Special Forces Kit.

[Gaven]

Spec Ops... I still say give him a silenced submachinegun instead of silenced pistol and rifle. Good for defense and stealth, but worthless for attacking. Will get those using the kit without actually using stealth get killed fast. Pistols could be replaced with something useful. The trip flares perhaps, instead of the engineer having those... Maybe even a breaching shotgun (Or slams with the effect of the shotgun but lower radius). Something that fits with the stealth and destroy thing...

And: Change the name of the class. Something without the word "special". Something that just doesnt sound as cool... vanguard or something... hard to find a good term...

But well, not the first time I say this, and probably I'm wrong. But I wouldnt want to lose the class, because i think its not worse than snipers and such.

And no, despite my name (which I had long before hearing about PR), I'm not one who plays Sp3c0pz all the time.

A silenced main weapon is what it needs. That and preferably something to break the shape of the player.

[Mongolian_dude]

Im thinking Specialist Demolition, recon, guerilla, counter-guerilla, spotter, FAC, calandastine ninja? With a slow rope?

...mongol...

[Truism]

Hahah, whaaaaat?? Sure, if you have a supply crate under you and your enemies are blind, deaf and retarded.

Btw, a destroyed bridge is always better than a mined bridge. Atleast when we have mines that stick out like a penis on a mans forehead when placed on bridges.

The sniper kit requires stationary targets to reliably kill them. HAT and LAT don't have this problem at all.

And a mined bridge has several very important sitational advantages over a destroyed one - there are almost no bridges in the game that don't have a land bridge alternative for people to steam over, planing mines causes a vehicle to get slowed down in a very vulnerable position allowing easy ambushes of it which delay it for 20 to 30 minutes depending on the armour type, whereas forcing it to use a land bridge slows it down by 2-3 minutes max and doesn't allow for anywhere near as easy an ambush opportunity except insofaras it usually makes it the ONLY crossing point (it doesn't make your anti armour weapons more effective against the vehicle, just lets you concentrate them if you are playing defensively).

So no, not always, it's very much a question of priorities.

Spec Ops... I still say give him a silenced submachinegun instead of silenced pistol and rifle. Good for defense and stealth, but worthless for attacking. Will get those using the kit without actually using stealth get killed fast. Pistols could be replaced with something useful. The trip flares perhaps, instead of the engineer having those... Maybe even a breaching shotgun (Or slams with the effect of the shotgun but lower radius). Something that fits with the stealth and destroy thing...

And: Change the name of the class. Something without the word "special". Something that just doesnt sound as cool... vanguard or something... hard to find a good term...

But well, not the first time I say this, and probably I'm wrong. But I wouldnt want to lose the class, because i think its not worse than snipers and such.

And no, despite my name (which I had long before hearing about PR), I'm not one who plays Sp3c0pz all the time.

Spec Ops do a lot more than just be stealthy in real life. Our Spec Ops are probably more closely related to Commandoes who's job it is to fight like ten men and be available for ten types as many missions as regular infantry. There is no place on the PR battlefield for SAS types who simply stealthily recon and assassinate things - they are a few hundred miles in front of the operations we participate in in PR. (NB. SAS can do everything Commandoes do, but aren't usually used for these tasks because Commandoes are more numerous and less costly to deploy - SAS and so on from what I understand are used for the things you can't use Commandoes for - deep infiltration and recon stuff).

While a move to a SMG might be a good one giving the Operators more equipment that Engies use is very bad. The Spec Ops' biggest problem realism wise at the moment is that they just aren't sufficiently better than other classes at anything important - not fighting, not recon, possibly battlespace access with their hooks (which is a finicky thing that doesn't often decide or heavily influence battles), and certainly the nearly useless task of demolitions. There is so little that's important to demolish on the battlefield that Spec Ops' biggest strength is pretty much wasted.

watch me

I wait with bated breath.

