[Server Option] Disallow HAT and CE in Insurgency mode

[deadlie1]

It ruins gameplay. ban ban ban other servers are doing it but hardcore wont. where are the asshats gonna play that have been banned from other servers for doing this? HARDCORE....maybe? Headaches anyone?

[TheOldBreed]

Clear line of sight on a cache in Korengal?

yep we were sitting up at the outpost and it was just in a tent down across the river haha

[snooggums]

What part of what I said earlier are you not understanding?
Yes, ONE CE and HAT can ruin a game, especially large maps with open ground. I have seen lots of armor destroyed in one round because one guy was just reloading on a cache, running up a hill and one shotting stuff, rinse and repeat, it is ridiculous.

Cool, he gave the cache location away. BluFor should use all of their superior weaponry and artillery to take it out form a distance. One TOW can't stop them all.

As an admin of HARDCORE servers, I am not about to sit around and watch both sides to ensure people do not take these kits out.

So, you won't do your job if you guys decide to make that rule which accomplishes the same thing as making a server option in the code?

It is so funny, everyone sits around and makes all these assumptions on nothing they really know about, yet someone who has actually been there and done that and is scheduled to do it again, no one listens to.

I'm an admin, I know what I'm talking about.

H[=CubCadet1972;1352755']Some regulars are that vicious, but it still causes the admin to have to drop everything and deal with a situation that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Since PR's player count isn't really all that high, we have taken it upon ourself to try to teach the newer players instead of just banning them for stupid mistakes like some servers are known to do. The downside is that griefers crawl out of the woodwork to intentionally ruin the game play. The HAT and CE kits being handed over are a common occurrence, in fact, we currently have an active ban appeal in our forums for just that. The player wanted to "work an arms deal" with the other side.

The CE and HAT kit are just fine for AAS maps, but they need a revamp for INS.

How is that different than players who give the enemy intel, other than easier to police because you can verify the kit?

Again, I'm not seeing a real problem outside some players who might lose their toys (armor) since on insurgency maps the infantry actually gathers the intel and takes out the caches 99% of the time. Losing a HAT doesn't ruin the game, and griefers will just find a different way to grief. Again, the other option is to not make a rule and punish players like your example who are simply griefing and not just being stupid and lost HAT kits won't be a problem anymore.

[illidur]

what is super funny is that everybody is saying they ban/kick for it but nobody wants it just gone? sounds like a bunch of hypocrites. "its like people intentionally giving intel" well atleast this can be stopped. you can't track kits without wasting slots on the server. you can tell when somebody is giving intel by looking at their - 50 kdr....

and only noobs say they can't use armor to kill caches or help the team. maybe they could more often if ce kits and hats weren't the new rifleman.

i guess its realistic for 1 insurgent to hat snipe a whole squad of armor. whether you like armor or not its still massive ticket loss without even trying. you can do even more with a combat engi kit though. infinate bombikes and you can't retrieve the kit..... lol its worse than dropping ieds off the bike.

it is also funny that people only use the hat for trying to snipe a cache... the devs should just make it so arty kills caches again if they want gameplay like that. and yet again only a noob has to snipe a cache with a hat.

hat = horrible at teamplay

[fuzzhead]

Please keep the discussion civil or thread will be closed.

Dev Team will listen to feedback but be sensible about it, shouting and name calling is just gonna get this locked and then those with some actual decent ideas wont be heard...

[ralfidude]

Somebody has mentioned earlier that armor doesnt help?

I would just like to inform you that we in the Hardcore server take heavy assets VERY VERY seriously. It is then because of that, that we do such a fantastic job of using it, at least most of us.

We use vent to utilize the armor in the most needed places and encourage players to join our vent to improve their gaming experience, so they can share in this vast help of armor or CAS support. Each time we get armor, we get a silly amount of kills, destroy a couple of caches ourselves, and provide great and accurate intel on cache locations (Since ppl are still silly and shoot RPGs from caches at armor as they pass by). This can be accurately shown in this video where we organize a fantastic teamwork night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FP3TnBX ... r_embedded
This one depicts the use of vent for info and so forth but it was also a similar night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sws6-LliT3U


That said, on a map such as AlBasrah, where the tank spawns only once, a HAT thats taken out will be bad business. Additionally, a constant stream of suicide bikes (Which on the most part are very hard to kill if they are not coming directly at you) will destroy any and all major vehicles, FOBs, and large groupings of enemies.

