Project Reality Forums

gazzthompson wrote:The devs are fully aware. For a weapon to have ballistic every or all shots must be a tracer round. I guess they decided against this approach.

I'll wait a response from a DEV...

Maybe the Marine marksmanship skills are too darn good?

Kami.exe wrote:You're right, I'm a troll, what was I thinking sharing my combat knowledge that is imparted upon all United States Marines. My bust, if I would have known you're so ignorant and your battlefield knowledge comes from video games, and that is the "Rule of Law" I would have kept my mouth shut because obviously you have dealt with IEDs, Mortars, Rockets, Grenades and pissed off Iraqi's trying to kill you with their AK's You know that using the ACOG RCO that you're utilizing off-set aiming or 'Kentucky Windage'
You know that you cant just pull your weapon to the center of your chest and engage and kill a tango at 20 yards with accurate fire.
You know that there is no such thing as deviation with a shotgun, that it's accurate at all ranges even though in the real world the shotgun has the worst deviation, and is completely unpredictable.

You know better than I do!

How would I know anything, I'm just a dumb jarhead stuck in the middle of Baghdad, Iraq 2010 style.

I'm sorry for trying to bring a little more realistic play to a game that's sole mission is realism.

No disrespect, because I'm an aspiring Marine, but you can't just come on the internet, and expect us to believe your 'battlefield knowledge' without so much as your MOS, or anything, you dodged the question when someone asked...

nater wrote:No disrespect, because I'm an aspiring Marine, but you can't just come on the internet, and expect us to believe your 'battlefield knowledge' without so much as your MOS, or anything, you dodged the question when someone asked...

Yeah exactly.

If you could give us your MOS, Unit, Where you are stationed stateside.
trust me, it all falls under the rules of the internet, its closely similar to all girls being guys.

Accusations stop here.


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This thread is about deviation, keep it that way. Final warning before infractions start to get handed out.

sakils2 wrote:According to Jonny (he and zangoo were making a realistic ballistics for PR) weapon sway is possible. Have DEV's even contacted to him on this matter?

Surely this system would be better or not?

As far as I'm aware, weapon sway akin to FH2 is possible, where the weapon sway is merely in the animation - It doesn't alter the direction the rounds come out, but it does make it difficult to tell exactly where the centre of the screen is. I'm not sure how well the sway can be controlled, it would be nice if there could be a little animated weapon sway as it makes it slightly more difficult to aim straight, and if you can tie it into the deviation it can give a visual hint to your current accuracy too. Also if it is in the animation, it's quite a bit of work to do, especially since there isn't an abundance of animators in the dev team.

Equally I am of the opinion that ballistics would be a nice addition, but the issue with tracers is somewhat annoying. It's either all tracers + ballistics or no tracers + ballistics, you can't have the mix. From memory the community was pretty indecisive about it when a poll was up - But overall it's the devs choice and so far they have chosen to leave it be with the mix + no ballistics.

Overall I think posts like this aren't very constructive - Everyone has differing opinions on what would work best but no one shows any substance or proof that one way works better than another. And when people have the opinion that the deviation is ****, they don't offer alternatives or contribute in a useful way.

AquaticPenguin wrote:As far as I'm aware, weapon sway akin to FH2 is possible, where the weapon sway is merely in the animation - It doesn't alter the direction the rounds come out, but it does make it difficult to tell exactly where the centre of the screen is. I'm not sure how well the sway can be controlled, it would be nice if there could be a little animated weapon sway as it makes it slightly more difficult to aim straight, and if you can tie it into the deviation it can give a visual hint to your current accuracy too. Also if it is in the animation, it's quite a bit of work to do, especially since there isn't an abundance of animators in the dev team.

Equally I am of the opinion that ballistics would be a nice addition, but the issue with tracers is somewhat annoying. It's either all tracers + ballistics or no tracers + ballistics, you can't have the mix. From memory the community was pretty indecisive about it when a poll was up - But overall it's the devs choice and so far they have chosen to leave it be with the mix + no ballistics.

Overall I think posts like this aren't very constructive - Everyone has differing opinions on what would work best but no one shows any substance or proof that one way works better than another. And when people have the opinion that the deviation is ****, they don't offer alternatives or contribute in a useful way.

You can make the bullet come out of the barrel, not the center of the screen like in FH2. According to Jonny, a lot of animations have to be made.

I thought mix was possible.

I hope the last part was not aimed towards me, if it was then...

That wasn't criticism, nor it was constructive criticism it was a question, last question being rhetoric. Also, never said that the current system is ****. Personally I don't have any problem with it not in CQB, not in long-rang combat. Only problem I have with PR is LMG's, but , unfortunately, the way LMG's work now aren't going to change any time soon.

Yeah the last bit wasn't aimed at you, I probably should have said 'threads' instead of 'posts'

Ah yes, I had heard that bullets could come out of the barrel instead of the screen - Though I don't remember much discussion on it. The work to do it must be pretty hefty.

Mix of tracer + ball may be possible. I got the general consensus that a solution hadn't been found, hence the workaround they have in Combined Arms. But maybe some investigation is in order - Now I'm intrigued

Deviation....


