Arresting a Wounded Soldier

[rodrigoma]

I think first implementation should be just the basic mechanic of arresting, then additional point penalties can be tried.

Imo it isn't really needed.

[Onil]

Yes of course, and while the devs decide if they want to implement the basic feature, we can discuss how it will influence the game-play and which possible adjustments can be made for the predictable issues that the feature might create.

Thing is, none of the devs winked at it yet...

[brunoff]

Loved this idea, and I think the best is to keep it simple, just an arresting action using restrainers that takes like 7 to 15 secs of holding a button.
If possible, also make it so the player has to be standing to perform the arrest action.

To me this is already balanced. Nobody will be running to every enemy soldier they shoot down just to confirm the kill as some people are afraid of. Standing still over a guy that's probably calling for medic/reporting his downed status to his squad in the middle of a fire fight will get you killed most of the times, so people will tend to wait for a break in the fight to do that.

If we really need an specific item on the inventory to implement this, the restrainer, any class with available slots could work, but NOT the medic. If you get this role to be exclusive for the medic, its going to be painfull to play that class and a squad won't even bother arresting anyone as there's probably a low risk of revival since there'll be even less medics around. I also think this action should be available for multiple kits since the main point was to avoid time waste of camping corpses. If only one guy has to do this it'll be like 2 mins to arrest a full squad which is not too different from camping the bodies for a long time.

[llRvXll]

I don't see why shooting at the guy would be a bad idea...

*entire inf squad runs accross open field and gets completely destroyed by machinegun fire*

*entire inf squad remains "wounded" on the middle of the open field, getting shot by angry machinegunners*

*machinegunners get hit by mortar fire/apc and get behind cover*

*medic pops smoke and starts reviving every single one of the 7 guys*

oh boy...

[Wheres_my_chili]

Well until a dev likes this idea then theres no need to really get our hopes up.

[waldov]

I don't see why shooting at the guy would be a bad idea...

*entire inf squad runs accross open field and gets completely destroyed by machinegun fire*

*entire inf squad remains "wounded" on the middle of the open field, getting shot by angry machinegunners*

*machinegunners get hit by mortar fire/apc and get behind cover*

*medic pops smoke and starts reviving every single one of the 7 guys*

oh boy...

Welcome to PRs Achilles heel.

[Mikemonster]

The thing is it is currently the other way around. The apc don't need infantry to kill a wounded player they can just shoot him again after he is wounded or go for a clean head shots.

I didn't want it to be a crewman ability, but a vehicle ability that was available to pretty much all vehicles except logistic trucks, CAS, AAV's and Tanks.

There are many cases where soldiers have been caught killing incapacitated enemy's while being on the natural adrenalin rush (or blood rush I think is more correct).
If the enemy clearly surrender or is no longer a threat to you as he can no longer fight you cannot justify killing him and you would be making a war crime by doing so.
There is a fine line between soldiers killing soldiers and soldiers executing downed soldiers.

And for gameplay yes it is a problem with the knife being an instant action, so it makes it too easy to arrest players.
I recall in earlier version of PR a knife seemed to instant kill all the time, where as know it seems you have to hit them in the head or leg to instant kill them. A knife should always kill instantly imo, when the enemy is still standing, but not when he is wounded and not able to fight back.

But PR rarely simulates a situation where you'd accept an enemy surrender. In PR almost every infantry fight is 1:1 (the forces involved have parity) and death is extremely imminent. In that situation would you seriously waste time arresting 3 of your enemy, whilst another 3 are on the opposite side of a hedge trying to kill you? You've already shot them 3 times (once in the face).

Fair enough if you had 100 guys behind you and you've just secured a large area, and have the 6 enemy that you were after surrender, but that's not what PR simulates.