Next time i get my hands on my a CE kit i will show you just how badly the Bluefor team get whacked, and just how many tickets it will cost them, where in the end, it cuts the map time in half of what it would have been if we werent to get our hands on it. Thats at least a couple of hundred tickets in the end.

In anycase, the amount of times these kits ACTUALLY come in handy VS the amount of time they cause pain is obvious. In some servers its more of 50/50, but in other servers its more of 20/80 (respectively).

Removing the C4 from the CE kit is VITAL.

Removing the AA from insurgency on bluefor is VITAL, there is ABSOLUTELY no need for it.

HAT is much more debatable, iv seen its use be used for good, however out of all the times i see the hat being used, that happens SO RARELY that its just best to get rid of it all together.





PS: Do not start a flaming war against clans, thats not this posts purpose, leave ur comments about these clans to yourself. At most you can mention their server rules to get ur point across but stop back stabbing cuz its not pretty like fuzzhead said.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

what is super funny is that everybody is saying they ban/kick for it but nobody wants it just gone? sounds like a bunch of hypocrites. "its like people intentionally giving intel" well atleast this can be stopped. you can't track kits without wasting slots on the server. you can tell when somebody is giving intel by looking at their - 50 kdr....

and only noobs say they can't use armor to kill caches or help the team. maybe they could more often if ce kits and hats weren't the new rifleman.

i guess its realistic for 1 insurgent to hat snipe a whole squad of armor. whether you like armor or not its still massive ticket loss without even trying. you can do even more with a combat engi kit though. infinate bombikes and you can't retrieve the kit..... lol its worse than dropping ieds off the bike.

it is also funny that people only use the hat for trying to snipe a cache... the devs should just make it so arty kills caches again if they want gameplay like that. and yet again only a noob has to snipe a cache with a hat.

hat = horrible at teamplay

It has nothing to do with hypocrisy, it has everything to do with kits that can destroy team play. The kits, in their current configuration, should go. If that means removing them completely, a change in their loadouts, their selection not being permitted on INS maps, or some other way of balancing it really need to be addressed.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

It ruins gameplay. ban ban ban other servers are doing it but hardcore wont. where are the asshats gonna play that have been banned from other servers for doing this? HARDCORE....maybe? Headaches anyone?

I personally would love to see those kits forbidden on our INS maps if the devs decide to not do anything with those kits. That, however isn't the way that we run our show at =]H[=.

[snooggums]

Somebody has mentioned earlier that armor doesnt help?

I would just like to inform you that we in the Hardcore server take heavy assets VERY VERY seriously. It is then because of that, that we do such a fantastic job of using it, at least most of us.

That is the problem, the focus on armor is clouding your judgment on the actual effect on game play overall. When armor is not used, infantry will roll insurgents because shotgun = 10 intel per insurgent arrested at range. Caches come up, infantry can sneak in stealthily and take it out.

Even when armor is used perfectly you have to sit back far enough to see bomb vehicles incoming, and that means your field of view into a city is limited. You only get kills for the insurgents who aren't smart enough to keep their heads down. Even 40 kills by a tank is the same as four shotgun kills by a single infantryman for intel. Plus the infantry can get into the buildings where the caches are, etc.

Armor doesn't help very much and is not pivotal to the BluFor. It's help is minimal compared to the number of tickets that are lost when it is destroyed, and unless the insurgents are incompetent or the BluFor aren't going into the city at all because they are defending the armor, then it is counter productive to have the armor in the field taking boots off the ground. I'd say 90 % of the games on Al Basrah have a dead tank in 30 minutes plus the landies and light armor that also gets destroyed. That's a lot of points, and easily lost whether the HAT is in play or not.

Your server rules posted in the server forum don't include any kind of chain of command that would allow players working as an organized team to disallow these kits. Maybe having a follow the chain of command rule would work on your server to address the kits on Insurgency or does that already take place as a given?

