Project Reality Forums

Okay, I guess my arguments weren't properly understood. So I'll return to my first statement: You should know when you can shoot a cow, and when you can shoot a coin from five meters. Now, certain things in games cannot resemble real life, you cannot feel the heart beat of the soldier, you cannot control your own breathing and so on. These are attributes that effect accurate gunfire. However, in Pr you don't get to know your cone of fire which you should do in real life. As you fire five consecutive rounds with a rifle, you would feel that the weapon starts to kick with you not being able to control it. This you don't do in PR, which creates a guessing game or waiting (camping) game. Don't say I'm inexperienced, that's just a dull argument. Do a test with a accuracy meter, like on the HAT, that is my point. In real life you WOULD KNOW the difference between hitting a cow or coin from five meters.

Has this ever been tried, I guess it was a choice not to put it in for rifles and so fourth since the hat has it.

Would be nice to try such a meter in game, if it hasn't before.

PoisonBill wrote:Okay, I guess my arguments weren't properly understood. So I'll return to my first statement: You should know when you can shoot a cow, and when you can shoot a coin from five meters. Now, certain things in games cannot resemble real life, you cannot feel the heart beat of the soldier, you cannot control your own breathing and so on. These are attributes that effect accurate gunfire. However, in Pr you don't get to know your cone of fire which you should do in real life. As you fire five consecutive rounds with a rifle, you would feel that the weapon starts to kick with you not being able to control it. This you don't do in PR, which creates a guessing game or waiting (camping) game. Don't say I'm inexperienced, that's just a dull argument. Do a test with a accuracy meter, like on the HAT, that is my point. In real life you WOULD KNOW the difference between hitting a cow or coin from five meters.

Count ffs, really, it's not that hard, when you go in position you simply start counting, I always do that and hardly ever miss my target.

Brainlaag wrote:Count ffs, really, it's not that hard, when you go in position you simply start counting, I always do that and hardly ever miss my target.

Either you don't understand my point, or you are ignorant about the fact that it is unrealistic.

PoisonBill wrote:Either you don't understand my point, or you are ignorant about the fact that it is unrealistic.

The devs have chosen the current implementation because of it's overall realism, not necessarily the 'shooting' realism. I played with 0 deviation, a tiny bit (0.75 was it?), way too much (0.8 ) and then the *right* amount since 0.85/0.9. Mosquill implemented a deviation indicator (unobtrusive colour changing icon in the bottom right) at the same time as adjustable grenadier sights. The grenadier sights are in the game, but the deviation indicator is not. Here's a video from 2 years ago:



The conclusion, in short, is that you're probably wasting your time pushing for this as it's already been considered and rejected by the devs.

Mj Pain wrote: Deviation is good and better than it has ever been. Back in 0.8 you really needed the hole squad to take down one enemy

The rage on the forums was indescribable.

Psyrus wrote:The devs have chosen the current implementation because of it's overall realism, not necessarily the 'shooting' realism. I played with 0 deviation, a tiny bit (0.75 was it?), way too much (0.8 ) and then the *right* amount since 0.85/0.9. Mosquill implemented a deviation indicator (unobtrusive colour changing icon in the bottom right) at the same time as adjustable grenadier sights. The grenadier sights are in the game, but the deviation indicator is not. Here's a video from 2 years ago:



The conclusion, in short, is that you're probably wasting your time pushing for this as it's already been considered and rejected by the devs.

Hmm that's what I expected. But, i'm not wasting my time really. Even if the Devs made a decision I'm forwarding my opinion in this discussion. I'm sure that the DEVs had a solid reason for their choice, and I'm more interested to discuss that then pale answers, eg. DEVs choose it, so de facto it's now written in stone.

Edit: Noticed that you wrote probably now, understand what you mean.

The best implementation for what they're actually aiming for is AA2. You had a breathing meter which made it a little less realistic, but I knew whether i'd hit my targets or not. The current system is a poor handicap at best.

I'm sure it would be possible to do a better implementation where every other second while i'm standing still my deviation changes to simulate the effect breathing has on my shooting. The current system works for movement, but is excessive in implementation.

Murphy wrote:Or you could practice and get the timings down on your own so you don't need a cross-hair (crutch) telling you when to shoot. Everyone has problems with deviation from time to time, but with practice and patience you will begin to instinctively judge the cone of fire.

