than hypothetically being less obvious to the other team. You will also find that you will get slotted far quicker working alone than you would as a pair, a spotter covering behind you while you scan the area to your front means that you will at least have some warning if and when the enemy find your position.

Zoddom wrote:fine. and what did you want to say with this?

I was referring to an earlier post regarding sniping from hilltops and such on city maps because you can't snipe from within the city, I just forgot to quote it.

Zoddom wrote:and I never said that you wanted to remove it... start reading yourself, i only said renaming would mean to remove the sniper, and i didnt mean the rifle, but the kit and snipers as specialists in the shooting at long distances who achieve their combat mission through the selective and targeted use of their firearms.

To quote you on page 4 -

Zoddom wrote:exactly this is what im trying to say all the time . . .
a sniper without is rifle is not a sniper, a sniper is not for nothing in german called
"Scharfschütze", which literally means sharpshooter.

I assumed the post on this page was an echo of what you had said before, if not, then, please, maintain some consistency in your standpoint.

Zoddom wrote:and as has been tried to be pointed out by MYself, recon missions are nearly useless in the scenarios/situations given ingame, because you generally know what assets the enemy can use at which time and the most spotting is done by squadleaders anyway. additionally you usually hear enemy vehicles long b4 they see you.

As part of a sniper team, one of you will be a squad leader, therefore you will be spotting targets, if you're working alone then surely you're a squadleader and have comms with the commander? As a Sniper you are also in a better position to spot targets simply because you're keeping a low profile and are working "behind enemy lines". Reconnaissance is your mission, it is not something you do other than sniping, you can quite easily snipe and perform your reconnaissance duties at the same time. When playing as commander, I get constant reports from squadleaders detailing where enemy armour is on the map and that information is incredibly valuable when you are trying to get units around the map safely and effectively, a sniper giving me this information is just as important.

Zoddom wrote:thats the biggest bullshit ive ever heard man. using a silencer provides you a much bigger time frame to get away and confuses/demoralize the enemy much more than without a silencer.

Do you see many snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan using silencers? Do you know of any military that provides their snipers with silencers other than perhaps within SOF?

Zoddom wrote:i just want to point out that youre wrong if you think this is a good tactic. Movin from perch to perch but always firing at the same group of people is so dangerous. even if you couldnt have launched a counter attack, the position of the sniper is found out at any time. and then it will be reported to commander/friendly troups nearby, who can take out the sniper from behind.
As it says in the loading screen "if you cant kill it, leave it alone or it will kill you".
theres no use in changing position but then engaging the same target again.

Have you attempted to use this tactic? Or are you just saying that you THINK it is a bad idea? My comments are based on personal experience as well as the numerous posts made in this thread and others that shoot and scoot is the best way to keep yourself hidden.

It does not matter which group you are firing at, you are there to pin squads down, do you cease fire upon taking out one target? Of course you don't, I know I don't, if I see a squad moving up on a cap, I'm not going to take out their SL and watch them revive him and move on, I will continually put rounds down at that squad until they give up and retreat or are taken out by friendly forces while they are in their weakened state.

The position of this sniper was not found by myself or any of the other squad leaders, we were forced to retreat and take a different route to the cap, forcing us into taking a route that limited our effectiveness and allowed the enemy team to capitalise on the fact that our team could not flank. The first contact report in this situation was one of my rifleman saying that we had a sniper north, but he did not know the distance or the location, and I assume this is when the sniper moved position, as no more shots were fired from that direction. If the sniper had continued to fire from that position I'm quite sure we would have been able to accurately pinpoint where he was, allowing us to tell other squads exactly where he was. Moving from position to position meant that we were just as clueless and couldn't gauge where he was, which is exactly what a Sniper wants to achieve.

Do not assume that a snipers position is inevitably found, I am quite sure that a number of people on these forums will disagree with you when it comes to effective use of the sniper kit, as far as you have explained, you believe that a sniper in a static position and a silencer will own everything, when in reality this could not be further from the truth.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote: You will also find that you will get slotted far quicker working alone than you would as a pair, a spotter covering behind you while you scan the area to your front means that you will at least have some warning if and when the enemy find your position.

now explain HOW THIS prevents getting spotted? either your spotter will kill that enemy or youll do. and then you ARE spotted.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote: a sniper giving me this information is just as important.

you answer yourself back. if regular squads reporting are just as important as snipers reporting, why not letting them do that job and using the sniper to pin down enemies at long distances-

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Do you see many snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan using silencers? Do you know of any military that provides their snipers with silencers other than perhaps within SOF?

I will be cursed for saying this, but there is no real war, neither in iraq nor in afghanistan.
would you send your snpers out without silencers in a real war? where the enemy will arrest your sniper if found and forcing to tell intel to them?

