Project Reality Forums

^added to op, perhaps mixed with acemantura's idea we caould place a limit on how many spawn cycles are allowed.

Bringerof_D wrote:it gives them a mulligan which is not what we want. a mulligan is used once you realize oh **** we lost half our guys, better go find a safe spot to let them spawn in.

My idea makes this thing (along with the additions of several others) pretty much only useful if set up prior to engagement and the team properly breaks contact and clears the area.

How is that any different than building an FO other than the sheer ease? The FO makes more sense than a rally point too and already exists in the game. Why does there need to be a change with the current system?

SeanRamey wrote:I've said this before but there should also be a limit on how many squad members can spawn on the rally. I think a good number would be 4, or make it to where each member can only spawn once. This way it's actually a rally and not a nearly eternal spawn point. Everything else I think is absolutely great!

Does it ever happen to spawn over 4 people?

I mean, only chance of that happening is someone getting sniped... Which is pretty rare/the SL should be facepalmed by deploying his RP in the open.

ytman wrote:How is that any different than building an FO other than the sheer ease? The FO makes more sense than a rally point too and already exists in the game. Why does there need to be a change with the current system?

What he is suggesting brings back parts of how the rally point used to be, Which i preferred much more to the one we currently have in place.
You almost need to have experience the old RP system to understand what he is saying.

I still support this idea 100%

I like want to be able to place a rally somewhere, Go battle, Then, If we die, We can still retreat and attack from another angle.

I am normally the first one shot in my squad. I could be walking in the middle, Last person, First person, Dont matter, I always seam to get killed first. This way my squad could try to revive me, And engage the target, And if that fails we have a place to run back to, and not have to go from a firebase that is normally not where you need it, or a main with no cars.

Their might be changes in your suggestion i have not read, (since the last time i read it) But ya, This new system has bugged me, And i have just stopped using RP's altogether.

Ahh the good times of putting a rally in buddas lap, And now we spawn blessed by budda =P

Thank you, Bringerof D for a great suggestion.

One great thing about PR for me that I play so infrequently is that each release is often so different from the last that there is a learning curve to overcome and there is so little that is routine.

I would like to see a new RP system like this, which I think is very valid.

One thought I had to ensure that FOBs are not made obsolete is to require that a team build a FOB before any RP can be placed. Another idea would be to set a limit distance from a FOB. In other words, an RP could not be placed more than x meters from a built FOB. This would limit the uber-flank team that humps to the otherside of an objective before attacking with the security of a fall-back RP. It would also ensure that the attacking front is not too far extended across the battlefield without the proper support of a FOB.

Anyway, for those that are afraid that a reinforced RP system might make the FOB obsolete I think they have little to worry about. The FOB brings so many other potential elements to the battlefield that there will almost always be a need: AA, TOW, Mortar, HMG, etc.

bloodthirsty_viking wrote:What he is suggesting brings back parts of how the rally point used to be, Which i preferred much more to the one we currently have in place.
You almost need to have experience the old RP system to understand what he is saying.

I joined PR back in .85 when the BF2v1.5 released. I know the old rally system. When the servers were doing the .875b tests I jumped in on .875b or c. Never went back. The FOs are made simpler to build to ease the issues you guys expierence.

Still, that being said, I rarely see any squad incorporate logistics to attack plans. Basically, a single FO is built on the flag and defended (imo the worst possible use/placement of an FO).

We have 6 FOs to build now. With two logi trucks you can build 4 within minutes of any beginning of a round. With helicopters you can build with just one trip! There is simply no excuse for not establishing an FO anymore. Changing the rally system to a similiar way as pre .9 is a devolution of the interesting strategic warfare created by PR.

Yes. There is strategy to PR, not just squad based tactics.

I like want to be able to place a rally somewhere, Go battle, Then, If we die, We can still retreat and attack from another angle.

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of bricks. How is that ANY different from building and FO except that its rediculously easy, requires no preplanning, and suffers no strategic downside if the operation fails or is countered?