As mentioned, any CQB (which is very common in PR) is basically trench clearing. If you were clearing a building or a trench system after charging in, and an enemy that was previously shooting you threw his weapon down, you'd have to shoot him in the face and carry on. Where would you and your colleagues get the time from to arrest him (he's wasted his chance of surrendering, he should have done it before you charged)?? If you didn't put a bullet in his head and move on he could use a hidden weapon to shoot you all in the back, or a hidden grenade, etc.

You don't seriously think that all soldiers fight to the death when overwhelmed do you? I'm sure a fair number surrender when their gun jams or they lose confidence, or they get bayonetted. But then it's too late, surely you would kill them.

Hence I think that shooting a Wounded enemy soldier isn't necessarily a bad thing, if we're talking about arresting them. Although the arrest as mentioned could be used if the enemy actually surrendered whilst he still had a chance.

I don't get what your problem is... What is the difference if we use the restrainers or the knife, for you? Is it because of the delay that we want to add to the restrainers?

As everything in PR, there needs to be a balance between what's realistic and what actually works in its game-play. If you would make it so that you can simply shoot the bodies, then there would be almost no revives what-so-ever. And if you use the knife instead of the restrainers, the majority of the community would still vote for a delay since people would just be running around knifing bodies like retards.

The delay allows for the situation to require a bit more teamwork which is what PR is all about. So it's not a matter of it being legal or not... or being morally correct or not... it is about getting it to work with how this game was created and how it will continue to be developed.

Agree, there needs to be a gameplay balance.

Arresting Wounded enemies, and 'Killing' wounded enemies are two seperate discussions I suppose.

Although as I just mentioned, if you over-ran an enemy position in the kind of battle that PR simulates, I can't see any of the enemy surviving (unless they hid and then came out after the shooting, and even then, who knows).


The following vid has the famous 'mosque shooting' video in it.. Those guys were in a live battle zone - Are people seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't do this if you hadn't secured the rest of the building?

Kevin Sites: Fallujah Mosque Shooting - YouTube

Gameplay is one thing, but the geneva convention in a CQB fight to the death as a reason not to be able to shoot 'Wounded' enemy to death? Really?

[epicelite]

I think this would be a bad thing IF it gave/removed any points.

People would just start giving up instantly instead of waiting for a medic because "I don't want to give the enemy any points." and that would end up costing your team points, and potentially limited kits.

[Onil]

Why would anyone be concern of how many "points" they or someone else gets? Points are useless!

If you're talking of tickets, there is no need to change the current setting of wounded = -1 Ticket and Dead = - 1 ticket which equals a total of 2 tickets per soldier that is wounded and gives up or in this case, gets arrested.

There should be no penalty for the arrested player and no reward for the soldier that arrests a wounded enemy, with the exception of simply confirming the "kill" in order to deny a possible revive. That is the only point of this feature... as simple as that.

[emmanuel15]

B
Agree, there needs to be a gameplay balance.

Arresting Wounded enemies, and 'Killing' wounded enemies are two seperate discussions I suppose.

Although as I just mentioned, if you over-ran an enemy position in the kind of battle that PR simulates, I can't see any of the enemy surviving (unless they hid and then came out after the shooting, and even then, who knows).


The following vid has the famous 'mosque shooting' video in it.. Those guys were in a live battle zone - Are people seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't do this if you hadn't secured the rest of the building?

Kevin Sites: Fallujah Mosque Shooting - YouTube

Gameplay is one thing, but the geneva convention in a CQB fight to the death as a reason not to be able to shoot 'Wounded' enemy to death? Really?

I personaly tell you i will never do such a thing. I am planing to serve in the US military and know what war is as i lived in a "kind of a warzone". It wasn't the real deal but believe me i will never do that. even after i was forced to enter to such a place...shoot a guy that actually can't do a thing against you cause he's wounded, unarmed and he's at least 10:1? I understand there is the tension and some won't stand it but i could not live with my self if i had done such a thing literaly i don't think i will have a value to myself and most likely loose my mind and i am not suprised if that guy was strocked with PTSD.

