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ytman wrote:Ambushes aren't unconventional ^^.


Thats my nitpick of the day.

^This.

I thought it was obvious to everyone...

But any faction can do ambush...
Lack of scopes only force(not encourage) some factions to some limited actions poorly defined as "unconventional tactics" because otherwise they would be much less effective.

From what I have seen; British team winning or losing on Fool's Road largely depended on whether the crew for armoured vehicles is any good. With the lower range of militia's AT weapons along with thermals on vehicles, British crew could very easily have kept the vehicles alive(and killing everything in sight) with infantry support(obviously if they charge 300m in front of infantry then they get ambushed like normal Militia win scenario). Giving Militia more scope is not going to make it any less balanced.

^ not true tbh, you can completely stop an armoured advance on fools road with 1 HAT + 1 engineer, add a couple of ammo rifleman into the mix, and choose your ambush spot well (like a slight bend so they can't see you until they get closer) and pow! Either the armour cannot move forward, at which point you try and manoeuvre on them to get close enough to HAT/LAT them, or call in mortars to make them panic and move away again.

Remember those tankers don't want to wait 20minutes to get back in their vehicles, they'll usually withdraw.

Clever tankers will simply open fire on the hills with HEAT, hoping to get some of you; but you've CHOSEN this spot to ambush from, so I assume you've chosen a place with a few hidey holes.

In any case, thats around 4 guys that can hold up an entire armoured convoy; meaning a significant portion of the British team is now doing absolutely nothing useful to their team, leaving teh British infantry without support.

Though it is true, any faction can do ambushing tbh; its simply that the tools they have encourage or discourage the practice.

Militia requires a set of skills not used it many other factions, some people dislike having to adopt new styles of play so they want to change the entire faction. A lot of us are happy with the way Militia is right now, I think if everyone takes some of the advice given on this thread and applies it ingame they will begin to see that Militia isn't under-powered because it lacks optics on the standard rifleman.

Rudd wrote:^ not true tbh, you can completely stop an armoured advance on fools road with 1 HAT + 1 engineer, add a couple of ammo rifleman into the mix, and choose your ambush spot well (like a slight bend so they can't see you until they get closer) and pow! Either the armour cannot move forward, at which point you try and manoeuvre on them to get close enough to HAT/LAT them, or call in mortars to make them panic and move away again.

That is if they only have armoured vehicles moving forward. Most people would tell the infantry to get out if they see some some obviously possible ambush places(and people who play on the map enough will remember).

They could/should have had infantry scouting the possible ambushes by going through the hills, with ironsights rifles + scoped AR.

And if they see something; they can just call in the mortar and safely sit back 200m away until it is all clear.
I like to see people maneuver around squads of enemy infantry with a HAT.

Murphy wrote:Militia requires a set of skills not used it many other factions, some people dislike having to adopt new styles of play so they want to change the entire faction. A lot of us are happy with the way Militia is right now, I think if everyone takes some of the advice given on this thread and applies it ingame they will begin to see that Militia isn't under-powered because it lacks optics on the standard rifleman.

No, Militia needs less skills than many other factions because their lack of scope calls for less shot leading over long range(cannot aim that well and not even supposed to engage due to severe disadvantage). Ambushing skills...etc. are something EVERY faction can/should have(not like the guy with HAT is going to just charge up the hill at enemy vehicles in other factions).

Even if Militia is not underpowerd without magnifying optics on rifleman kits...Militia is not going to be OP with scopes on rifleman kits either(PKM and M60 still has no scope). Blufor-only players just want to feel special. If the map so encourages ambushes and cqb as you say; Militia players will PICK ironsighted kits if they want to; for close quarters and ambushing(at close range) they WILL still pick ironsights while there are also long distances that they can use scoped kits for.

And then the Spandy comes and blows a hole through their armored column. As they retreat they run into a minefield placed by a sneaky engi who also has enough sense to setup his IED where the armor stops. And now you have a kill box of epic proportions, like shooting fish in a barrel.

I have seen this pulled off on the far eastern road MANY MANY MANY times, and there happens to be a million and one cozy ambush spots you cannot be seen in. Listen for the clanking of the tracks and you will know exactly where their armor is at and where it is heading as they have very limited options you should be able to predict their approach.

Militia play to their strength and not off their weakness and it's easy to counter their armor with very low cost in the case of failure, this is another great strength for Militia.

Murphy wrote:And then the Spandy comes and blows a hole through their armored column. As they retreat they run into a minefield placed by a sneaky engi who also has enough sense to setup his IED where the armor stops. And now you have a kill box of epic proportions, like shooting fish in a barrel.

I have seen this pulled off on the far eastern road MANY MANY MANY times, and there happens to be a million and one cozy ambush spots you cannot be seen in. Listen for the clanking of the tracks and you will know exactly where their armor is at and where it is heading as they have very limited options you should be able to predict their approach.