Hmmmz. I love it. Love it. Love it. It isn't perfect and it has it's flaws but it is much much better than .6 laser rifles that we had.

Really, when it comes to deviation it's a matter of patience and teamwork. I have knocked down too many people who just stand there, and think that counting will make me stop hitting them. I also knock down too many people who don't have the advantage.

Here's a tip guys, if you see a group of enemies and your one lone guy, wait for a squaddie. Your chance of surviving increases. Better yet, get eyes on contact and wait for your squad. I also heavily recommend getting an Aimpoint or ironsights. These are amazing ingame. I don't ever take an optic anymore and it's helped me.

Often times I think I die more to taking a scoped kit than anything else.

[R-MOD]Eddiereyes909 wrote:Deviation....


Hmmmz. I love it. Love it. Love it. It isn't perfect and it has it's flaws but it is much much better than .6 laser rifles that we had.

Really, when it comes to deviation it's a matter of patience and teamwork. I have knocked down too many people who just stand there, and think that counting will make me stop hitting them. I also knock down too many people who don't have the advantage.

Here's a tip guys, if you see a group of enemies and your one lone guy, wait for a squaddie. Your chance of surviving increases. Better yet, get eyes on contact and wait for your squad. I also heavily recommend getting an Aimpoint or ironsights. These are amazing ingame. I don't ever take an optic anymore and it's helped me.

Often times I think I die more to taking a scoped kit than anything else.

its much better than your avatar thats for sure TROLOLOLOL

i think people are complaining about the wrong thing it isnt the deviation that is bad its the registration of the hits and hit registration is pretty much the will of the gods.

what eddie said having iron sights or reddots is much better for Assault rifles and they dont have a huge penalty in CQB which is really useful it takes some time to get used to not seeing things though. Sure the deviation needs some tweaking that the devs will no doubt do on their own, who knows maybe mosquil comes up with some crazy way of giving us realistic weapon sway, what you have to remember that the current system is a far cry from the one in .8

long range settle time is perfect. close range is a joke.

watch any CQB training video and you will see soldiers running, strafing and easily shooting targets 5m in front of them.

now try it in PR. You soldier is so pathetically slow at everything he does, but to top it all off: He can't hit anything in close quarters without pausing for a breather because he's so puffed after carrying his gear around. He has to stop for a second or two to think about shooting that enemy soldier standing right in front of him.

a0jer wrote:long range settle time is perfect. close range is a joke.

watch any CQB training video and you will see soldiers running, strafing and easily shooting targets 5m in front of them.

now try it in PR. You soldier is so pathetically slow at everything he does, but to top it all off: He can't hit anything in close quarters without pausing for a breather because he's so puffed after carrying his gear around. He has to stop for a second or two to think about shooting that enemy soldier standing right in front of him.

when using iron sights/red dots the CQB is fine. when using scopes... then yes, it can get abit wild

a0jer wrote:long range settle time is perfect. close range is a joke.

watch any CQB training video and you will see soldiers running, strafing and easily shooting targets 5m in front of them.

now try it in PR. You soldier is so pathetically slow at everything he does, but to top it all off: He can't hit anything in close quarters without pausing for a breather because he's so puffed after carrying his gear around. He has to stop for a second or two to think about shooting that enemy soldier standing right in front of him.

Sounds to me like your talking about how you can't shoot for a second after sprinting or jumping? If thats the case, well, don't jump or run when you think your going to get contact.

Web_cole wrote:Sounds to me like your talking about how you can't shoot for a second after sprinting or jumping? If thats the case, well, don't jump or run when you think your going to get contact.

I'm talking about general movement. Not jumping, not sprinting.

Didn't elaborate because it's unrelated to the topic of deviation, but reloading, changing weapons, raising sights, walking with raised sights and throwing a grenade are all strangely slow.

gazzthompson wrote:when using iron sights/red dots the CQB is fine. when using scopes... then yes, it can get abit wild

I have no trouble killing in close quarters, but clearing a building just feels slow and unnatural when it should be quick and brutal.

I find that most people who are pro-current deviation accuse all of those who are anti-current deviation of being vanilla noobs that prone-dive, bunnyhop, lonewolf, and don't use tactics. This is not the case. The problem is that CQB (rather, anything >100 meters) has become very sloppy. It is in these situations that vanilla run'n'gun tactics are more effective than a thought out advance or defense. Single shot is next to useless in these situations because of the ridiculous deviation increase between each shot. The squad with the automatic weapons that can run around spraying is the one that will be more succesful. It's basically the same reason that SAWs have such a ridiculous dominance in CQB. I can't explain how frustrating it is to have three people hip-fired by the same SAW gunner even though all three have been aware of him before they were engaged. Likewise, the shotgun has a ridiculous hipfire advantage (which is effective up to basically 30m in my experience).

Without proper accuracy, any kind of disciplined CQB method is useless.

Without proper accuracy, any kind of disciplined CQB method is useless.

I don't have this problem it seems, and after reading 'ordinary soldier' by Cpt Beatty I think that this idea of super disciplined CQB is rather odd when that book portrayed more of a, Grenade in, go in, shoot everywhere kind of method.

