Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

[Nemus]

Good point.

How do lock-notification systems in jets work IRL? Do they start when the missile is launched, or when the AA has locked on, before launching? Perhaps this could also be realistically reflected in-game, if the missiles (or certain missiles) only give off warnings when the missile is fired.

There are 3 kind of notifications.
1) Energy source (radar or lazer).
2) Lock.
3) Launch.

Pilot maybe detects and IR launch but he cant know for sure if it is directed towards him.
Of course if a radar missile is directed by the launch pad he can see the threat from the direction of the pad not the missile.
As for the lock time is fast. But the pilot can break the lock by beaming, jamming etc.

I think that "problem" in PR is not the lock but the missiles.
IRL a missile has big differences.
1) Limited fuel. It has an initial impulse and after that it moves with its kinetic energy wich of course bleeding with hard turns. In PR it doesnt happen.

2) Missile has a lead pursuit intercept course. So "Beam and turn" is an effective counter maneuver. In PR it goes direct to target and beaming does nothing.

If we can somehow make the missiles less affected by flares before launch but more affected by hard turns after launch and give to pilots instant launch warning maybe we will makes pilots more cautius and give them a change to survive if they have the required experience.
But of course nothing is sure untill testing...

[DankE_SPB]

If I remember correctly, it has been few years you know... You were able to activate and deactivate the seeker as many times you wanted. Only thing you needed to pay attention to was the battery indicator on this 'HUD' if you can call it one. When it ignited, it was time to change the battery. So instead of refill, you will replace the battery with new full one.

You never 'scanned' the sky for targets with seeker on, that would be waste of time and coolant. It doesn't really work because targeting relays mostly on your eyes. There was no box which magically selects you an enemy airplane from the horizon and starts to beep wildly. That information came thru other routes. Though IFF was possible.

after digging some info
cool-able seeker was firstly introduced on Strela-3, coolant agent is liquid nitrogen
you can easily identify it, its storaged in black sphere(you can find it on Strela-3 and all Igla's)


this thing is disposable, activated before launch, can be replaced if launch was cancelled
lock signal is sound and light

[Celestial1]

There are 3 kind of notifications.
1) Energy source (radar or lazer).
2) Lock.
3) Launch.

Pilot maybe detects and IR launch but he cant know for sure if it is directed towards him.
Of course if a radar missile is directed by the launch pad he can see the threat from the direction of the pad not the missile.
As for the lock time is fast. But the pilot can break the lock by beaming, jamming etc.

Maybe, then, if it makes sense, to kind of include these types of warnings. A warning for energy souce detected, a warning that it is a directed lock, and the current signal for a launch.

The pilot would have more chances to know he is in danger of being hit, but the AA's locking could occur much quicker if that is the case IRL.

I think that "problem" in PR is not the lock but the missiles.
IRL a missile has big differences.
1) Limited fuel. It has an initial impulse and after that it moves with its kinetic energy wich of course bleeding with hard turns. In PR it doesnt happen.

2) Missile has a lead pursuit intercept course. So "Beam and turn" is an effective counter maneuver. In PR it goes direct to target and beaming does nothing.

If we can somehow make the missiles less affected by flares before launch but more affected by hard turns after launch and give to pilots instant launch warning maybe we will makes pilots more cautius and give them a change to survive if they have the required experience.

If it could be implemented in game well, that would be great. I know that I have tried to out-manuever missiles in game but I have yet to be successful...

I've only seen Igla, but never used one or held one on my shoulder. The portable type I used was set up on the tripod, which of course had its own 'deployment time' of about one minute.

Which would kind of like deploying a AA from a firebase. So that would be one of the ones that would have a HUD ingame.

You were able to activate and deactivate the seeker as many times you wanted. Only thing you needed to pay attention to was the battery indicator on this 'HUD' if you can call it one. When it ignited, it was time to change the battery. So insted of refill, you will replace the battery with new full one.

