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7/30/11 0230 PST Changelog

Alterations to .tweak files in vehicles_server_patch1/Air (All jet files included in package, both modified and unmodified from v.96 release):

Gb_jet_eurofighter and Ger_jet_eurofighter
On each engine*:
Max Speed set to 23 (was 24)
Acceleration set to 130 (was 85)
Torque and Differential set to 70 and 107.
Maximum Angle of Attack set to 26 (was 35)
*Engine characteristics now match the v.96 MIG-29.
Horizontal Body wing lift set to 1.75 (was 2.25)

Gb_jet_tornadogr4 and Ger_jet_tornadogr4
Sprint limit set to .15 (was .1)
On each engine**:
Max Speed set to 22 (was 25)
Acceleration set to 100 (was 100)
Torque and Differential set to 85/112
Maximum AoA set to 35 (was 30)
Attack Angle set to 20 (was 15)
**Engine characteristics match this version's su-30.

Ch_jet_su30:
On each engine**:
Max Speed set to 22 (was 25)
Acceleration set to 100 (was 100)
Torque and Differential set to 85/112
Maximum AoA set to 35 (was 30)
Attack Angle set to 20 (was 15)
**Engine characteristics match this version's Tornado.

Ch_jet_j10:
Engine***:
Max Speed set to 25 (was 45)
Acceleration set to 140 (was 150)
Torque and Differential set to 150/250 (was 160/250)
***Engine characteristics now match the v.96 F-16.

Us_jet_harrier:
Engine code changes:
Modifications to "noEffectAtPerpSpeed" value on the following templates:
HelicopterEngine: 50 (was 20)
Each of the four Stabilizers: 40 (was 20)
PitchEngine: 40 (was 20)

Results:
Greater control of the nose pitch is retained while transitioning from hover to forward mode.
Hover engines engage sooner and reliably when transitioning from forward flight.
Nose rises slightly while in full-powered hover; easily compensated for by pilot control.

Testing conclusions:
It is now possible/far easier to transition in a normal fashion between hovering and forward flight. Pilots will need to compensate for the nose rising slightly while in full-throttle hover mode, and will need to input to keep the nose raised for both transitions.
Ideal launch procedure is to hover to 200 alt or higher, input full forward throttle while keeping the plane level on the climb, then pitching the plane up to 40 degrees when the climbing peaks. Keeping the nose raised while accelerating to normal flight should result in level flight at a safe altitude.
Transition velocity going from forward flight to hover marked around 400.

Short-take-off maneuver not yet implemented; pilots will still need to launch from a straight hover.

Camera/Weapon changes:
Item indexes on POV slots adjusted to match current system (7 for left, 8 for up, 9 for right).
NOTE: Wings do not display on side views.
WARNING: External camera options not yet modified from vanilla external views. Will need to be set to 6 o?clock view only before release.

Additional Comments:
During code exploration, I found that it is possible to set the sprint function on vehicles to "sprint" in the negative direction. Testing this on jets, it resulted in the jets airbraking safely. While fighter jets and fighter bombers already have the sprint key allocated for afterburner, it may be a fun experiment to implement this ?airbrake? on the ground attack aircraft which do not use afterburner (A-10, su-25, Harrier, possibly the Fantan as well). If gameplay potential is determined here, I will continue explorations on the matter.

Testing has not been fully expansive on the retuned jet handling, nor has the testing involved air-to-air combat or direct comparisons with the other jets. However, I have tested all of the modified aircraft, and it remains simple to take off and land despite the modifications.

just got ur PM, great stuff mate I'll take a look

Excellent work, good to see the Harrier get its coding finalized.

Short-take-off maneuver not yet implemented; pilots will still need to launch from a straight hover.

With this, does this mean the Harrier will be unable to take off from airfields in a conventional manner, as it will probably be required to do on Sangin for example?

Is there a trick to switching to VTOL in midair? I have no idea on the RL procedure, do you have to bleed off your speed first and then turn it on?

Will take a look at this when I've got the chance.

As for the "Vertical Take-Off" bit, the Harrier in r/l can not vertically take-off with a full tank a fuel and/or a full load of weapons, as it goes into combat with. Unfortunately there is no way I know of that we can realistically represent this in game so you can't take off with full load of weapons, but once you have dropped them you can land vertically, but forcing take-off to be done by vertical take-off is a big no no. Short Take-Off is a must feature for the Harrier.

Jafar Ironclad wrote:I even got the POV views working (although the wings don't show up in the side views). Harrier file coming soon after a little more testing.

Cool, as for the wings not showing up, that would be down to the wings not being part of the first person model, need to make a note on that to get them included in it.