*I like using armor on insurgency too, I just realize it isn't the most effective plan in the majority of cases and I don't let getting killed by a HAT lost to the enemy ruin that fun.

[illidur]

i survive in a tank the whole round regularly and i'll get caches doing it. i dont survive when a squad of bombcars and fake garys using strategy kills me.... or a hat. you should crew any asset with me and see how its done.

sounds like your judgement on the issue with the kit is clouded by hate for armor.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

That is the problem, the focus on armor is clouding your judgment on the actual effect on game play overall. When armor is not used, infantry will roll insurgents because shotgun = 10 intel per insurgent arrested at range. Caches come up, infantry can sneak in stealthily and take it out.

Even when armor is used perfectly you have to sit back far enough to see bomb vehicles incoming, and that means your field of view into a city is limited. You only get kills for the insurgents who aren't smart enough to keep their heads down. Even 40 kills by a tank is the same as four shotgun kills by a single infantryman for intel. Plus the infantry can get into the buildings where the caches are, etc.

Armor doesn't help very much and is not pivotal to the BluFor. It's help is minimal compared to the number of tickets that are lost when it is destroyed, and unless the insurgents are incompetent or the BluFor aren't going into the city at all because they are defending the armor, then it is counter productive to have the armor in the field taking boots off the ground. I'd say 90 % of the games on Al Basrah have a dead tank in 30 minutes plus the landies and light armor that also gets destroyed. That's a lot of points, and easily lost whether the HAT is in play or not.

Your server rules posted in the server forum don't include any kind of chain of command that would allow players working as an organized team to disallow these kits. Maybe having a follow the chain of command rule would work on your server to address the kits on Insurgency or does that already take place as a given?

*I like using armor on insurgency too, I just realize it isn't the most effective plan in the majority of cases and I don't let getting killed by a HAT lost to the enemy ruin that fun.

I completely agree with your opinion about armor on the INS maps. Way too much focus on protecting it. As a result, fools will march out of main with the CE and HAT kits looking to score bomb vehicle/ technical kills, or worse yet, spend the entire round massing around the tank.

I still feel that the benefits of the HAT and CE kits on INS maps as they stand now are far outweighed by their drawbacks in both game play and admin headaches. The TOW and LAT kits are just fine for sniping caches and vehicles. I wouldn't be so opposed to the CE kit if the c4 didn't stick to vehicles.

[snooggums]

sounds like your judgement on the issue with the kit is clouded by hate for armor.

I'm doubtful you are actually reading my posts, maybe just skimming them. Pointing out armor is not as effective as it is made out to be and also stating my enjoyment of crewing that ineffective armor because it is fun is not 'hate for armor'.

[Rudd]

talk about the issue, not eachother please chaps.

remember

Realism
would blufor use AA, HAT and CEs IRL?
no, yes, yes(but not with high explosives, they would carry detcord or whatever)

Gameplay
how would this affect balance, is this a severe problem for most PR servers?
Removal of HAT and CE removes choices of tactics from blufor, but also decreases risk.

Practicality
how easy is it to change?
this should be pretty easy according to my understanding, since the system already exists to load INS versions of kits (zipties etc)

[illidur]

i like the idea of changing the hat to lats...

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

talk about the issue, not eachother please chaps.

remember

Realism
would blufor use AA, HAT and CEs IRL?
no, yes, yes(but not with high explosives, they would carry detcord or whatever)

Gameplay
how would this affect balance, is this a severe problem for most PR servers?
Removal of HAT and CE removes choices of tactics from blufor, but also decreases risk.

Practicality
how easy is it to change?
this should be pretty easy according to my understanding, since the system already exists to load INS versions of kits (zipties etc)

Reality: US Forces don't deploy Javelins into places where there is no armor. They are too expensive. Same with Stingers.

Gameplay: Yes, it causes problems. Player complaints about HAT, AA and CE kits out of the US mains are only a few steps down from tk complaints from poor grenade trap placements. wasting heavy assets and stealing air assets are the only 2 higher up. My figures apply to Hardcore servers only, and are not quantitative, only personal experience.