[Astromici]

I decided to make this long list for fun. Please comment on what you think of my ideas.
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For Special Forces in a forest
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For this, I planned the kit for extended engagements, especially because forest maps rarely have air support and supplies are hard to come by. Plus, I didn't include a GLTD because, no air support. Recon ability for this is relatively low, made for ambushing, silent takeout of infantry and assets, sniper hunting.)
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Personal Defense Weapon:Short Range Carbine
Tactical assault:Suppressed Pistol with ACOG's
Knife
Small Ghillie suit patches on model-no backpack, instead, a fuzzy patch of Ghille texture.
Painted Face
Hands(Disarms trip wires, SLAM's, C4's, etc.)
Thread&Needle Used as a very slow way to heal self, replaces bandages, unlimited
4 SLAM's
C4(s)
A lot of run
No body armor
Binoculars(If you must), shorter zoom level, faster movement speed
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Plains/Desert
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For this, I equipped more of a recon role. The specops for this isn't suppose to get his hands dirty in the fight, although it can be used to take out Firebases and such.
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Knife
Tactical Marksman rifle, suppresed, scoped. Basically a optical assault rifle, execpt for suppresion. Semi-Auto. Bullet drop at 300 M.
Submachine gun as a PDW
GLTD(Laser Designator)
A LOT of run, more than the forest
No body Armor
C4
2 SLAM's
Beacon(Emits a continual trail of faction-colored smoke until removed), also sets a marker on the map.
Hands(Disarms Mines, SLAM's C4, Beacons)
Bandages
Parachute(Performs HALO drops from choppers, especially LB)
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Special Forces Urban
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The Urban Specops is the most challenging, this guy should be a scout, meaning he should: Clear out buildings, Find Rallies, spot enemy positions, take out snipers and Foward Outposts.
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Knife
Hands-Disarms Mines, C4, SLam's, Beacons,ETC.
Silenced SMG with ACOG's -PDW/Assault Weapon/Tactical Weapon. Accurate up to 30 meters.
Tactical Marksman rifle, same as above
C4
4 SLAM's
Booby traps(Manually detonated AP explosives)-Could also be claymores, comes out as a ammo bag or a bandage, something that would draw the boobies to the trap.
Grappling Hook
Beacon(Causes a square to appear in a choppers vision indicating he should land there, gives off no smoke.)
Smoke Grenades-3
Flashbangs-3
Bandages
a lot of run
No body armor
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Suburban Forest-Any forest maps with a good bit of ambushing ground yet very open. Usually has little air support. You can usually get supplies on these maps with relative ease. I'm going to reduce clip count,especially because he has 3 weapons and needs to reduce some weight.
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Knife
Hands
Marksman rifle, not suppressed, clip of 5, reloads quickly, high drawback, more accurate than usual. Doesn't take long to get an accurate shot. About 1.5 seconds of making the scope stay still. 4 extra clips-25 shots.
Suppressed Pistol with ACOG's. 2 extra clips- 45 shots
Short Range carbine as a PDW. 6 extra clips- 210 shots.
A lot of run
No body armor
Needle&Thread
Binoculars
Red smoke beacon.
C4
3 Slams.
Slight bits of Ghille suits around his body-especially on the back.
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The silenced pistol and tactical marksman rifle can be morphed into something like this, and the PDW can have it's silencer removed. Just have two selectable weapons, like you do with the LMG's. One silenced pistol that takes half a sec to get out, and then another that takes a long time to get out and set up-attaching the sights, silencer, and bipod.

[Blakeman]

I would like to see the Spec-Ops kit changed to a Recon or Spotter kit with limited fire power. I will concede that not every map needs a Spec-Ops player but that has to be up to each individual player to recognize or for a commander to step up and suggest that a player might be more useful in another role.
I can tell you from experience that on maps like Kashan, Al Basrah and Ejod (of the top of my head) a good spotter can make the map.

I agree 100%, a spotter with ammo, Soflam, a scoped rifle and possibly a grapple would be perfect instead of a spec op.

[Truism]

I would like to see the Spec-Ops kit changed to a Recon or Spotter kit with limited fire power. I will concede that not every map needs a Spec-Ops player but that has to be up to each individual player to recognize or for a commander to step up and suggest that a player might be more useful in another role.
I can tell you from experience that on maps like Kashan, Al Basrah and Ejod (of the top of my head) a good spotter can make the map.

As someone who frequently plays as a sniper-spotter and more occasionally as a shooter, I can wholeheartedly say that spotting is a completely useless activity in PR which is fun because of the roleplaying or "make believe" element.

Having a spotter does not increase your efficiency or effectiveness as a sniper, and detracts from your team's overall effectiveness by removing a valuable 1/32 of the team from useful contact with the enemy, defense, building, whatever.

If snipers had some mean and realistic bullet drop and onscreen recoil that prevented them from working it out themselves, then spotters might be needed - if sniper got a massive boost to accuracy while moving crosshairs (like, realistic levels perhaps) as wel as this, then the whole system might somewhat resemble something realistic, and spotters would have a function, and the system would be lovely, and I'd have tea in a park.

