Suggestions to improve Insurgency.

[Dev1200]

To all of the developers, I know you are watching and reading this thread. Please take into account the current situation of Insurgency and then compare it to my suggestions. Humbly I ask that you test these suggestions on a public level to find out how these would turn out in the end.

How would banning players that happen to kill a civilian make the game better? Remove players from the BLUFOR team, cause instability in the team's playercount, assets, etc. Basically cause frustration over little gain. You can still destroy caches if you kill civilians. Having a cache location spotted makes the entire blufor team swarm around it, and since the marker is so accurate now, it makes it obvious to which building it is in, and not guesswork and searching.

Players and their team are already punished brutally if you happen to kill a civilian. No limited kits means no taking assets, medic kits, etc. High respawn time, reducing score, etc.


What you want is for players to understand that killing civilians is wrong. If so, play on a teamwork server, like PRTA. People that actually know how to play the game usually play there

[USMCMIDN]

Did anyone read my post I made earlier about that round on the H server... Leave it the way it is... if you kill civis it is a huge downfall to the good guys.

[BenHamish]

I almost choked on my eggnog reading this line. If you've read the manual, which I'm sure you haven't, it would read:

If you shoot civilians outside of these rules, you will face several penalties:
After your next death you will respawn 120 seconds later per civilian shot
(stacks up to 5 minutes additional delay)
You will not be able to request any kits for 10 minutes
Your score is reduced to 0 and the kill will not be listed on the scoreboard
Your team loses 10 intelligence points

Mainly 10 intel points, per civilian kill. That means if you die as a martyr 5 times as a civilian, which isn't a difficult feat mind you, the enemy team will have to kill 50 more insurgents in order to acquire intel. Now, have a whole squad doing this, and you get instant profit.

They are hardly punishments.. Basically you have time to go take a leak, and can't get a request kit. What request kits do you actually need? It's already fish in a barrel.

Intelligence points are irrelevant from what i've witnessed, and as for a virtual score - nobody cares. The K:D is what people care about on Blufor, it's why you play Ins as Blue.

USMCMIDN mate, good on you for going out there and being a Civvy again for a refresher. After that though, don't you feel that being a civvy is a bit pointless? They have no effect on Blufor tactics (which is why I thought they were in the game, to make Ins different and unique).


Edit: Dev1200, the same tactics that USMCMIDN found wrt civvys on ]H[ occur on PRTA. People know morally that killing civvys is wrong, but this is a game and there are no immediate (or arguably prolonged) negative effects, so the civvy is useless at preventing enemy fire.

Also, to whoever mentioned 'collateral damage', that isn't a consequence of war, per se. It's a public relations name for a consequence of war - civilian casualties.

[Haji with a Handgun]

This idea is no good. As a collaborator I constantly throw myself into the path of AAVs, Tanks, Humvees, anything that can martyr me. If all the players who kill me get banned then where does the server pop go?

[BenHamish]

It should also be mentioned that the manual describes the Civvy kit but doesn't say what it's uses are. I'm therefore presuming that it's purpose is to cause as much damage to Blufor as possible in any way possible (inluding griefing tanks).

What is the Civvy kit for?

In my view it is to change the game dynamic from the conventional warfare found on other maps, and to immerse the Blue player more by having to choose carefully what he shoots at.

At the mo I think it fails.. But my problem may be that i've got the wrong end of the stick. Let us know what you think it's for guys and then we can work towards a set goal.

[USMCMIDN]

They are hardly punishments.. Basically you have time to go take a leak, and can't get a request kit. What request kits do you actually need? It's already fish in a barrel.

Intelligence points are irrelevant from what i've witnessed, and as for a virtual score - nobody cares. The K:D is what people care about on Blufor, it's why you play Ins as Blue.

USMCMIDN mate, good on you for going out there and being a Civvy again for a refresher. After that though, don't you feel that being a civvy is a bit pointless? They have no effect on Blufor tactics (which is why I thought they were in the game, to make Ins different and unique).