Cheers!

well the harrier can take off from the essex ingame, though its only just able to - you lose about 5m of altitude when you go off the end

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:forcing take-off to be done by vertical take-off is a big no no. Short Take-Off is a must feature for the Harrier.

This is what I'm working on right now. I also ported over the changes to the GB Harrier. Some odd little flight inconsistencies between the aircraft, but works on that bird too.

I'd also like to make a new minimap icon for the Harrier. Any idea where I can find the other icons for reference? They're not where I'm expecting them to be (in menus)

Okay, I now have Short Take-off implemented. Side effects include even safer transitions. Video will be made for this thread shortly with both taking off and landing.

I tested your last code really quickly in the editor and tbh, I couldn't feel much difference from what it was before tbh. You still need to slow the harrier in a ridiculous way by sticking its nose up in the air in order for the hover to engage otherwise your nose just drops into the ground/sea, even at high altitude..

As for the minimap icon, seriously don't worry about that kinda stuff now, get the code done first and think about that stuff later, just make a note of it for later.


I haven't tested your other jets but from the looks of things you've been trying to make them all the same pretty much? I agree some changes need to be made to them, but you should be looking at keeping some differences between them as we do not want every jet flying exactly the same. Do a little bit of research on each jet, find out its stats and try and put thous r/l performance stats in as close as you can


I also have a little treat for you which I'll post in the forums in a bit

Updated code for the US Harrier here (Working STOVL, more reliable nose activity). Just replace the con and tweaks in the folder.

I think I've solved the nose problem completely too. I did some flying on Jabal and am uploading the video now.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote: I haven't tested your other jets but from the looks of things you've been trying to make them all the same pretty much? I agree some changes need to be made to them, but you should be looking at keeping some differences between them as we do not want every jet flying exactly the same. Do a little bit of research on each jet, find out its stats and try and put thous r/l performance stats in as close as you can

Understood. I wanted to make sure the team wanted small differences between the jets in addition to them being balanced, before I started working on that. I'll hammer that once I've dealt with the Harrier.

Yep, just don't make any jet too powerful, what we are looking for is just enough difference so that each aircraft has its own advantages and disadvantages so that proper tactics can be applied

Also here is my test_airfield map for you to use
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f354-c ... eased.html

This is me flying on the latest released code. May still be processing.

My dad was a flying instructor and squadron leader on harriers (GR2) for some time in Germany operating from dispersals - if you need any info just post or PM me.

I'm sorry but that take-off was just god awful

The take-off really needs to use the whole entire deck, a few quick ref vids (also note in the second vid how the harrier lands, sweeping in front the side of the ship after getting into a stable hover, not hovering directly above it, and last vid is a British GR9 taking off Ark Royal's Ski Jump:






Your transition from normal flight to hover was also too fast. You want the transition to take a bit of time for it to fully slow from normal flight, you just don't want its nose to drop like it was before as soon as it got to low speeds as soon as you get to stall speed, the vertical flight takes over the lift from the wings.

This is a good vid (also shows take-off) of vertical flight taking a bit of time to engage:



This is also a pretty good vid that might help ya.



Its hard to comment on the rest from watching a vid, but one thing I noticed before with the last code was when leaving the jet to fly strait and level, its nose would dip below the horizon on its own, might want to look into doing some trimming there

Anyways your getting there, just keep plugging away at it and it will all be good soon!

Roger on all. Thank you very much for the reference videos. Guess my objective list for the harrier now stands at:

1. Retune Short-take-off to take about twice as much distance as it currently does.
2. Increase the amount of time it takes to transition from full forward flight to VTOL, while retaining the switching airspeed. (I think this means making the jet engine's acceleration slightly slower; I'll also try slowing the VTOL engine's acceleration and raising the threshold airspeed to compensate as an additional measure)
3. Trim out the nose-drop in regular flight (Probably through adding winglift to the overall system; this may help the takeoff distance issue as well if I have to throttle back the pitching power).
4. I'm finding that the Harrier's rotational handling in hover mode is slightly too aggressive. I think I'll trim those down a bit and see if it helps.
5. Overall, hunt for pitch trim problems.

Remaining questions:
1. Does the harrier have an air brake? (I assume it has a wheel brake). If so, I'd also like to experiment with adding an airbrake to the harrier in the form of a reverse-sprint function (Hit shift to slow down instead of speed up). This would only apply to the forward-flight engine. It might not be possible to match with the displayed model, but still an idea.

Latest file uploaded.
According to my testing:
Take-off now uses the whole Essex deck.
Transition from forward to hover takes a little longer now.
Nose does not rise as aggressively while in hover; still requires careful control by the pilot to stabilize.
(Disabled the four stabilizer engines by setting their torque and diff to zero).