Imo the whole system is going to be overhauled in 0.9. In 0.9 we'll get realistic ballistics (or we're going to get that in this version, and all the other things that make it work properly in 0.9), and really tiny deviation, as well as assymetry. 0.9 will be the patch that makes PR gameplay deliver all the promises PR's art, animation, sound and publicity make.

<3

[Tannhauser]

I don't have anything against the dev decision on this, it's their choice, but I hope y'all gonna put something else to replace ze infamous SFkit because obviously it has more functions and versatilty than those who blame it being a lone-wolf kit may think.

I find the grapple hook to be the best tool there, lets you get past large obstacles and pop trough enemy front lines without needing to barge in a choke point. In a squad I use the spec-ops pretty much for all that requires demolishing opfor abandoned assets, ambushing larger active assets and going trough walls, fences, cliffs and building blocks that normaly block your way. I also use the spec-ops kit in my squad to provide secondary healing capabilities in case the FMedic is busy and his ''pointman'' skills (CQB oriented, silencer) to tell use if it's a go or not during MOUT operations. May I add that he is also very useful when it comes to spotting and lazing?
I mean, why would the SFguy need to go alone on sunset for example? Going full squad with him being point with ROE to avoid engagements. Rallying in a building not so far from opfor FB then giving him fire support and diversion on the FB so he can SLAM it. I do that often on Sunset city and it works well in 5 man squads : Medic, Officer, SF, Rifleman, M249 AR. I tell ye, it works very well and it ain't no l33t recon squad, actually it's a classical frontline squad, just add demolitions, CQB preference and better mobility with the hook/rope.

Now please, stop saying to remove the evil noob-kit because it isn't a noob kit! Using a kit doesn't make you a noob, but being a noob using it makes the kit look useless! I know it can be a very helpful asset in many other situations than Kashan/Quinling 32/64.
Removing the kit with not replacement would be a grave error. Maybe modify it, nerf it or even just make different other kits that replace it, but don't just delete it like that, that'd be a big loss.

Well, that's for my opinion...

[fuzzhead]

Tannhauser I think you will be satisfied with the kit changes in v0.85 regarding SF.

[Majorpain]

Fuzzhead, how about a renaming of the kit to "Combat Engineer".

Its slightly more viable than Special Forces dont you think!

[gazzthompson]

After reading this thread I've got a few things to say about the Spec-Ops kit and its role on the battlefield:

1) This kit is very useful for recon. A battle is won or lost based on the intel that can be passed from the commander to squads that need it. With intel squads and assets can maneuver themselves to be in the most effective position to counter threats. Having run tank squads recently I can say that there is nothing more frustrating than getting flanked by enemy tanks who knew where you. On the other side of that, there is nothing more satisfying than knowing exactly where enemies are and lighting them up w/o giving them a chance to return fire.

no need for spec ops kit

2) There is noting more deadly than a SOFLAM lazing targets for a CAS squad (attack choppers and planes). In a coordinated CAS squad pilots know exactly where there support is needed and priority targets are designated by the man on the ground. Without spotters on the ground choppers and planes are flying blind and are easy targets for lurking AA and opposing choppers.

officer kit


3) If the Sniper kit is going to stay, which I suspect it will, there needs to be a spotter kit and currently the Spec-Ops kit fills that role well. The grappling hook is used to get up to normally inaccessible building tops and the SOFLAM spots targets and ranges.

only good role, and one that it shouldn't have as "rope man" for sniper.

bold is fun

[Alex6714]

Its sad that its come to the point where everyone wants a certain kit removed because they don´t like it and what people do with it.

Everyone hates snipers it seems, but 80% of the time I find they are better players than the rest.

I have a friend who likes sniping. He doest really play PR, but the times he has always the sniper kit. But he is good with it, he spots targets, he is teamwork orientated (*gasp* thats possible without a medic kit?) and above all he has fun with it.


This just seems to be the beginning of removing every kit and vehicle except medic and rifleman. Which obviously is better for gameplay and enjoyment.

[Waaah_Wah]

Alex6714;853346']Its sad that its come to the point where everyone wants a certain kit removed because they don´t like it and what people do with it.

Everyone hates snipers it seems, but 80% of the time I find they are better players than the rest.

