Commander being removed?

[space]

I think having the commander in his shed is a good move. When I ask for Commander to be given more capabilities - I mean capabilities he can use from his shed. Sorry to those that disagree, but you cant be an effective commander while you drive around, or fight.
When I used to command in 0.7, I would have to find a "hiding" place and then I would stay in that spot for the whole round, so having a command shed is much better.
The problem I have, is that all he can do in his shed atm is look at the map, relay VOIP messages and authorise an hourly puff of smoke - thats just boring in my opinion.
PS I love the fact that SL can now build firebases - firebase authoriseation was one of the most important uses of the CO in 0.7. Please do not change this back - just give the CO something equally important to replace it.

[Majorpain]

However, this is not always the case... in fact from what I've seen in UK/US/PRC servers, it's rarely the case. Without the commander in these situations, the match simply becomes a gagggle-rat-screw with every squad going every other direction.

Thus in these situations it's very beneficial to have a commander, even if not a lot of people like to command, when there is one commander that give order and coordination, it's very fun and organized.

Correct, there should always be a commander. But as has i said earlier, forcing people to sit in a box for the round whilst everyone else is having fun attacking flags isnt exactly fair for the commander. I suppose if you bring in real life, 1% of time is spent fighting whilst 99% of time is sitting around with nothing to do.

Regarding the commander's role on the battlefield and things to add to attract more commanders, think of it this way. In my opinion (note: my opinion) the commander's role right now is like the pill curing uncoordinated and broken teams, except it has no sugar coating so it's hard to swallow and some people don't like it, but it's potent. however, in the end medicine will never taste good, otherwise they'll be candy. so if you add too much sugar coating or roles that diverge or "distract" the commander from his purpose than it doesn't cure the sickness.

Im going to have to disagree with you on that one. A broken team will still be broken with a good commander. What if the Squad leader doesnt put down a rally point? They come up against 3 enemy squads who rip them to shreds? The HAT gunner dies, gives his kit away to the enemy and your team spends the rest of the round fighting Tanks with LAT and AT mines? Would a commander really help in these situations?

In other words, if we add more side-tasks to commander's role and more people start playing commander, chances are they didn't become commander to actually command. Thus having these commanders are no better than having no commander at all.

I disagree. Commanders shouldnt be micromanaging squads. You give them a task and leave them to it. Whilst ive only managed 5 minutes with a broken mike, the feedback threads mention people putting their feet up with a book whilst commanding. They therefore aint exactly rushed off their feet with things to do . A far bigger problem in my opinion (at least in 0.75) was squads going off doing their own thing. Whats the point of being a commander when squads pay no attention to you?

But bringing the commander closer to the front-line doesn't work as we've seen with Vbf2, the commander doesn't really do any commanding when he is ramboing it out or worrying about knives and teabags. I don't think bringing back satellite feed like the way it was used in vBF2 would be the answer either as it'd lead to obvious exploits. But keep the discussion going in this aspect and we might find something that fit.

PR is far far away from vanilla by now... I suggested in one of the other threads a few things to give the commander something to do whilst still commanding the battlefield:

1. Bob the builder on bunkers. If your team takes a point, the squad leader ends up either taking a lift back to base or suiciding to take a command truck. (See maps without choppers, not a problem on kashan). I would like to see commander being able to jump into a truck and taking it out to the front line - drop crate- and back to the command post to rearm the boxes. Maybe have a commander supply truck which spawns every 5 mins from the post for this job?

2. 3 Minute respawn when commander dies. He shouldnt be on the frontline, the closest he should get is dropping off boxes for a firebase and then running back to his box.

3. More artillery. Maybe a verbal/written warning for the enemy team that something nasty is on the way and they should start running or take cover? (Artillery - Echo 3 etc?)

Counter-battery radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These already exist for most armies, and should make turtling your way with fortifications/sandbags a little bit more difficult.

[MrYellow]

So what your really trying to say after all this is:

1. you don't think commander is needed.

2. commander should have more "directive/active" role on the front-line to make his job less boring.

1. Actually no, I'm saying the commander is needed however in his current
state he isn't played and as such is ineffective in the role. What I'm
pushing for is to return the commander to the game as of now they are
basically removed.

2. Actually no, I'm saying the commander should have the choice in where
and how he positions himself and it shouldn't be forced on him.

It needs to allow a creative commander to be completely flexible in how the
slot is used. To determine himself how best to use the slot and how best to
serve his team.

Present the commander with some tools, how he uses them is his option.

Forcing people into a box because of some percieved threat to realism just
isn't cutting it. There are other ways to reach the same objectives without
ham-stringing the CO.

There are options here..... Better ones.

-Ben

[Banzai!]

64p PR, we are talking about platoon vs. platoon or company vs company (scaling) engagements. The commander is a platoon or company commander. Platoon and company commanders fight it out and don't sit back at the chateau all day.

[MrYellow]

1. Bob the builder on bunkers. If your team takes a point, the squad leader ends up either taking a lift back to base or suiciding to take a command truck. (See maps without choppers, not a problem on kashan). I would like to see commander being able to jump into a truck and taking it out to the front line - drop crate- and back to the command post to rearm the boxes. Maybe have a commander supply truck which spawns every 5 mins from the post for this job?