You never 'scanned' the sky for targets with seeker on, that would be waste of time and coolant. It doesn't really work because targeting relays mostly on your eyes. There was no box which magically selects you an enemy airplane from the horizon and starts to beep wildly. That information came thru other routes. Though IFF was possible.

So, just for the sake of implementing in game, if the HUD only showed targets that were locked ON, and not the ones that could be 'locked', this would simulate the fact that the AA doesn't just scan targets for you, you actually have to be able to see them to get a reliable lock.

Do you remember how 'fast' locking happened? Was it instantaneous once the seeker was on and the reticle was near the aircraft? Did it take a short moment to actually establish a lock before you could fire?

[Zoddom]

Maybe, then, if it makes sense, to kind of include these types of warnings. A warning for energy souce detected, a warning that it is a directed lock, and the current signal for a launch.

the problem is, there are no energy sources. there coul donly be a warning when you appear as a target on your enemies hud, not only when he locks you up, if you know what i mean.
ill draw it

as shown below, if you are in scan mode, every target on your hud gets a simple "tracking"-warning. in the second pic, the locked target gets a special lock-warning and in the third one, only the target of the launched missile gets a launch warning, (here drawn in russian version) and the other targets get no tracking warning anymore because the radar beam is concentrated on the locked one.
thats what it could be like if it would (if its not impossible) be simulated in PR.
if you want, i could draw it as mfd-version^^

[Celestial1]

as shown below, if you are in scan mode, every target on your hud gets a simple "tracking"-warning. in the second pic, the locked target gets a special lock-warning and in the third one, only the target of the launched missile gets a launch warning, (here drawn in russian version) and the other targets get no tracking warning anymore because the radar beam is concentrated on the locked one.
thats what it could be like if it would (if its not impossible) be simulated in PR.

Well, for one, you would start locking on to a target immediately in PR as of now, if you aimed at an Aircraft.

This would be the 'energy source' and 'locking' stages for a single aircraft; the energy source for other aircraft in the area is not likely to be needed due to the fact that it's not often you encounter two jets of the enemy team in the same area... Helicopters, maybe, but it's still not extremely likely.

A kind of substitute for this would be if the entire locking range of an AA would begin a small warning for the pilot (if the AA has a range of 1500m, then at 1500m from the AA the pilot would get a notification to let him know that he is in range of an Anti-Air device). Of course, to make this not be overpowered to the jet pilot (since he will instantly know he's in range of AA, but they may not see him), the radars could be switched on and off.


This would mean that if an AA wanted to scare pilots out of an area, they could leave radar tracking on, and any jet to come within 1500m will get a warning from their instruments that they are in range of an AA. This could be used to discourage enemy Aircraft from trying to engage your teams tanks, kind of letting them know 'you better not come close, or I'll blast you to bits!'

Or if the AAV is looking to get around sneakily to set up a position to begin denying airspace, he could leave the radar off but still scan the skies for enemy aircraft. If the enemy jet swoops down from the clouds, the AAV gunner could then turn on radar and begin tracking the enemy aircraft, then lock. During this time it would be up to the pilot to leave the area once the radar was activated, or to flare and turn to evade the missle.

And again, as soon as he is ready to simply deny airspace he can turn on the radar to scare pilots from coming near.


The locked signal would remain as it is, so that a pilot has a distinct notification to act now, or be doomed.






Perhaps friendlies would hear the 'energy source' notification, too? So they would need to make sure they know where their friendly AA is, so they know what is giving off the radar signals.

Can MANPADS/AA/AAVs in real life will lock onto friendly aircraft? I would guess that they do, but again I don't know.

(After gathering all this information, I hope to make an in-depth suggestion to kind of cover the most realistic properties of AA/Aircraft, but still trying to keep the right balance between reality and gameplay)

[dominator200]

I dnt really agree with as I was playing kashan tonite and was aa 8-10 times from ground emplacements and didnt get hit once it hit my flares and as I was in the f16 I was traveling fast enough to dodge them

[Zoddom]

Well, for one, you would start locking on to a target immediately in PR as of now, if you aimed at an Aircraft.

