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Now that i've finally had a chance to play insurgency in .97 i've noticed major flaw in the INS system which was not there before. As i recall the point of insurgency is to have one team, being out gunned and less maneuverable, set up a defense and use ambush tactics to defend the objectives. Asymmetrical warfare.

in short the point of insurgency was to have the insurgents hide and prepare. However with the latest changes the next cache which becomes known to the Blufor team is the one that is left less defended. This leads to a lack of preparation from the INS and a need to move all the way across the map possibly through open ground in order to reset at the other cache.

now i find this flawed in a few ways:

1. Realism

a) If there is no insurgent activity in one area, why would the blufor get intel saying a cache is there? no informants would have noticed anything strange and report since a cache realistically would be stowed away and not sitting in plain sight in your living room. as well it is not uncommon for civilians to have a few weapons in Afghanistan.

b) setting up a defense is now pointless and in fact damaging to the insurgent team since the players spawned over to set up a defense before a cache is known would be in most cases stuck at the unknown when the far away cache becomes known.

2. Gameplay

a) I understand this was probably to help curb invincible caches, however due to the limitations of the game this has a much less desirable effect as making caches almost completely non defensible. Due to the fact that there is a lacking of many real world variables this change has only served to split the insurgent team in half as we know if we all spawn on one, the other becomes known, if we all move to the known, there are still patrolling blufor squads. this leaves the defenders completely out numbered.

b) a lack of civilian presence (actual innocent civilians) leaves us with the blufor simply bombarding positions that are already under manned with everything they've got not caring for collateral damage.

c) due to a lack of vehicles spawning around caches transportation is limited for INS team when they realize there is no one on the known cache. as we know most vehicles for both teams spawn at their main, however since INS tends to spawn on caches this leaves them with little transport in quite a few situations, while blufor which almost always operates out of the main base, are never short on wheels or wings. This allows blufor to simply rush a high volume of troops onto the known and not allow INS to enter the area while they search. the only way in at that point is to suicide and spawn inside which itself may not be possible once the cache has been over run.


Now i'm sure many players have complained about having to deal with too many RPG/SPG ambushes in the past and too well prepared caches being untakable, however this is a problem with the Blufor's play style, not the insurgency team's capabilities. I agree with asymmetrical balance, however this certainly has tipped the scale too far in one direction. With a lack of many real world variables this simply doesnt work. If this system is to be kept i believe cities must be made much denser and more obstacles be in place for blufor vehicles and aircraft for it to work properly. for instance choppers will not in real life attempt a landing on a narrow street with power lines or other over hanging objects where in game this is not an issue. more static vehicles clogging up road ways, fruit stands, civilians etc.

There is some time for dead insurgents to spawn on the next unknown cache, when cache turns blue, there is like 3 mins before blufor gets it into their map, 3 minutes for insurgents to get killed and spawn there.

Insurgent transportation cannot be too good, if it was too good, they would attack instead of defend.

The system works almost always, sometimes when blufor is noob and doesnt attack, enough insurgents doesnt get killed within those 3 minutes and if they dont get killed, they wont go to the 2nd cache either unless they are desperately bored and its obvious that the new known cache is going to be attacked sooner than the cache they are currently defending.

Biggest challenge is to get blufor attack and opfor stay at caches to defend.. too often opfor attacks instead of defends and way way too often blufor cowards does everything else but that what they are supposed to do which is attacking the cache. And when blufor doesnt attack, opfor cant be arsed to defend either which turns the insurgency upside down.

Relevant; Suiciding as an insurgent. Will doing so give intel points to the enemy, or not? If not I'm going to start ordering my fellow taliban heroes to suicide as soon as a cache turns blue and respawn on it.

Realistic? No, but who cares?

[R-DEV]Deer wrote:Biggest challenge is to get blufor attack and opfor stay at caches to defend.. too often opfor attacks instead of defends and way way too often blufor cowards does everything else but that what they are supposed to do which is attacking the cache. And when blufor doesnt attack, opfor cant be arsed to defend either which turns the insurgency upside down.

That is the major flaw with Insurgency in a nutshell. Any other problems stem from that core issue in my view.

Zpoilt wrote:Relevant; Suiciding as an insurgent. Will doing so give intel points to the enemy, or not? If not I'm going to start ordering my fellow taliban heroes to suicide as soon as a cache turns blue and respawn on it.