Was thinking of this last night it's very useful job for a CO on some maps.
Squads are engaged past their last objective, can't spare a man, commanders
ready to move up, choppers aren't there to drop crates, CO moves out drops
the crate, makes the build order. While his SQD leaders stay on the
parameter with their eyes out... Then he finds a good spot where he can see
the troops moving out, see a flank they can't observe, and easily hide when
looking at the map, helps position the SQDs to protect the new asset as
they move out, while maybe even following with them himself if needed.

In my opinion (note: my opinion) the commander's role right now is like the pill curing uncoordinated and broken teams, except it has no sugar coating so it's hard to swallow and some people don't like it, but it's potent.

I'm hitting on the front-line thing again but really it isn't my major
point here but the best example of how flexible the commander needs to be.

This same focusing of team can sometimes (especially when squads are
concentrated) best be achieved by being on the field and being the first
one to follow up your orders with movement. People can see you and see the
line and pace as you're on it with them. I've seen it work however risky it
might be.

edit: Just to add remember there is more then just the in-game map but the map
people keep in their head. If a CO knows the location of 3 squads engaging an
objective he hears a report of enemy on the flank he sent a squad to, or even
enemy gunfire, CO can then changes orders as needed, doesn't even need to see
the map let alone place any markers. That's fun, challenging, realistic.

-Ben

[MrYellow]

Ok think we're defined on some of the conflicts in the slot.

Got some ideas....
Gussing at what the engine is capbale of, will put a ? next to anything I'm unsure of.

1. Allow commander to approve arty/mortars in the field.

Possibly restricted to proximity to firebase/truck/crates?
Can proximty be linked to any object? Could create/modify a class as
"Radioman" and link commanders proximity to player and/or other assets.

There is a way in there somewhere that can result in the CO having this
asset available without having to drive across the map in a truck to get to
the CP.

2. Allow building is a hard one, however I believe the ability of SQD
leaders to now build without approval alone could fix the "bob the builder"
issue. It's possible CO building could be done without a return to this
style as in most situations the SQD leader does it and gets it built
faster, however sometimes the CO may need to build and is frustrated
with the current setup.

CO likely needs the ability to remove assets locally, from proximity to
another FOP or from CP to balance the ability of SQD leaders to build
without approval, while not creating another issue with the CO needing to
be at or return to the CP.

edit: remove asset or approve function linked to availability of map?

-Ben

[MrYellow]

bump.

Ok 2 months of playing everynight. No games with a commander. No one plays commander anymore.
Fact.

So.... You say it isn't broken, that it's by design, that a platoon or company commander
wouldn't be in the field (yeah whatever), that any other solution would mean commanders
driving trucks to the front constantly.

I (and many others playing on aussie servers) say if no one is playing the slot then
something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

I think the addition of squad leaders being able to build has already fixed any issues
relating to commanders and their roles, leaving the additional restriction of commanders
being locked within CPs is redundant and unneeded to satisfy the same requirements.

This lack of a commander adds more problems to the game, as insurgents lack firepower
without their mortar strikes, leaving many on the server very sick of playing insurgents
(most leave the server once switched to insurgents due to the odds being so stacked
without these mortars. If the commander could be in the field, we'd have mortars,
and we'd have an insurgent game worth playing.

As it stands many long-term, team players who are getting very sick of this version of the
mod, for a variety of reasons, however I believe they are symptoms of the broken commander
slot.

-Ben

[cyberzomby]

I would hate it because I found some love for it I do agree with you though. We see them to little.

[Tartantyco]

Introduce a CO kit:

Only a sidearm and perhaps some bandages
Cannot drive trucks
Cannot build assets
Can access any CO abilities at any time
Long respawn time

-Simple as that really.

[MrYellow]

Thats not entirely true, we do get a commander every now and then. I myself have commanded once, for the first time, though I will admit it wasn't the best experience. Some of that could be put down to the fact I only had three squads and they didn't really give me that much info, even when I asked them directly they would keep it as vague as possible making it somewhat difficult to co-ordinate the squads.

Hey mate, might have got unlucky there, most times our squad leaders are on
voice. This is kind of part of the problem with having the CO slot
restricted to being a coms relay. Apart from approving CAS attacks etc your
only real function is to relay voice commands. While due to us playing so
much without a commander we're not relying on this function. Instead the
squads are monitoring the map themselves and using markers to call in
transport etc, making the CO redundant in this role also.

We're so used to working without a commander that when a coms relay comes
along, I think we tend to ignore them and stick to the dynamic style we
know works. Trying to get a request through to another squad via the CO is
a little harder then just placing a map marker.

None of the guys that did play CO will play it anymore, while those that
try it out find it to be too restrictive and are very likely to never play
the slot again.

I like Tartantyco's suggestions, however think it could work with the
commander being able to build also. Most times squads would build, but
sometimes there are assets needed further back in the field that would be
better placed by a CO.

-Ben

[Skodz]

Commander was not very popular before 0.8, now, he is totally gone... I do not expect to have a commander anymore. I know its the most boring role in PR.