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Have you attempted to use this tactic? Or are you just saying that you THINK it is a bad idea? My comments are based on personal experience as well as the numerous posts made in this thread and others that shoot and scoot is the best way to keep yourself hidden.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:If the sniper had continued to fire from that position I'm quite sure we would have been able to accurately pinpoint where he was, allowing us to tell other squads exactly where he was. Moving from position to position meant that we were just as clueless and couldn't gauge where he was, which is exactly what a Sniper wants to achieve.

Do not assume that a snipers position is inevitably found, I am quite sure that a number of people on these forums will disagree with you when it comes to effective use of the sniper kit, as far as you have explained, you believe that a sniper in a static position and a silencer will own everything, when in reality this could not be further from the truth.

i did not say leaving your spot is a bad tactic dude. you misunderstood me. i said not chaning your target if you cant kill it is a bad tactic.
cause when the same sniper is firing twice from different directions (if you dont know the distance you can guess by angle) you can guess by the time between the shots and the distance he moved in this time where he was before and where he is now.

I'm of the mind that most of the players that are taking the sniper kit are unilaterally useless at ANYTHING ELSE.

bazza_1964 wrote:I'm of the mind that most of the players that are taking the sniper kit are unilaterally useless at ANYTHING ELSE.

that might be true, but only because those players who could use the kit right and effectivly cantt take it because there are always noobs requesting it all the time.
but most of the experienced players wouldnt use it as effective as possible, because the idea of shooting as less as possible is so popular with them.
I was sniper on karbala yesterday in the LB squad. I lased targets for the pilots, however i got much more kills as they had and stayed alive till 10 minutes before the round ended,
becasue i just couldnt always wait for the helis to hit every target i spotted, there where civilians among the insurgents who picked up their rpgs when the LB returned to base again. Those where high priority targets because they were threats for our APCs and inf moving in after the LBs fly-by. And i did only lase targets when there was a group of insurgents. Most targets were alone on rooftops or trying to cross the road with RPGs. In these situations, spotting was just useless and wouldve endangered our troups nearby because the APC or LB wouldnt just not be fast enough to take out the threat.

Where do people the the idea that a snipers primary role is gathering intelligence ? Maybe if he is special forces. But I am guessing a sniper usually does have some kind of link to pass on anything he observes to the team. A radio would not be bad addition. However many people pick up the sniper kit on weird maps, where you cant see beyond 300m for example, which kind of defeats the idea of sniping, unless there is a lot of cover from which you can harrass the enemy.

Zoddom wrote:now explain HOW THIS prevents getting spotted? either your spotter will kill that enemy or youll do. and then you ARE spotted.

Well, technically it doesn't really make you any more stealthy, neither does it make you less stealthy. I would much rather have my spotter tell me on voip that there is an enemy squad behind us, and that we should probably lay low so we do not give our position away, than letting off a round and giving my position away because I did not know the enemy were there.

Zoddom wrote:you answer yourself back. if regular squads reporting are just as important as snipers reporting, why not letting them do that job and using the sniper to pin down enemies at long distances-

You are focusing on an idealised situation, you have already noted that a sniper shouldn't give his position away, citing lonewolfing as being the preferred method of achieving this (which I disagree with, but oh well), would you open fire on an enemy squad at a FOB without any backup and without the commander knowing what you will be shooting at? I am not saying Snipers should provide intelligence over all else, but intelligence should be your main priority, and who said you cannot shoot and provide intel at the same time? My biggest fault with the sniper class at the moment is that the vast majority of people who pick up the sniper kit do not provide the intelligence that they are in a much better position to provide.

Think about it for a second, you said that the sniper should be left to do his job pinning down the enemy, what makes you think that a squadleader and his squad are there to provide intelligence? The infantry squads are what make or break a game, relegating them to intelligence gathering is stupid and the squads main role should be the taking of objectives rather than spotting enemy forces that the sniper can do WHILE he is providing effective fire on that target.

Zoddom wrote:I will be cursed for saying this, but there is no real war, neither in iraq nor in afghanistan.
would you send your snpers out without silencers in a real war? where the enemy will arrest your sniper if found and forcing to tell intel to them?

I do not really think a silencer would make that much of a difference given the distances that snipers operate in combat zones these days, silencers have numerous drawbacks which can hinder a snipers effectiveness at long range and so you have to factor these in before deciding what would be better. Most people are of the belief that you simply screw a silencer onto the barrel of a rifle and it makes the rifle completely silent, I hope you're not one of these people.

Zoddom wrote:i did not say leaving your spot is a bad tactic dude. you misunderstood me. i said not chaning your target if you cant kill it is a bad tactic.
cause when the same sniper is firing twice from different directions (if you dont know the distance you can guess by angle) you can guess by the time between the shots and the distance he moved in this time where he was before and where he is now.

He was killing my team members though, and due to the amount of casualties, we were too preoccupied with getting everyone up to focus on identifying the snipers position. Also, identifying where a sniper is shooting from is not as easy as you make it out to be, I'm starting to question whether or not you've actually played this game.