EDIT:sorry it's off topic, i kind of agree with the opposing side here but that's mainly because i haven't seen here an organized, balanced and agreeable layout but if there will be one i will support it.

[Wheres_my_chili]

Can we not let this turn into a moral argument please?

[Mikemonster]

Sorry - I was just pointing out that it's not necessarily unrealistic to shoot a wounded enemy if he's left it too late to surrender and you have charged his position (and are moving through it).

Seeing as a lot of PR battles have this element I thought it worth mentioning.

Gameplay is one thing, but I wanted to nullify a false 'reality' argument.

Surrendering after the enemy has successfully bayonet charged you and is moving through your position? Really? Running away and hiding, perhaps.. But not 'OK you win I surrender, you can't hurt me now if I sit quietly LOL'.. Precisely when would you do this in the confusion and panic of CQB battle? When your gun jams? Or when you start crying and don't want to be a soldier any more? Or just when you get shot in the stomach and lose the will to fight on? If the enemy is 5ft away and closing and wants you dead, is he really going to whip out a first aid kit and give you a phone to call your solicitor with if you put your hands up? Especially when you have a string of mates he HASN'T shot yet.

Doesn't cover all scenarios but it does cover the greater proportion of PR ones. In PR CQB you usually get shot 2-3 times, and once more on the way down before they realise they've killed you. Would you really say 'oh he fell over, don't shoot him again to make sure he's dead - That's illegal'. Or would you make damn sure you'd killed him before you left the room to kill his mates?

Practicality more than anything.

[Heavy Death]

How about just use the stabbing animation to arrest/kill, whatever. Like you punch with the restrainers, and it counts as arresting.

Less work, same deal. Knife crit wounded enemies and thats it, they go dead-dead.

[Gracler]

I don't see why shooting at the guy would be a bad idea...

*entire inf squad runs accross open field and gets completely destroyed by machinegun fire*

*entire inf squad remains "wounded" on the middle of the open field, getting shot by angry machinegunners*

*machinegunners get hit by mortar fire/apc and get behind cover*

*medic pops smoke and starts reviving every single one of the 7 guys*

oh boy...

This is the most unrealistic aspect of PR but it is also the best counter for lone-wolf behavior as you have almost no chance of wiping out a squad of 4-6 or 8 with your precious machine-gun at your "safe" sniper location.

I like it the way it is and being a medic makes a whole lot of sense. If you could easily be shot dead then it would be a total waste having 2 medics in an 8 man squad as the medic would be dealing with dead corpses all the time.

I could accept that a knife or restrainer could instantly "kill" a wounded person though, as that would mean you already overrun the enemy position and your not sniping from 600m away.

[Brainlaag]

I fully support Onil's idea. This can only improve INF combat.

[Solid Knight]

Make it so medics can revive the enemy then have teammates shoot him again for the perma-kill.

[Cossack]

I better try kill as many I can before go down and if restrain in CQB is implemented than its really awkward. If you sneak up on enemy, you would stab him, not arrest.

Even after revive - kill as many you can and enemy must finish him of, not arrest.

By my book, it bit not make sense. Maybe I dont fully understand topic. Pardon then

[Onil]

I'm sure you didn't understand the topic... we're talking of arresting the body of an enemy "before" he is revived and that is what the restrainers would be for. They do not replace the knife (except in Insurgency as it is now) as they are an extra that is added.

I also have a suggestion to stop players using those restrainers as a knife when sneaking behind an enemy. This will be proposed to the dev team once we have a proof of concept tested.

[Onil]

^^

Read the damn topic before posting about something that is not even related to the discussion...

We're not discussing anything regarding the civi/collaborator. We're discussing the possibility of arresting the body of a wounded enemy to prevent him from being revived.

You didn't even bothered reading/ trying to understand the first or the last post (before yours) of this thread in which it is well explained what the suggestion is about.