Is it just me or are the rudders not working at all? And why is there no HUD?

Use the US Harrier, not the British Harrier. I haven't ported the code to the Brits bird yet.

Right taken a look at your latest Harrier code, big improvement from what it was before that's for sure

Take-off distance feels spot on now, although you really shouldn't be pulling back on the stick until the very end of the flight deck btw to get your maximum speed before getting off the ground.

The transition from normal flight to hover also feels good now too and as realistic as we are going to get it I feel


One problem with hover flight thou is that you can't sweep left/right very easily, as you would do landing on a carrier in r/l as if you hover along side, then tilt your wing right, even with full rudder left your nose still swings to the right and down.
First pic shows me in a somewhat stable hover beside the ship, although still going forwards a little, and second pic shows after I tried to sweep over the right by tipping my wing down to the right, and full left rudder lock to try and stabilize it and as you can see, not a very good outcome there



One way to fix this might be to make the rudder more responsive in hover mode, but this is a maneuver that the harrier should be performing with ease.

Other than that, I think the hover feels pretty good to me


There is also a slight issue with speed, as the harriers top speed in r/l is 1,070 km/h at sea level where it dosen't feel that fast ingame, epically compared to the Su-25 which its r/l top speed is 950 km/h and its ingame speed is "1230" (harriers ingame speed is 1160, also note that ingame speed isn't in any units. Also the A-10's r/l top speed is 706 km/h and ingame speed is 1050 but these speeds aren't accruate, just give you something to work with).


The conventional landing and take-off felt good, although normal landing might have been a little short, managed to land it in between 400 and 450m but ye, that sounds about right for a STOVL aircraft for me anyways epically for a rolling landing that the Harrier can perform (basically a mixture of vertical and normal landing for a really short normal landing, which according to this video below the harrier can do a rolling landing in 150m so ye, all good )





As you mentioned it still has that slight drop of the nose when trying to fly strait and level which is ye annoying, but would be good if you can fix it. Think you may need to move the wings forward or something a little, just have a little play see if you can work it out but if not, not a big deal


So ye in regards to fixing stuff that isn't flight physics there are a few things that need fixing there too if your interested.

One is of course the 3rd person views, they need to be made to PR standards (currently vBF2 standards) and for the rear view if you can look at doing it the A-10 method where the view is behind the cockpit. Some of the new jets have the view over the cockpit and it just looks silly, if you also fix up any other jets if you could fix that too that would be sweet



One other big thing that needs fixing with the Harrier is its flaps, which for some odd reason are currently being used as ailerons (most likley not your fault and you also might not be able to fix them tbh as it might be a job for the exporter).
These are the inner flaps of the wing and are really large, and at the moment going up and down when you roll left or right, which only the flaps on the end of the wings are meant to be doing.
This inside flaps are only meant to come down when landing and when the hover is engaged and they come down really far, as you can see in these pic here:
http://v1.cache6.c.bigcache.googleapis. ... 840104.jpg
http://v1.cache3.c.bigcache.googleapis. ... 839246.jpg
They are used to increase the lift of the wings at low speed, as well as help direct the thrust downwards, as well as also acting a little as an air brake (also to answer your question before on air brakes, this is its main air brake although I think it has another under its belly behind its rear centre wheel which you can see in the pics, but not 100% sure if it is one or not but not sure about using "sprint" as a brake tbh).

You might be able to fix these flaps via code but if not, we will fix up the export scene so they work correctly

Also another point on the flaps, not sure if you have fixed it but I noticed in the version before this one is that they didn't smoothly move when using the k/b, they shot there really fast. Check the flap movement code on other jets and see if you can get your flaps moving smoothly even with the k/b.


There is another big thing that I don't currently have the answer for is on taxiing which the Harrier can't currently do. There is really two choices here that I can think of but if you have any ideas, please let me know. The first is to try and work in the current "taxi engine" that other jets use but this isn't going to work very well with the current code as if you push forwards when on the ground, you flip forwards due to the hover code so the only way to do it is find another button or something not in use that can be used as an engine, a little tricky
The other is to scrap the current system and go with another system, or go back to the vBF2 system of just using the main engines at slow speed which is also the most realistic but this dosen't have a reverse function (also realistic, but bad for gameplay since you can't be towed backwards as you would in r/l) and to do this, it would mean a big overhaul of the current engine code to allow quick speed up/slow downs of the engines (might be a good thing as that's also more realistic? ) but ye, a lot of work. See if you can get something working here anyhow as taxiing is something that really needs to be on these jets, can't have them all parked up on the runway like in vBF2


There is some other stuff like weapon load-outs etc to be worked out later but don't worry about that for now, just concentrate on the stuff above.


Keep up the really good work!