JohnnyTheIED wrote:Sniper needs a grapple hook badly.

I know if it did have one,it could boost the role of a sniper and his/her effectiveness.

Web_cole wrote:Yeah, if snipers do get the radio, I kind of like the idea of having it in the 'main' slot. It's subtle, but hopefully people would get the message. And even if they didn't, it would allow people to say "Why the hell do you think the radio is in the main slot? Go spot some enemies ffs!"

If they do get a Radio they could get like a different set of building things like,Tarp,Leaning box,binocular spotting area etc.That would be sweet.

Infantry1242 wrote:I know if it did have one,it could boost the role of a sniper and his/her effectiveness.

If they do get a Radio they could get like a different set of building things like,Tarp,Leaning box,binocular spotting area etc.That would be sweet.

Take a spotter with the Specialist class, that would be a better option and wouldn't boost the Sniper class. The Sniper class really doesn't need anything added to it, maybe a radio, but that is overcome by having an officer as your spotter.

The building idea could work, but it doesn't really scream "stealth", I cant really see what snipers could build to make them more effective, unless it was a hill scrape or something, but it would be so shoddy graphically that you'd be better off just lying in the bushes.

im getting the feeling that our discussion about the mainrole of a sniper is actually senseless.
I mean, if im a sniper, i will report my contacts automatically (unless im a squadleader and theres no commander, but then i try it with teamchat) even if i take in hand to just concentrate on my targets. Sometimes you just have to report enemies as a sniper because it would be useless to attack a whole squad yourself (or if you found a cache/fob, what do you do as a sniper then? reporting, of course, i dont think that there are many players who wouldnt) -> my point is now, that your point of concentrating on spotting is needless, because you dont really have to concentrate, you just do it while youre choosing your target.

but being a sniper is very difficult these days. I havent seen any server with a commander the past week-end and finding a good and willing spotter is a pretty hard thing, too.

Zoddom wrote:im getting the feeling that our discussion about the mainrole of a sniper is actually senseless.
I mean, if im a sniper, i will report my contacts automatically (unless im a squadleader and theres no commander, but then i try it with teamchat) even if i take in hand to just concentrate on my targets. Sometimes you just have to report enemies as a sniper because it would be useless to attack a whole squad yourself (or if you found a cache/fob, what do you do as a sniper then? reporting, of course, i dont think that there are many players who wouldnt) -> my point is now, that your point of concentrating on spotting is needless, because you dont really have to concentrate, you just do it while youre choosing your target.

To be honest, spotting should be left to....your spotter, but taking away the binos from the sniper will just lead to more lonewolfing, perhaps there should be some way to apply for the position of sniper? or to restrict snipers to squads of two, but punishing upon that squad being reduced to one?

Zoddom wrote:but being a sniper is very difficult these days. I havent seen any server with a commander the past week-end and finding a good and willing spotter is a pretty hard thing, too.

And there lies the problem, when I'm back from vacation, I'd be more than happy to come spot for you

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:To be honest, spotting should be left to....your spotter, but taking away the binos from the sniper will just lead to more lonewolfing, perhaps there should be some way to apply for the position of sniper? or to restrict snipers to squads of two, but punishing upon that squad being reduced to one?

yeah .. imo they should either give the sniper a normal binocular and the CE a GLTD or they should keep the sniper kit as it is now and change it to two kits per squad
and try to arrange that those two kits are only allowed in the same squad, so there is always one sniper squad per team with both of the sniper kits and theres always one member spotting and the other shooting. then they could change roles all the time.

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:And there lies the problem, when I'm back from vacation, I'd be more than happy to come spot for you

tahts nice to hear

You can't win a round without a sniper, they are the kits which decide all rounds, especially with their armor tipped bullets.

I mean, how are attack helo's going to hit lased targets? It's not like the gunner can lase it on his own. - Sarcasm

Why not create a spotter kit, with grappling hook, and an extra patch, radio, and a weapon that has an optical sight? Which is essentially an officer's kit.

The spotter can only be requested by the squad leader, and the sniper can only be requested if SL has the spotter kit. Or would this be impossible?

Because if we did that, we could limit it to 1 sniper and 1 spotter per team, rather than 2 snipers.

I disagree with the radio being in the sniper's inventory, the sniper isn't the one determining distance and extra, I believe that's the spotter's role is to evaluate the situation and report back?

Just a suggestion, but I think removing 1 sniper kit, and maybe adding a spotter kit could help.

blues&royalsdylan wrote: The spotter can only be requested by the squad leader, and the sniper can only be requested if SL has the spotter kit. Or would this be impossible?

Because if we did that, we could limit it to 1 sniper and 1 spotter per team, rather than 2 snipers.

hmm i dont like this idea, i think mine is much more effective, easier and more realistic, cause a sniper team usually consists out of two snipers, who can change roles anytime.