I personally would prefer a modified version of CE and HAT instead of their loss altogether. No Javelins, and get rid of the sticky c4. I like the idea of a mine clearing line charge myself, but I'm not sure how doable that would be. If not that, the ability to disarm grenade traps and IED's would be great.

[snooggums]

Although off topic, I'm fine with removing the AA since there are zero Insurgency air vehicles and the only result of taking that kit is losing it to the enemy. The best replacement would be a simple rifleman or unarmed kit in it's place so the request menu doesn't have to be changed or just upping the number of soldiers required an unobtainable number (like 64 on a team).

The only reason given so far for HAT/CE removal is that the Insurgents can use them against BluFor. Isn't that also the case on maps with Militia, where they don't have TOWs and their rockets are light? Why does Russia get a HAT on Fool's Road when the enemy vehicles are BRDMs/technicals which can be killed by a LAT as easily as Gary or insurgent technicals? Why is this an Insurgency issue?

If we go down this road because one team can use it more effectively than the team they take it from it could easily be expanded to a lot of different game modes and army match ups. While AA is unnecessary for BluFor on ALL insurgency maps the HAT limitation arguments are simply trying to make life easier for BluFor by not allowing them to make mistakes or making players be responsible. Not all game play issues need to be addressed through code, only the ones that damage game play on all game modes, like TOW spam or spawning conditions.

[gazzthompson]

H[=CubCadet1972;1353002']Reality: US Forces don't deploy Javelins into places where there is no armor. They are too expensive. Same with Stingers.

Source ? watch:

YouTube - Firing A Javelin Missile At Insurgent Sniper Hideout
YouTube - Marines vs Sniper
YouTube - US Army in violent firefight against insurgents in Falluja! (Infantry point of view)

etc etc, brits also use it ALOT in Afghanistan.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

Source ? watch:

YouTube - Firing A Javelin Missile At Insurgent Sniper Hideout
YouTube - Marines vs Sniper
YouTube - US Army in violent firefight against insurgents in Falluja! (Infantry point of view)

etc etc, brits also use it ALOT in Afghanistan.

3 javelins, likely used in the opening days of the invasion. Ask around with vets incountry now to see how many Javelins they see in the field now. They are more likely in Afghanistan than Iraq. The terrain supports their use. City environs do not.

[gazzthompson]

H[=CubCadet1972;1353011']3 javelins, likely used in the opening days of the invasion. Ask around with vets incountry now to see how many Javelins they see in the field now. They are more likely in Afghanistan than Iraq.

Eitherway, making the claim " US Forces don't deploy Javelins into places where there is no armor" is obviously incorrect, and un-sourced.

edit:

http://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/2009/ ... 200907.pdf

the Javelin has proved to be
extremely effective for today’s unconventional warfare and is actively
defeating not only armored threats, but also other vehicles, fortifications,
and urban targets in theater. Employed at the infantry company level in all
U.S. Army brigade combat teams (BCTs), Javelin is playing a prominent role
in both Operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom (OEF/OIF ).

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

Although off topic, I'm fine with removing the AA since there are zero Insurgency air vehicles and the only result of taking that kit is losing it to the enemy. The best replacement would be a simple rifleman or unarmed kit in it's place so the request menu doesn't have to be changed or just upping the number of soldiers required an unobtainable number (like 64 on a team).

The only reason given so far for HAT/CE removal is that the Insurgents can use them against BluFor. Isn't that also the case on maps with Militia, where they don't have TOWs and their rockets are light? Why does Russia get a HAT on Fool's Road when the enemy vehicles are BRDMs/technicals which can be killed by a LAT as easily as Gary or insurgent technicals? Why is this an Insurgency issue?

If we go down this road because one team can use it more effectively than the team they take it from it could easily be expanded to a lot of different game modes and army match ups. While AA is unnecessary for BluFor on ALL insurgency maps the HAT limitation arguments are simply trying to make life easier for BluFor by not allowing them to make mistakes or making players be responsible. Not all game play issues need to be addressed through code, only the ones that damage game play on all game modes, like TOW spam or spawning conditions.

TOW spam is a completely different subject that deserves it's own thread.

P.S. They reload way too fast, and have too many reloads.