Militia play to their strength and not off their weakness and it's easy to counter their armor with very low cost in the case of failure, this is another great strength for Militia.

Theoretically that could happen; but it does not happen every time because some times you just do not have a team that uses all of those.

And which part of that is going to be impossible to do with Militia if more scoped rifleman kits were available?

None of that. No reason to not give scoped rifleman/SL kits to Militia.

They could/should have had infantry scouting the possible ambushes by going through the hills, with ironsights rifles + scoped AR.

yeah...and then because you used the dips in the terrain - you're gonna engage them with ironsights, they don't know where you are

if the vehicles are willing to move at an infantryman's pace...its even easier to get them

1 militia HAT with a rifleman in support can kill god knows how many vehicles....

Rudd wrote:yeah...and then because you used the dips in the terrain - you're gonna engage them with ironsights, they don't know where you are

if the vehicles are willing to move at an infantryman's pace...its even easier to get them

1 militia HAT with a rifleman in support can kill god knows how many vehicles....

Or you could aim even better with scopes since enemy is not going to walk right up to your face for ironsights to be any better.

And you usually do not engage infantry with HAT, with or without ironsights.

Unscoped HAT is totally OP. [/sarcasm]

Now mapmaker or dev team needs to work on balance.

Also, two times last weeks when server switched to Fool's Road, most players left... I wonder why...

ComradeHX wrote:None of that. No reason to not give scoped rifleman/SL kits to Militia.

We're giving you all the methods/tactics that give Militia advantages over Blufor while still remaining without scopes. With your logic you have provided no reason TO give them scope rifles other then the fact that you personally have a dislike of ironsights.

All I'm getting from your replies is basically "I want strictly iron sights gone from all factions so I can play with optics every round". At this rate we would have to give insurgents optics because blufor owns the **** out of them in open grounds. Give me a valid argument against that? You can't because that's NOT HOW THEY ARE MEANT TO BE PLAYED.

L2p or stack blufor.

Edit: If you really prefer optics on your RPG you are a fool.

ComradeHX wrote:Or you could aim even better with scopes since enemy is not going to walk right up to your face for ironsights to be any better.

And you usually do not engage infantry with HAT, with or without ironsights.

Unscoped HAT is totally OP. [/sarcasm]

Now mapmaker or dev team needs to work on balance.

Also, two times last weeks when server switched to Fool's Road, most players left... I wonder why...

then it become the same tactics as any other round with conventional forces...

The joke it that I just realised the solution to all your problems

Fools road could have Russia vs GB on its 32 layer, since militia and russia have the same language files

Or you could bring back Russia entirely. The map worked with them in every sense, realistically and for positive gameplay. The BTR's were balanced vehicles and more logical than heavy tracked APC's and tanks working with RM's.

Murphy wrote:We're giving you all the methods/tactics that give Militia advantages over Blufor while still remaining without scopes. With your logic you have provided no reason TO give them scope rifles other then the fact that you personally have a dislike of ironsights.

All I'm getting from your replies is basically "I want strictly iron sights gone from all factions so I can play with optics every round". At this rate we would have to give insurgents optics because blufor owns the **** out of them in open grounds. Give me a valid argument against that? You can't because that's NOT HOW THEY ARE MEANT TO BE PLAYED.

L2p or stack blufor.

Edit: If you really prefer optics on your RPG you are a fool.

1. it is realistic for them to have scopes. There is still sidemount for the scopes(which is really not that common for regular AK74); maybe not 1pn29 but perhaps something cheaper(easiest way to do it is to just use SVD's PSO but with slight modification to scope model). I do not hate ironsights and I do not like scopes that much(because you move THAT much slower when crouched in CQB); I like to have a choice to switch between scoped rifle and ironsights WITHOUT taking limited kits.
2. did I say all factions? If that is what you are getting then you need to l2read. STOP treating Militia like Insurgents; MILITA HAS UAV, PROPER FOBS/RELATED DEPLOYABLES, ARMOURED(although less so than others) VEHICLES. MILITIA is in AAS maps, with FLAGS(which anyone can cap within a radius) not caches(which requires people to physically go up to close range to drop incendiary or c4). On fool's Road for example, Militia ALREADY has lower quality armoured vehicles AND lack of accurate long range HAT...they are ALREADY forced into doing short range ambushes instead of slugging it out with the british(who have thermals on APC and tanks). Again, you have no reason to not give Milita scopes.
You like to talk of Insurgents in a thread about optics for Militia? Fine. Insurgents have no real armoured vehicles(unless you count in technicals...lol) so BluFor STILL beats the **** out of them in open plains. If you are getting picked off by Insurgents with scoped rifle kits over open plain as Blufor; then your armor squad is **** and you are walking in the open thinking you are invincible rambo. There is no reason to give everyone on insurgent team magnifying optics because you can just look at photo and tell how many AK clone they used do NOT have ways to mount those magnifying optics. It is also not a reason if you want to snipe Blufor from 300m with ironsights...