The reason FOs are in the game is to give a real objective for both teams to go after beyond just a simple geographical location. FOs provide an analogue as a base in PR where soldiers are stationed in theory (the spawn point). If you go and decide to waste your logistic truck in some back end forrest 2km from a CP you have made a mistake, you will suffer for that mistake.

Never attack unless you are sure footed!

I am normally the first one shot in my squad. I could be walking in the middle, Last person, First person, Dont matter, I always seam to get killed first. This way my squad could try to revive me, And engage the target, And if that fails we have a place to run back to, and not have to go from a firebase that is normally not where you need it, or a main with no cars.

I squad lead. I lead many charges. I go down a good deal (not a majority) and sometimes I tell the squad that its not in their best interest to revive me. I then spawn on the FO we just placed minutes ago and walk to where my squad is holding up, perhaps calling them to retreat so we can reengage.

How. Is. That. Any. Different. Than. The. Rally. Point. Changes. You. All. Keep. Suggesting.

Teams should be punished for not incorporating logistics into their battle plan.

There might be changes in your suggestion i have not read, (since the last time i read it) But ya, This new system has bugged me, And i have just stopped using RP's altogether.

You sir. Have a huge problem then. Rallies serve as a very effective tool to get lost troops back into the battle without having to risk the lengthy process of locating, reviving, healing, and reorienting troops. Ten minutes to recharge is also not too long when considering the length of many engagements/battles.

A few tickets is worth its cost if you can quickly turn about face and engage the coming counter attack or resestablish pressure on a defensive position.


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To Scandii:

I'm not worried that it would replace the FO as much as it would take away all that has been accomplished with the changes. Beyond that, get a commander and coordinate a use of the CO rally.

it certainly requires more pre planning then the current rally system. this also happens to be the reason why i'm asking for continued input, several ideas have already been added to address those issues you've mentioned. and as you say the current system is simple to use. and that's the main problem, its an after thought. this rally is designed to be placed before hand. it will take more time and effort to use then the current system, but will simple be more accessible while less mobile.

please reread the op if interested, otherwise unless you have anything to say that fixes or further augments my suggestion, please keep to yourself. your concern has been noted.

i also did not ask for this to be added to the mod, I simply wish for this to be tested. give it a chance to prove itself. Just like the last changes made to the rally point system, this will likely be tested first, so if it's bad for the game it wont make it into the next release so calm down.

So basically;

"Stop with your counter arguements. We wont address them. Just play along with it or GTFO."

ytman wrote:So basically;

"Stop with your counter arguements. We wont address them. Just play along with it or GTFO."

no, point out a flaw, and point out a viable solution. again this is something that wont just get put into the game just if i get enough people to say yay. so dont worry so much, if it was say something that requires a public patch then yeah fight all you want, but in this case most people wont even see it till its been tested. if it doesnt work, you'll never know it existed.

poking at a hole does nothing to fix it, and these same holes exist all the same with the current system.

Well you completely miss my point.

ytman wrote:Well you completely miss my point.

you're saying this system is essentially an FOB but requires none of the effort to use. you're saying the current system does fine and that this system is an infinite spawn which will be placed where ever when it is needed.

It is, however it's been added to the op to include a spawn limit. the current system happens to be exactly that, a die now place later option while this suggestion is trying to make it so that you must have placed it before hand in order for it to be most effective.

i found rallys to be much more useful and more challenging to use in the past even with just the old system in place. it was most of the time placed before hand along a route of attack. it was in a spot picked out before hand as tactically viable location. where as the current system is get fu*ked and go find a safe place to hide.

i also suggested that rallies must be picked up by the squad, if this works out after a succesful assault a squad must still fall back to the rally thus slowing the onslaught for the other team. this will create an environment where communication and coordination is a must since someone must hold the position while another squad leaves to pick up its rally.

I like this idea but unfortunately all my thinking on squad based does not significantly improve what has already been written.