Edit: Dev1200, the same tactics that USMCMIDN found wrt civvys on ]H[ occur on PRTA. People know morally that killing civvys is wrong, but this is a game and there are no immediate (or arguably prolonged) negative effects, so the civvy is useless at preventing enemy fire.

Also, to whoever mentioned 'collateral damage', that isn't a consequence of war, per se. It's a public relations name for a consequence of war - civilian casualties.

Well my point was the good guys lost because of the civi kills. They were a good team a very well stacked team and after the civi kills they simply did not get the intel needed to win and lost.

[mat552]

What is the Civvy kit for?

The stated goal for the Collaborator kit is to force Coalition players to think before they pull the trigger, to represent forces that aren't out and out helping the Insurgents and people that might not look good on CNN.

I again remind everyone that there are no Civilians in PR. None. Zip. Nada.

The Civilian Collaborator kit is just that, a collaborator. They have picked their side, they've seen or heard what the coalition forces can do, and they've still chosen not to leave peacefully. They are members in the insurgency and should be treated as such.

You won't ever be able to force players to feel remorse or guilt over their targets in PR. It's a numbers game, pure and simple, no morality besides what we bring in. It's fun to roleplay, but only if everyone's playing by the same rules. If you, as a collaborator, do something absolutely retarded like play dance dance revolution directly in front of a tank, you're not going to last very long.

[Bringerof_D]

these all sound great, my only objections is #8 particularly about hide outs. obviously IRL a hide out isnt something an insurgent wouldbuild at the beginning of the fight, but something that would have been pre established weeks to months prior to the conflict. it is used to simulate a borrowed basement of your friends house or the like. Thus needing to shovel it already compensates for the need to supply it

[Dev1200]

What you are actually suggesting is that people don't kill civilians.. and how to punish them by forcing them off servers or other ridiculous punishments. Sure, it's annoying when people are hurps and don't know the ROE, but as long as I don't have any civi kills, I'm happy. Which you should be too. But instead other people have to suffer because you don't like getting killed / Other people killing civis. (:

[frankwilliam]

civilians get killed everyday

Id say it would be more realistic to remove all the punishments and implement some kind of cover up system

[BenHamish]

Well my point was the good guys lost because of the civi kills. They were a good team a very well stacked team and after the civi kills they simply did not get the intel needed to win and lost.

Fair enough - Usually (on PRTA) it seems that the Unknown caches are readily revealed/found out, and thus IP seems a bit irrelevant.

Also, good point about the Collaborator kit, forgot whao said it but yes, it is an Insurgent KIT - Not a Civilian.

As such I can accept that it's fine for Blufor to just mow down Civvys, it is basically a strategic choice. With this in mind though I do think it should be slightly more punished (in terms of making the game harder for Blufor)..

Note: I usually play Basrah, which it seems is easier than Falluja for Blufor. The more chance of a cache spawning in an isolated/open are on a map, the easier it is for Blufor.

[Spec]

Intelligence is not required if you know what your doing.

*giggles*

As for the civie kit: I begin to think it might be better to either create a completely new system or get rid of it. I don't like the current collaborator kit.

[mat552]

The problem here is what do we replace it with Spec?

The idea was absolutely brilliant when it was first released, and still held out for a version or two after words.

The problem is, it's totally outdated, a relic from when there were still Apaches on Basrah and before. The ideas are sound, but the execution relies on a lot older game concepts than aren't really workable at this point.

I try not to complain too much without adding in a suggestion, and I do want to point out that there have been a lot of fixes attempted, we just haven't found the sweet spot yet.

[ComradeHX]

You won't ever be able to force players to feel remorse or guilt over their targets in PR. It's a numbers game, pure and simple, no morality besides what we bring in. It's fun to roleplay, but only if everyone's playing by the same rules. If you, as a collaborator, do something absolutely retarded like play dance dance revolution directly in front of a tank, you're not going to last very long.

You know what make them not last long? arrest.

Is it in PR? Yes.

/discussion.
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Current insurgency is great...
If a tank or APC lacks anyone with a shotgun/restrainer inside(...not sure how it can happen...) then it deserves to lose intel and get blown up.