This would be the 'energy source' and 'locking' stages for a single aircraft; the energy source for other aircraft in the area is not likely to be needed due to the fact that it's not often you encounter two jets of the enemy team in the same area... Helicopters, maybe, but it's still not extremely likely.

A kind of substitute for this would be if the entire locking range of an AA would begin a small warning for the pilot (if the AA has a range of 1500m, then at 1500m from the AA the pilot would get a notification to let him know that he is in range of an Anti-Air device). Of course, to make this not be overpowered to the jet pilot (since he will instantly know he's in range of AA, but they may not see him), the radars could be switched on and off.
....

but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

[Sgt.Heine]

i say let the piolt know they are being targeted so they have time to react.

[Celestial1]

but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

You're contradicting yourself, if I understand you correctly. You say the AA's are useless without radar... but if you would turn the radar on you would risk a SEAD strike.

However, wouldn't being able to turn the Radar both ON and OFF solve that issue? You would leave the radar off when you're traveling, and when you are ready to deny airspace, you would turn the radar on to engage enemy jets and attempt to scare them out of the airspace before they are able to do any damage to your teammates?



I'm not sure how SEAD strikes would really work out ingame, but it'd be interesting, for sure. According to Wikipedia, the USAF's F16/F-18s can outfitted with the AGM-88 HARM (or the AGM-154 JSW, apparently?) for these purposes... the RAF's Tornado GR4 uses the ALARM missile. Both are anti-radiation missiles, which would mean they target enemy radars.

I'm not sure what RU/MEC/PLA would use as equivalents, but I would suppose just for the sake of fairness they would get guided anti-radiation missiles on certain jets, too. The F-16 in game is used as a 'fighter' jet, whereas the GR4 is used as a 'bomber' jet... while it may not be a big issue for them, it seems like it might be strange that a fighter jet on one map has this role while it is taken away and given to the bombers on others... especially since most of the jets are relatively identical in their own class (Fighters have guns, short and long range AA missiles, and guided bombs... Bombers have guns, Air-To-Ground missiles, guided bombs, dumbfire rockets, and short-range Air-To-Air missiles... Two seaters have guns, A2G missiles, guided bombs, and short-range A2A missiles...)

Maybe the SEAD missiles could somehow be able to be used from longer range, like how bombs could be dropped from out of view of the target and guide themselves with a laser-designator on the ground... Maybe they could be made to automatically lock onto AAVs on the ground as long as the fighter is within a certain range (like being 800m away from the target, so that the missile has time to guide itself)... it would require a spotter to find the AAV, but the fighter could do some of the work from there?

If the radar could be turned on or off for targeting, then the jet would be helpless if it came in and the radar was turned off, because the AA could then turn ON it's radars as the jet passes the point where he could have fired a SEAD strike, and then would have to flare quite a bit to make sure that the AA missile doesn't lock or hit.

Maybe someone could clear up how both Radar and SEAD should work in this scenario? It's really hard to come up with a good solution when I don't really understand how they both work well.

[DankE_SPB]

Can MANPADS/AA/AAVs in real life will lock onto friendly aircraft? I would guess that they do, but again I don't know.

Igla's are equipped with friend-or-foe requester 1L14 which blocks launch on friendlies

[Eddie Baker]

I smell a commander deployable asset perhaps?

As I said, I don't know if the C-RAM LPWS has the ability to be manually tracked. Most details of it are classified. Otherwise, it sounds like it would function like a "man-in-the-loop" automated sentry gun. It is also huge; the system is mounted on a semi trailer. I don't even know if the weapon crew is even on the same trailer, or is controlling it from several yards away in another one (which would be my guess, since that's the way things seem to be headed).