3. Yeah I prefer optics on my RPG; it makes it easier to compensate for the drop(since there are notches and the bottom of RPG does not block the view in rare cases when a longer range shot is needed; it is a lot less needed after the drop is returned to normal, but still good to have because sometimes you want to take a look at a corner 300m away to see if the thing poking out slightly is part of enemy armor, but you do not want to pull out binos because when you switch back to RPG you get a few seconds of putting the rocket back in...) and YOU DO NOT DO CQB WITH RPG(unless you do, which means you are a fool).

Since Militia is only going to engage at where Ironsights is a lot more useful; WHY NOT TAKE OPTICS AWAY FROM BLUFOR? Obviously you do not need those; or do you still just want to feel good about having the choice of optics and ironsights in regular kits? They totally get slaughtered by Militia when using magnifying optics, right?

Rudd wrote:then it become the same tactics as any other round with conventional forces...

The joke it that I just realised the solution to all your problems

Fools road could have Russia vs GB on its 32 layer, since militia and russia have the same language files

It kind of is the same tactics since every conventional forces can do ambush(which can be done via setting up on enemy's path to their first flag).

Also, with the inferior armoured vehicles(no thermals either); Militia still has to play with more ambushes with RPG...etc. because shootout on open plain is going to be bad for Militia(they really should remove those defensive cannons...not a lot of people get on them because everyone knows exactly where they are).

Yes that solves it perfectly; Russia could just have kept the same assets and pretend to be VDV quick reaction force or something with light armour(I can wish for some sort of BMP but that is just a dream).

You still didnt provide a valid reason why they should have optics.

Also, I CQB with a RPG. You ever shoot someone coming up the stairs with an RPG? Even though it doesn't explode it still kills them. Beats rushing at them with a knife.

Rudd wrote:since militia and russia have the same language files

With all due respect, I am pretty much sure they dont.

Rudd wrote:Rubbish imo, all the militia maps have specific tactics to make ironsights a strength instead of a weakness, and again different tactics for scope users to be effective (but imo its harder to make the scopes as effective)

E.g.
fools road, stick to forest, get close to the enemy before engaging.
dragonfly, the urban setting has loads of places to move unseen to get in close and destroy the enemy in CQB

that people would prefer-
Army X vs army Y (which is really just army X with a couple of guns that have different recoil properties)
is boring

well equipped army X vs defensive posture army Y that has significant gameplay differences is more interesting

Give me a scope, I behave differently to when I use ironsights. I get just as many kills either way, but my tactics change; and that is were the variation comes in - and that helps keep the game fresh.

Its like on insurgency on a map like karbala:

Theres a load of insurgents on a rooftop on the city edge, the enemy have amassed to the north in the desert. The insurgents are looking at them with binocs, occasionally sending long range ironsight shots at the americans to piss em off. The Americans are sitting in the desert sniping the insurgents with 50cals, scopes etc.

The insurgents go "oh man this sucks, attack us already US cowards"

but they've misunderstood. The US would come into the city, they WOULD ATTACK, if there wasn't a fricking line of moronic insurgents on a rooftop.

Result, the insurgents (unless they are lucky, or have good mortars or whatever) then die because they decided to hold a stupid rooftop, and get all frustrated and start going on about how unbalanced insurgency is.

Same for miltia, "militia should have scopes so they can fight enemies far away from a hilltop position"

no, militia should not have scopes, so that we get some different gameplay, want hilltop fights? Play Jabal or Iron Eagle. I love playing Militia as they are. The only thing the militia need imo is a mobile AT gun (since the fixed AT guns are made useless now since all the players know their locations exactly)

/\ I couldn't have wrote it better. People dont seem to get that without the scopes you have to creep up close. Which means other side tries to outmanouvre the other because of the range. It means 2 rounds of the same map on different sides have totally different experience where you have to evaluate your strenghts and weaknesses. I myself enjoy this alot more than both sides sitting in ditches hundreds of meters away shooting at each other.

And to the question of realism somehow I got the idea of militia being loosely emulating poor east Europian (rebel?) factions and probably wouldn't spend money on scopes for assault rifles.