However, I'm going to suggest something that is drastically different.

Why don't we let this option be taken by the Commander only?
This role has been somewhat rare, probably because (currently) it requires to be far from the battlefield. The organization of squads, display of waypoints and etc is a monotomous work for many that would at least want to be rewarded with some action.

So I propose the following:




- TRP will be represented as a a bigger pile of sacks than the RP (by the double).

- The Commander can display a TRP within 500m radius of a FOB.

- The TRP would be activated with the Commander and 2 team members within a radius of 50m.

- TRP is only spawnable for 10 minutes. After that, the Commander must retreat to the FOB to charge another in a supply crate. It takes another 10 minutes to reload, so that we can prevent over-abuse and consequently having a Rambo Commander. He has other functions than the sole creation of TRPs so there shouldn't be much freedom for him to do as he or she pleases.

- TRP can't be overruned. It can only be destroyed by stabbing it or a mere explosion of a grenade, mortar or armour shell to promote smart thinking as in where to place it.

- TRPs can only be deployed 100m away from the radius of an Objective. This way prevents easy capping.

- Slight increase of tickets as this would bring more heated action than currently.


Why this:

- Because the Commander's role would increase significantly if he tried to hold an offensive line, feeding his team a closer spawnable point. He is closer to the action and has the immense role of defending it by cooperating with other teammates. Plus, it's not a waste of human resources as this is the less played role on the battlefield.
It promotes FOB construction, alot actually, as they are critical for the placement of TRPs.

I am not for this idea.

If it weren't for the convenience of spawning in a person who has just joined the squad, I'd prefer to see all RPs removed have people spawn at FOBs (increasing their value) or Main.

i just had another thought on this while sleeping last night, would it be possible to link spawnable kits to the spawn point? what i mean is if you spawn on an FOB you can spawn with all the normal kits on the spawn menu, but on the rally you'd only be able to spawn as riflemen.

this should fix alot of Ytman's concerns. if your medic dies, you cant just call him back in to revive everyone else while they wait. if your squad leader dies the "rest of the section" would have to go pick up his equipment. same goes for medic and AR. equipment like that isnt so available IRL and should be recovered by fireteam partners before they retreat. This will also keep the FOBs a vital spawn point if you want ANY specialized equipment at all.

with this logistics would also become more important, a smart squad would call a chopper in to drop a crate near their rally..

Hmm, your point is kind of valid that it would maybe prevent rallys from being overused, but i can see one problem. That when all your squad dies but two riflemen, you will end up in time race, sprinting back to rally, quickly respawning and then sprinting with whole squad as rifleman back to place where you died so you can get your precious requestable kits back.

Second thing, in what way would this make sense? As I understand it, these guys spawning at rally would be guys left there. I dont see reason why they should have only rifleman kits, why noone could be medic, officer or AR.

I think that the lack of supply crate (all requestable kits) would be good enough to to make FOBs importnant.


I also want to warn you - do not complicate the system only for sake of it being complicated.

my only 2 cents

-lucky

lucky.BOY wrote:Hmm, your point is kind of valid that it would maybe prevent rallys from being overused, but i can see one problem. That when all your squad dies but two riflemen, you will end up in time race, sprinting back to rally, quickly respawning and then sprinting with whole squad as rifleman back to place where you died so you can get your precious requestable kits back.

Second thing, in what way would this make sense? As I understand it, these guys spawning at rally would be guys left there. I dont see reason why they should have only rifleman kits, why noone could be medic, officer or AR.

I think that the lack of supply crate (all requestable kits) would be good enough to to make FOBs importnant.


I also want to warn you - do not complicate the system only for sake of it being complicated.

my only 2 cents

-lucky

well realistically each section would have 1 or 2 AR gunners, two if its a large section, one if it's smaller or more important roles require filling.

i chose to represent a smaller section so that when a flanking squad gets decimated save for two survivors, they actually take a significant hit on a tactical level, while still being able to try a second or even third strike.