MANPAD's do have 'HUD's, seen and used one with my naked eyes. But they don't have some magical seeker which wanders around the scenery searching for heat signature.

Depends on what MANPADS you're using. The Mistral does have a HUD in its optical sight, but the Stinger does not have an optical sight organic to its launch unit, only a peep-sight.

but it would be more unrealsitic to have the ability to turn radars off in aavs, because irl AAs are pretty useless without it and in addition to prevent enemy aircrafts from entering your area is a main idea of AA (besides the air surveillance, which is actually the main idea). If you would just turn on ur radar to "keep them away" you would risk a sead-strike (..irl, thats why i would say let the radars turned on)

The ZSU-23-4 has the ability to turn its radar off and optically track targets; this was a tactic used in the Vietnam War. SPAAGs (AAVs are amphibious assault vehicles) generally have a high rate of traverse and elevation; about 60 degrees per second or even greater. A skilled gun crew can use this to great effect against both air and ground targets. I would imagine this ability was also installed on the ZSU's successor, the Tunguska. Its missiles are SACLOS radio command guided. The sight is normally tracked and directed by radar, but since it is SACLOS, I would assume it could be manually tracked as well.

i say let the piolt know they are being targeted so they have time to react.

There is no system that can indicate when an IR "heat-seeking" missile is targeting you, only when the missile is launched and from what general direction. Only laser-guided (like the Starstreak HVM) or radar-guided missiles can be detected prior to launch.

[Zoddom]

You're contradicting yourself, if I understand you correctly. You say the AA's are useless without radar... but if you would turn the radar on you would risk a SEAD strike.

However, wouldn't being able to turn the Radar both ON and OFF solve that issue? You would leave the radar off when you're traveling, and when you are ready to deny airspace, you would turn the radar on to engage enemy jets and attempt to scare them out of the airspace before they are able to do any damage to your teammates?

(the russians use Kh-25P or Kh-38 for example)
i said if you could turn the radar off, it wouldnt make much sense to turn it on just to keep the air clean, but on the other side, if you turned it off for travelling you couldnt counter enemy air units which dont attack you in a sead mission...
The whole thing is much complexer than just "give them on/off button", you would have to include the ability of making a complete air defense for the team (Thermal AA like Avenger or Strela, Radar-AA guns like the ZSU Shilka or a Vulcan and radar-missile systems like Tor or Tunguska [and for real realism long range Air defense like S-300 or patriot)
furthermore i think its really unrealistic that a jet gets into an area where aa is, which is turned off, without knowledge about it!? If an army's air force would know that in an area were turned off radar-aa-systems then it would send some A-10s for example and a squadron sead-support if the AA wouldthen turn radar on... then the AA would be really helpless

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

[Eddie Baker]

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

Keep it in the crosshairs of the sight, just like any other SACLOS missile. The Starstreak can do the same thing, only it's laser-guided rather than radio command guided.

[DankE_SPB]

@Eddie: okay didnt know that you can manually "guide" a shilka or even grissoms. But how does that work? How do you control a missile into a jet without radar and thermal-sight???????? that sounds really unbelievable.

if your thermal sight is on, jet wont detect it, its passive, same goes for IR missile
shilkas and tunguskas has separate TV or IR channel for manual control(some other systems have it too) one of the passive methods is command guidance when launch platform tracks both target and missile and gives commands to missile, in passive variant(without using radar for detecting missile and target) missile carries tracer in its back, this was used in old ATGM, this kind of targeting called MCLOS iirc used on Tunguska for example

If an army's air force would know that in an area were turned off radar-aa-systems then it would send some A-10s for example and a squadron sead-support if the AA wouldthen turn radar on... then the AA would be really helpless

not really, every system has its reaction time, but for mobile complexes its pretty low, they also do not operate on their own, in example one machine has it radars turned on and share targets with 4 machines standing on some distance with their radars turned off