Having a good commander is very useful for squad coordination, etc. but lets face it, PR made it so boring, 99% of normal people don't want to do it...

[Mediace]

Hello my name is Mediace and i am a PRholic,
long time reader/viewer first time poster. Been loving project reality ever since it first came across me back at the start of .6. H-ATs off to the modding team and community for making such and awesome game out of what was really peanuts (vBF2). Keep up the good work and all that

/end-first-forum-post

I think what MrYellow was trying to raise with this thread is where is the benefit of having a commander on your team in .8.

In .75 if your team didn't have a commander and the other team did their was a high chance your team was going to fail, at the start of a round there was always pleading to the commander gods that they would click apply because having no commander meant no bunkers/firebases/extra spawn points. Having the ability to build when you have no commander on your team in .8 is awesome, common occurrences in .75 included your SL hopin into the commander chair for a second to place a bunker or getting the “yeah i'll give you the build order as soon as i spawn”/”just a sec i can't give you one yet its recharging” from the commander already residing in the commanding chair. These days (at least on Aussie servers) the commander chair sits unused round after round because if anything a commander would slow the building process and take one gun off the battlefield, sure sure he can place all those little markers all over the map in possible location of that enemy tank but in (game) reality “nme tank F5 num 4” spammed in team chat is just as effective and in some case more so as it will allow other squad members that can't hear the commander blaring over the radio to have more situational awareness, so johnny tank driver goes “oh, thats close to us lets go take it out”

CAS support in theory works best with a commander to relay messages but having a squad leader dedicated to placing move markers on targets he finds and targets relayed over team chat is 10x more effective IMO, plus direct laserer(sp? Is that a word, it is now) to pilot communication is dominating. Running missions for other targets called by other squads may be a bit harder if the commander isn't copying their move marker for you, but for attack choppers this isn't a problem, a marker 100m from the target will still let you to find it with ease. And often this is also not a major problem for attack planes as you just remove one squad member from your squad for a second to make room for the heavy asset to join and annihilate the target with your direct move marker and laser.

artillery/morter strikes/JDAMs are a benefit for actually having a commander but you can always get a squad member to spawn back at main to jump in the hot seat for a sec to get that payload out.

The amount of communication needed to keep the commander situationally aware all the way back at main base is ridiculous not to mention leads to a lot of “hold on a sec the commander/squad x was in my ear can you repeat your last”. Juggling a full squad of people calling out targets and a commander trying to give you orders/talking to other squads/ sitrep'ing other squads reports will probably give you a headache. The collaborative effort of all squad leaders talking in team chat gives full situational awareness to every team member on the field with the ability to read. In the commanders chair that team chat spam in the capslock menu goes past so quickly as there is less screen space for it to linger on you liable to miss something important

As for the comments about Aussies aggressiveness on the battlefield i would put it down to the round times, we only run a map for 1 hour and a half as apposed to our 4 hour American brethren and quite often the round won't even last that long.

Yeah so i would like to see some changes that could possibly make having a competent commander give you a little edge over the competition, possibly lowering the time for artillery might make it work, i really don't know, giving back the ability to build only if you have a commander would definitively make that chair used but i think its better the way it is at the moment for building. I am sure most of you guys already know all of this and are thinking of ways to tinker with it, don't take any of this post the wrong way please just giving my little two cents. Keep up the good work

Mediace

[Surround]

I liked to play as comm earlier because you had something fun to do all th time. But my time is limited and I dont want to spend my gaming time "doing nothing". For players who want quick fun (about 1 hr.. lol), commandering isn´t fun.

But I admit it´s better 0.8 way. Because earlier you couldn´t concentrate on squads when you were worrying about building bunkers and driving your truck

In this version all you can do is to help the squads and concentrate on them. This is the best way to improve the TEAMWORK!
I make sound like fun But itsn´t I think. Maybe I should try next time I play and see.

[cyberzomby]

MrYellow, if your thinking of a CO to only relay comms your wrong. You should see it as your playing an RTS game. Where do you want to send your guys. Whos flanking, whos attacking what. Get your guys to report often and send the other guys to places where they matter with that info. That way Commanding is a whole lot of more fun. Just discovered this myself. Its really cool when you see your "grand attack scheme" working out.

[MrYellow]

I understand the concept perfectly, yes it could be fun.

However what good is a RTS style commander if no one ever plays the slot?

I haven't seen a JDAM in about 3 months.

I've played maybe 2 games with a commander in that time.

There IS a problem, that being it's major symptom.

-Ben

[Gaven]

Until they give the commander freedom to move about the map, it's a dying job.

[Waaah_Wah]

^^Its more rewarding when they do

[Army Musician]

I think for the commander, he should be the one to set the strategy, as in remove the script that AUTOMATICALLY tells people what outposts to go for. Rather let the commander choose, and they are the ones that can be captured.
Say I am the Lt. Col, my job would be to ensure victory. In BF2 you need to capture out posts to win, and you need to do that on how the battle progresses, not by hinderance from the computer telling you what to do.
I would like to launch feints and various other kind of attack, but because of certain things I can't do that.