Brainlaag wrote:Count ffs, really, it's not that hard, when you go in position you simply start counting, I always do that and hardly ever miss my target.

All of this^

I'm not a military expert to understand if the current deviation is just as accurate as in RL. However, it's proven to be very effective if you play your cards right. Namely timing, position and stance. The only issue that I can see here is the average player being able to master all of these without the need of a crutch (like the deviation visual indicator).

Personally, I think it's fine the way it is. Most people complain about close range firefights but that's usually due to some ignorance.
I don't like to be one of those cocky ******** that tell people how things should be done and that it's your fault, but learn how to hip fire properly. Often see my surprised squad mates or enemies bursting mindlessly like it would eventually hit someone. Just center the damn screen (to the target) while doing it and you will achieve wonderful results.

Indicator.

If you know the timings good for you (clap in the back).

But in real life people don't count Missisippis before they shoot, get my point? If something is to be done to the deviation, give us an indicator. Or some kind of breath thing which sets in when you are "quite" accurate.

YOU should know the difference between shooting a coin or a cow from 5 meters. Simple as that... If you can give me a non conservative answer to that, go ahead.

PoisonBill wrote: YOU should know the difference between shooting a coin or a cow from 5 meters. Simple as that... If you can give me a non conservative answer to that, go ahead.

You're 100% right, YOU should know by instinct not by having some visual cue when it's time to shoot. Just like in reality keep practicing with your weapon(s) and you will get the feel, good shooters are forged through practice not born. I feel PR has actually done a fairly nice job translating this into the game, first time players just don't know how to handle a weapon like a seasoned player. Apparently some players never learn and decide to post threads that only point out they have a lack of patience to learn the mechanic like every other PR player has had to. You want a crutch where the game was obviously intended not to have one, at this rate I want the old vBF2 cross-hairs back so I can shoot from the hip easier.

Murphy wrote:You're 100% right, YOU should know by instinct not by having some visual cue when it's time to shoot. Just like in reality keep practicing with your weapon(s) and you will get the feel, good shooters are forged through practice not born. I feel PR has actually done a fairly nice job translating this into the game, first time players just don't know how to handle a weapon like a seasoned player. Apparently some players never learn and decide to post threads that only point out they have a lack of patience to learn the mechanic like every other PR player has had to. You want a crutch where the game was obviously intended not to have one, at this rate I want the old vBF2 cross-hairs back so I can shoot from the hip easier.

You didn't read my earlier posts. What the soldier feels you can't feel. Heart rate, breath rate, shaky fingers, goose bumps or itchy eye. All these are factors we can feel and sense in real life, and they can affect aiming. Without a indicator you are guessing how "your" solider feels with help of the factor, time.

"first time players just don't know how to handle a weapon like a seasoned player." - Do you know me, boy? драк...

If you're belly aching about deviation how can you say you have it mastered. There is no guessing, the settle times are a science not random, they never really change if you have been running the entire length of the map or for 10 seconds.

You must be bad at shooting if you need a visual indicator, there is nothing beyond that.

The real gripe about deviation is the fact that in close quarters, it screws you over.

Once again, I understand the need of deviation and it works realistically for medium to long range engagements (from about 70m out).

The issue isn't shooting targets at a distance, it's shooting targets that are close enough you could hit them with wadded up tissue. The frustration comes from countless engagements where I've come around on an enemy position, close enough to where I could effectively spit on them. I raise my sights, fire, and miss. They're taking up my entire sight picture, why in the hell would I miss unless I sneezed pulling the trigger or got tackled or something to that effect.

It's honestly just easier to run up in burst or full auto and click 'til the mag's empty. Which, from what I understand, isn't what the devs wanted to accomplish with this mod.

Any moderately trained soldier could shoulder his weapon, sight up his target, and effectively hit them from these short ranges where shots are missing.

Murphy wrote:If you're belly aching about deviation how can you say you have it mastered. There is no guessing, the settle times are a science not random, they never really change if you have been running the entire length of the map or for 10 seconds.

You must be bad at shooting if you need a visual indicator, there is nothing beyond that.

I don't want to be forced to wait when I don't have to, It creates a boring combat. You still have to wait if you sprint and then start to aim up, you would aim just as bad as otherwise. The difference is that you don't have to guess how well your soldier will shoot when you don't now how much deviation is set in. You know how well you will shoot since YOU are the soldier.

"You must be bad at shooting if you need a visual indicator, there is nothing beyond that." 1v1 CS 1.6?