Bringerof_D wrote:i found rallys to be much more useful and more challenging to use in the past even with just the old system in place. it was most of the time placed before hand along a route of attack. it was in a spot picked out before hand as tactically viable location. where as the current system is get fu*ked and go find a safe place to hide.

It also made attacking a really really easy affair that required little to no coordination. Of course the spawn limit... limits this aspect. I want to point out that the current RP is less "Get screwed, hide" and more like "lost some men, need to pull back, reinforce, redeploy." Very rarely can you hide and place an RP when enemy's are about, generally you fall back behind the imaginary front line in a psuedo retreat.

In the end, making it so you have only a minute to spawn on it and it must be placed by the squad leader, means that you regroup your squad back up. Having it so that you place it before hand and allow for a 'trickle' of very limited reinforcements seems worse than the current version. All assaults rely on using more bodies at the point of penetration.

i also suggested that rallies must be picked up by the squad, if this works out after a succesful assault a squad must still fall back to the rally thus slowing the onslaught for the other team. this will create an environment where communication and coordination is a must since someone must hold the position while another squad leaves to pick up its rally.

I would really dislike this. First, why would a RP need to be picked back up other than to add a wrinkle to it all? Second, what if you get wiped and can't respawn on it anymore so you have to spawn at main a good 3 km from it? Third, what happens if it is overran? Fourth, why would you remove the very important strategic role of momentum and pursuit?

Basically, it seems that this is making the RP more like a really small base. Which then makes me think FO... but then its just completely worse.

What I am saying is you don't need two things to fill the same role. The RP you are suggesting basically acts as a very very limited FO that requires it to be recovered too. Just leave the RP and the FO seperate of each other. Used in different situations for different circumstances and reasons.

ytman wrote:It also made attacking a really really easy affair that required little to no coordination. Of course the spawn limit... limits this aspect. I want to point out that the current RP is less "Get screwed, hide" and more like "lost some men, need to pull back, reinforce, redeploy." Very rarely can you hide and place an RP when enemy's are about, generally you fall back behind the imaginary front line in a psuedo retreat.

In the end, making it so you have only a minute to spawn on it and it must be placed by the squad leader, means that you regroup your squad back up. Having it so that you place it before hand and allow for a 'trickle' of very limited reinforcements seems worse than the current version. All assaults rely on using more bodies at the point of penetration.



I would really dislike this. First, why would a RP need to be picked back up other than to add a wrinkle to it all? Second, what if you get wiped and can't respawn on it anymore so you have to spawn at main a good 3 km from it? Third, what happens if it is overran? Fourth, why would you remove the very important strategic role of momentum and pursuit?

Basically, it seems that this is making the RP more like a really small base. Which then makes me think FO... but then its just completely worse.

What I am saying is you don't need two things to fill the same role. The RP you are suggesting basically acts as a very very limited FO that requires it to be recovered too. Just leave the RP and the FO seperate of each other. Used in different situations for different circumstances and reasons.

because when we drop unnecessary equipment behind in the army, we tend to go back for it. it is literally just like a pile of rucksacks, we cant carry rucks into battle so we drop them off in a secure location and go into battle with only our necessary equipment, after the fight we go back to pick it up. we cant just leave excess ammo, food, spare batteries, clothing and what ever else behind.

also if you read through the posts on the first few pages, the concern of getting wiped out and the rally being left out there has been brought up. and i'm thinking of a way to circumvent that. one of the noted possibilities is that like the old rallies you can place another one at which point the old one will disappear. It is linked to the kit if i'm correct so if you die and need to spawn at main or an FOB with a new squadleader kit, then you'll have a new rally.

as for the one minute limit, the current rally only lasts a minute as well does it not? Part of this idea i feel would also benefit recce type squads, say 3 men are left to observe and 3 are sent in. the forward 3 die, in my system the squad leader with his nice SOFLAM can stay behind and keep eyes on and keep marking targets, while the other two move back to consolidate with the others