[R-DEV]Rudd wrote:I don't have this problem it seems, and after reading 'ordinary soldier' by Cpt Beatty I think that this idea of super disciplined CQB is rather odd when that book portrayed more of a, Grenade in, go in, shoot everywhere kind of method.

Yes but I find it hard to believe in RL if you found an enemy solider 5-10m away from you in a alley-way, you are unlikely to need 15-20 bullets to kill him I would assume. A disciplined use of single shot is simply not viable, where as full auto/burst mass spraying is.

All in all though, 0.9 deviation is better than pretty much all previous versions on balance. Sure close combat is kinda retarded, but it 'works'. I have no problem killing people in close combat, I find this the easiest place to kill people. However, a lot of the time it is quite hilarious to watch the fire-fights and just how many bullets are need in close combat to kill anyone.

My only real grip with 0.9 deviation is that dolphin diving is still a viable tactic to kill someone with..

a0jer wrote: reloading, changing weapons, raising sights, walking with raised sights and throwing a grenade are all strangely slow.

As opposed to what? When reloading you put the magazine back in the pouch and close it. When changing weapons, for example HAT, you would swivel your rifle and bring out the tube and either set it up or load it. A Javelin would take about 30-40 seconds IIRC.

I agree that raising sights is slow, but you must remember the eye has to adjust which is impossible to represent on the engine.

And the grenade pullout time is to simulate taking it out of your webbing or whatever. It isn't instant like CoD.

a0jer wrote:You soldier is so pathetically slow at everything he does

Soldiers in PR move at a constant running pace, as in they jog everywhere. Try doing that with full combat load and see how long you last....

Yes there are certain places where there can be a delay but that's mainly attributable to lag, the engine and whether you have recently jumped or sprinted.

google wrote:I find that most people who are pro-current deviation accuse all of those who are anti-current deviation of being vanilla noobs that prone-dive, bunnyhop, lonewolf, and don't use tactics.

I don't think that's the case, I certainly understand that there are many people, including seasoned players like yourself, who simply don't like deviation and I think that the pro-deviation players are more of the opinion that it is a necessary evil.

From my own POV I truly like deviation, I find generally that if I understand things I tend to like them a lot more and I feel that I have a very strong understanding of deviation to the point that I know instinctively where my bullet is going to go when I fire. For me deviation is vastly improved over previous versions and whilst ballistics etc would be nice that just isn't possible afaik with the engine that we have.

A lot of the disagreement here I think stems from a misunderstanding. For example I don't understand why you say CQB deviation is so bad, I never have a problem with CQB deviation in fact it is where I am most effective, probably because I adopt the "run around spraying with automatic weapons" approach that you mention. My argument is that if it works, why not do it? And if others are putting it to good use why are you not doing the same?

As Rudd mentions, I do not subscribe to any kind of ideal CQB method where you move tactically through a building single shotting hostiles, real combat from my perception must surely be more frantic than that especially when in an active warzone as opposed to some kind of terrorist hunt.

Tim270 wrote:Yes but I find it hard to believe in RL if you found an enemy solider 5-10m away from you in a alley-way, you are unlikely to need 15-20 bullets to kill him I would assume. A disciplined use of single shot is simply not viable, where as full auto/burst mass spraying is.

Meh, if I come round a corner and see a hostile I am blatting off as many rounds as I can until I kill him and that goes for RL or in-game.

There is a reason the US Army made all their weapons burst fire because the soldiers in Vietnam were wasting too many rounds on full-auto...

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote:
I don't think that's the case, I certainly understand that there are many people, including seasoned players like yourself, who simply don't like deviation and I think that the pro-deviation players are more of the opinion that it is a necessary evil.

As a compromise between realism and game engine limitations, I would agree that deviation is a necessary evil. I simply find that the limitations as well as the negative factors of the current system outweigh the good factors. A revertion to .5/.6 laser rifles would also be ridiculous. Basically, I feel that the time it takes to achieve previous deviation between single shots is too large (I think it's like 1.5 seconds or something in that neighborhood) and that there is a need for a deviation indicator (though I understand Mosquill has something like that in the works). Still though, I found that .75 deviation seemed to be the best.

In regards to single-shot, it's silly that automatic rifles can get better grouping (in a short period of time) than a smaller amount of single shots in that same period of time.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote:As Rudd mentions, I do not subscribe to any kind of ideal CQB method where you move tactically through a building single shotting hostiles, real combat from my perception must surely be more frantic than that especially when in an active warzone as opposed to some kind of terrorist hunt.

Given, I have never actually experience combat and it probably is very chaotic. That being said, in the game, CQB tends to be filled with "how did that happen" moments.

Given, I have never actually experience combat and it probably is very chaotic. That being said, in the game, CQB tends to be filled with "how did that happen" moments.

the way I deal with this is to not put myself in a position where probability controls my fate

even if you opponent gets 1 shot off there is a X% chance it will hit you in the face.

use grenades, don't charge in to buildings if there is no gain, keeping the dude suppressed inside is sometimes the better idea, hold position and get APC support to blast him out, there are more options avaliable to you than simply putting your fate in the hands of latency, probability and one on one skill.