ComradeHX wrote:1. it is realistic for them to have scopes. There is still sidemount for the scopes(which is really not that common for regular AK74); maybe not 1pn29 but perhaps something cheaper(easiest way to do it is to just use SVD's PSO but with slight modification to scope model). I do not hate ironsights and I do not like scopes that much(because you move THAT much slower when crouched in CQB); I like to have a choice to switch between scoped rifle and ironsights WITHOUT taking limited kits.
2. did I say all factions? If that is what you are getting then you need to l2read. STOP treating Militia like Insurgents; MILITA HAS UAV, PROPER FOBS/RELATED DEPLOYABLES, ARMOURED(although less so than others) VEHICLES. MILITIA is in AAS maps, with FLAGS(which anyone can cap within a radius) not caches(which requires people to physically go up to close range to drop incendiary or c4). On fool's Road for example, Militia ALREADY has lower quality armoured vehicles AND lack of accurate long range HAT...they are ALREADY forced into doing short range ambushes instead of slugging it out with the british(who have thermals on APC and tanks). Again, you have no reason to not give Milita scopes.
You like to talk of Insurgents in a thread about optics for Militia? Fine. Insurgents have no real armoured vehicles(unless you count in technicals...lol) so BluFor STILL beats the **** out of them in open plains. If you are getting picked off by Insurgents with scoped rifle kits over open plain as Blufor; then your armor squad is **** and you are walking in the open thinking you are invincible rambo. There is no reason to give everyone on insurgent team magnifying optics because you can just look at photo and tell how many AK clone they used do NOT have ways to mount those magnifying optics. It is also not a reason if you want to snipe Blufor from 300m with ironsights...

3. Yeah I prefer optics on my RPG; it makes it easier to compensate for the drop(since there are notches and the bottom of RPG does not block the view in rare cases when a longer range shot is needed; it is a lot less needed after the drop is returned to normal, but still good to have because sometimes you want to take a look at a corner 300m away to see if the thing poking out slightly is part of enemy armor, but you do not want to pull out binos because when you switch back to RPG you get a few seconds of putting the rocket back in...) and YOU DO NOT DO CQB WITH RPG(unless you do, which means you are a fool).

Since Militia is only going to engage at where Ironsights is a lot more useful; WHY NOT TAKE OPTICS AWAY FROM BLUFOR? Obviously you do not need those; or do you still just want to feel good about having the choice of optics and ironsights in regular kits? They totally get slaughtered by Militia when using magnifying optics, right?


It kind of is the same tactics since every conventional forces can do ambush(which can be done via setting up on enemy's path to their first flag).

Also, with the inferior armoured vehicles(no thermals either); Militia still has to play with more ambushes with RPG...etc. because shootout on open plain is going to be bad for Militia(they really should remove those defensive cannons...not a lot of people get on them because everyone knows exactly where they are).

Yes that solves it perfectly; Russia could just have kept the same assets and pretend to be VDV quick reaction force or something with light armour(I can wish for some sort of BMP but that is just a dream).

Too much to address at work but I'll give you food for thought.

The militia is a team that closely resembled the Russians in .8 in almost every regard that they were a redundant faction. Now, the Militia, like the Taliban, is labled as an unconventional force. By that we mean not a full class military and infact a military that is in many ways inferior to its opponents.

This comes down to assets, lack of scopes, and some deployables not able to be used or replaced with 'inferior' models (I love the SPG).

The balancing then comes in when the scenario is put in play; Seige at Ochamchira is a map that is as good as it is because of its unique setting and scenario, Fools Road is perhaps one of the most balanced maps in all of PR, Kolzelsk is perhaps my favorite map to defend on.

Please, take the militia as they are, an experiment in asymmetrical warfare. Cetainly, I'd love to see other changes to the faction; different FOp rules/models...different kit rules (more standard RPG-7s and AP/CE kits)... but scopes is not one of them.

Scoped RPG-7 > Unscoped RPG-7.

Although the whole Russian alt layer would just beg people to ask for the tanks to be back and then it's just reverted to the old version that was dull and played like every single other AAS map Russia faces off against some Western country.

If you want to play a standard AAS map there are plenty of options, don't ruin a map plenty of people enjoy because a handful cannot handle a different style of play.

ShockUnitBlack wrote:Scoped RPG-7 > Unscoped RPG-7.

Hopefully the RPG will be altered to work like any other grenade launcher in game .

That would make them almost par save for a zoom.

I'm surprised that after years and years of RPG practice people don't prefer the ironsights version. The scoped RPG gives you the false impression that you will actually be able to hit that target just because you can see it better. At 200+ meters scoped or not it's a hell of a shot with either weapon system and with the scoped version you don't really get to see the drop as that well for your follow up shot.

A smart RPG user will play like a smart IS user, close that distance as much as possible to get an easier shot and give the opponent a lot less chance of escape. Scopes encourage attempting long shots which are wastes of ammo (fun if you have ammo to waste ofc), and offer the enemy plenty of chance to escape/evade/regroup/attack.

I finally realized this is more or less an issue of comfort. Are you comfortable running around dangerously close to the enemy or are you more confident watching them at range. Either way enemy players will do their best to keep you out of your comfort zone, which is why I enjoy meeting them face to face for tea and grenades as many people firmly hold onto the idea that they are superior because they can see what they are shooting easier at distances.