I can say with confidence, you are always going to be required to wait to an extent, thats what we wanted, to slow the gameplay down a bit, rewarding preparation and forward thinking instead of simply how twitchy you are with a mouse.

There are no guarantees in PR, as there are none in combat IRL imo.

PoisonBill wrote:I don't want to be forced to wait when I don't have to, It creates a boring combat.

There are thousands of shallow games that allow you to shoot from the hip with 100% accuracy why not stop with this complaining and consider your options. A) Learn to play with deviation like EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON IN THIS COMMUNITY, or B) Go back to Counter-Strike/CoD/MoH.....whatever you see my point there are plenty of options for lazy unthinking players like yourself.

At least you won't find the combat boring in those games, as I personally do since it's all just point and click nonsense as I fire my endless supply of rockets into enemy positions on a map that is essentially a maze of corridors with a disarmingly pretty outdoor setting.

And we have all had those situations where you stumble upon hapless enemies and figure "i got these guys dead to rights" only to watch rounds fly anywhere but where you intend. Of course in these situations somehow your opponent can turn 180 and pop ur wig with 2-3 shots, but that's just how things go. Learn from that and next time don't get so eager to kill them that you forget to use other tools/methods at your disposal, that's how it goes for everyone from time to time.

Murphy wrote:There are thousands of shallow games that allow you to shoot from the hip with 100% accuracy why not stop with this complaining and consider your options. A) Learn to play with deviation like EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON IN THIS COMMUNITY, or B) Go back to Counter-Strike/CoD/MoH.....whatever you see my point there are plenty of options for lazy unthinking players like yourself.

At least you won't find the combat boring in those games, as I personally do since it's all just point and click nonsense as I fire my endless supply of rockets into enemy positions on a map that is essentially a maze of corridors with a disarmingly pretty outdoor setting.

And we have all had those situations where you stumble upon hapless enemies and figure "i got these guys dead to rights" only to watch rounds fly anywhere but where you intend. Of course in these situations somehow your opponent can turn 180 and pop ur wig with 2-3 shots, but that's just how things go. Learn from that and next time don't get so eager to kill them that you forget to use other tools/methods at your disposal, that's how it goes for everyone from time to time.

Reflection, in PR you "can" fire from hip with 100% accuracy. You can't do that in cod 4. But carrying on this discussion with you is just a waste of time since you are a daft person, who has already formed some kind of an opinion off me, based on prior experiences from people on the forums.

I'm not trying to remove deviation, but since you fervently read my posts and analysed my points I guess I did mean to do that...

@Rudd: The deviation mechanics would still be the same (you will have to wait) and you would not get any "guarantees" unless aiming down your sights. Plus the indicator doesn't have to mean,100% accuracy, it could just show that you would hit (circle) a target 50m away from you.

I gather from your posts that you are a lazy player and refuse to learn the very same mechanics that every other player has learned and lived with for quite a while now. You come here expecting a revamp of a system the devs put a lot of effort into.

I understand from your posts that you must die in close firefights more often then not and resort to trying to change the game as you cannot outplay the rest of community that has learned how to use deviation. Less time on the forums and more time ingame and maybe you wont need your visual crutch so desperately.

PS - To fire from the hip you still need to take deviation into account, please return to CoD4 since you're so versed in its mechanics. I also understood you do not want to remove deviation you just want your visual cue when you are settled, what you fail to see is that you're asking to dumb the game down to suit your standards.

Murphy wrote:I gather from your posts that you are a lazy player and refuse to learn the very same mechanics that every other player has learned and lived with for quite a while now. You come here expecting a revamp of a system the devs put a lot of effort into.

I understand from your posts that you must die in close firefights more often then not and resort to trying to change the game as you cannot outplay the rest of community that has learned how to use deviation. Less time on the forums and more time ingame and maybe you wont need your visual crutch so desperately.

PS - To fire from the hip you still need to take deviation into account, please return to CoD4 since you're so versed in its mechanics. I also understood you do not want to remove deviation you just want your visual cue when you are settled, what you fail to see is that you're asking to dumb the game down to suit your standards.

"You assume too much", I can tell you that.

If you would spend more time answering to my thoughts and ideas about deviation, which the thread is about (The thread isn't called lazy ol' PoisonBill). We would have a more giving discussion. But since you want to analyze me so much go ahead, but please form a new thread for that instead.