I have a friend who likes sniping. He doest really play PR, but the times he has always the sniper kit. But he is good with it, he spots targets, he is teamwork orientated (*gasp* thats possible without a medic kit?) and above all he has fun with it.


This just seems to be the beginning of removing every kit and vehicle except medic and rifleman. Which obviously is better for gameplay and enjoyment.

^^What he said.

[Rudd]

(*gasp* thats possible without a medic kit?)

no alex, that is not possible

[Alex6714]

no alex, that is not possible

Damn, I think we are doomed.

[Scipii]

Just on the topic of changing the equipment avaialable to the Spec Ops kit, how about the the idea of perhaps including some of the following to the kit. (Sorry if my ideas seem a bit unplanned or stupid, haven't had much time to play PR v0.8 lately)

Flashbangs - Basically would help disorientate the enemy in rooms while clearing buildings I would assume. (someone involved in the military or SWAT probably has a better idea what these are used for then me)

Tear Gas, with Gas Masks for self defence - Another weapon helpful in disorientating the enemy and useful in situations such as clearing building I would assume. (someone involved in the military or police probably has a better idea what these are used for then me)

Silenced MP5 - Would help the stealth aspect of the kit, I would assume, by allowing the Spec Ops to quickly engage and eliminate enemies silently with a higher rate of fire then with a pistol. (possibly at a slightly longer range then a pistol?)

Zip Line - While the grappling hook increases the areas the Spec Ops kit has accessable to them having a zip line as well, I would assume, help get to some areas quicker (and perhaps more stealthily) then just a grappling hook and normal movement could.

Parachute - Possibly a stupid, or less realistic idea, but the basic idea is that it would allow the Spec Ops kit to parachute from exit air transport quickly at high altitudes. I've always like the idea of Paratroopers, so probably where the idea came from.

Perhaps one of the best ideas would be to design a new gameplay mode. The basic idea would be hostage extraction from an heavily gaurded hostile compound where use of the Spec Ops kit and Spec Ops tactics would be more benefitial then a head on assualt. Basically the enemy tries to foil the extraction of the hostage, while the rescue force has to obviously try and resuce and extract the hostage. Personally I feel it would be based around quick insertion by some method (say helicopter), or use of stealth (by having night maps with Spec Ops having Night Vision goggles perhaps), with action being probably fast paced as the Spec Ops attempt to get in and then out with the hostage in the fastest time possible, as the map could have say a large bias to the defenders having an advantage in numbers (often obviously by the fact the Spec Ops would probably be equipt to best handle situations such as room to room clearing).

I hope someone likes the basic premise behind some of my ideas, cannot wait to see what v0.85 gives, or removes, from the game in regards to Spec Ops.

[Spec]

The problem with flashbangs and CS are (besides the bad shader effect of the flashbang) that there is not much need for them on non-insurgency maps. Why throw a nonlethal grenade if you could aswell blow the room?

The zip lines are simply unrealistic as presented in BF2:SF. (And a crossbow is huge... and looks odd.)

Parachute was in for Special Forces until 0.5 iirc. Actually, I wouldnt really mind it being added again.

I completely argee with the silenced SMG, as I said. Would make the class very lethal at close range while still being silent, but would take away from the run and gun factor due to the lack of power at a range of more than 35 meters or so.

And I agree with the gamemode. Should be a community project though, the Dev's can not and do not want to focus on special forces.

[sakils2]

Eh, the only thing I can think of is blowing up vital structures. Perhaps you could extend the concept from just blowing up bridges to blowing up walls/obstacles/gun emplacements that open up new routes for the rest of the team. Perhaps even make some of those structures a spawn point for the enemy team. You blow it and it's gone.

I think we could haved a mode called "Hostage" (ROFL). The hostage is a REAL PLAYER with a kit, no weapons, just a field-dressing. He is held in a large building, city, village etc. If the hostage tries to escape, kidnappers are allowed to kill him. SF should infiltrate in the building, city, village. The exact location is unknown, they should check every building, hut, room etc. The hostage is saved if he is tranported to the SF operation base.
Of course, admins should monitor this mode. Or SF guys should pick up the "hostage" kit if the kidnappers try to pick it up they die.
(I remember something very similiar in the 0.5 pilot extraction)
SF wouldn't have a lots of tickets. I'm thinking about 32 or 64 Clearly for hard-core gamers, and no cars for SF. Maybe few technicals for kidnappers.

[TAW_Cutthroat]

Good idea sakils... but what if they get dsiconnected?