Realistic? No, but who cares?

Yes, it gives them intel. If a civilian suicides it also gives the full 10 points of intel. Same as a civi in a bombcar, as far as I know..

@Deer: point taken however this does little to solve the problem.

to gain intel you must kill insurgents. due to that when a "known" comes up it is usually while the Blufor are already engaged at one of the unknowns. Defending the one being attacked is top priority when both caches are unknown. this leaves the other cache inevitably undefended when it becomes known. The dilemma for the INS team is now this. in those 3 minutes before Blufor see it, should we split guys over or should we maintain our force on the cache being attacked? If we siphon off guys to defend the known, that lowers the number of defenders at the one already under attack risking it being over run. if we do not, we risk being locked down and unable to reach the known when it comes under attack.

sending just a few guys over will do little to help. one squad cannot hold off against the entire blufor team while the rest is locked down on the other end of the map, while sending over more than a squad and a half or so would greatly weaken the defenses of the cache already at risk.

the biggest problem is also the lack of dieing once the cache becomes known. in 3 minutes you might get 15 deaths not all of which will choose to spawn at the known. once the known is visible to blufor they will stop killing knowing that the INS team would be stuck.

i do not mind the lack of transportation, that is fine with me. it is the known/unknown system which has made this a problem.

3 minutes is also not a lot of time. think of those 15 people perhaps 1 squad or two will spawn over. for those 6-12 people who go it depends when in those 3 minutes they die. 10 seconds in? 2:30 in? sure if you get two or 3 that die in the first 10 seconds of that count. now it's another 30 seconds to spawn, another minute or so for them to discuss with the squad, perhaps if lucky one of those 2 might be an SL. this leaves 2 men to create a defensive line in 1 minute 20 seconds. during which time perhaps another 2 or 3 might spawn in with them and help.

The time for the BLUFOR team to get the intel on a known cache is 5 minutes later than for the insurgents, not 3. Unless the manual has not been updated and a change was made in 0.97 I'm not aware of. [Reference: First cache to get known after round start is at/around 3:55:~ish = 5 minutes as well.]

Bringerof_D wrote:@Deer: point taken however this does little to solve the problem.

to gain intel you must kill insurgents. due to that when a "known" comes up it is usually while the Blufor are already engaged at one of the unknowns. Defending the one being attacked is top priority when both caches are unknown. this leaves the other cache inevitably undefended when it becomes known. The dilemma for the INS team is now this. in those 3 minutes before Blufor see it, should we split guys over or should we maintain our force on the cache being attacked? If we siphon off guys to defend the known, that lowers the number of defenders at the one already under attack risking it being over run. if we do not, we risk being locked down and unable to reach the known when it comes under attack.

Okay, so for the sake of argument let's assume we're dealing with two teams of equal skill and equal levels of teamwork. When have you ever had issues defending a known cache as insurgent/taliban/HAMAS(/militia) with about 10/15 people? Very few times, I dare say. Take a look the next time you're playing, because that's usually the amount of people that are on a cache at a given moment.

Quite a few people dwell around the map constantly, rather than defending. Preparing ambushes, setting up FOBs, mortars, using bombcars, being annoying as civilians, being l33t snip0rs etc.

Also, it is very rare that you will have the majority (say more than 80%) of a BLUFOR team attacking a cache at the same time. That requires massive organisation that I don't often see. That is why you can do with just 10/15 people, if you have at least a slight defensible position.

Bringerof_D wrote: sending just a few guys over will do little to help. one squad cannot hold off against the entire blufor team while the rest is locked down on the other end of the map, while sending over more than a squad and a half or so would greatly weaken the defenses of the cache already at risk.

See what I wrote above. You will never have to fight off the -entire- BLUFOR team at once. Some are pilots, some are logistics, some are being l33t snip0rs, some are armour crewmen or ninja squads looking for unknowns. And needless to say, with a proper squad on a defensible position, you can outlast assault pretty well, even when outnumbered. Yeah, if you send out a motley crew to defend that cache, that isn't on mumble and consists of 15 year old COD kiddies that just want to rack up kills, you're going to lose that cache.

As for 'greatly weakening' the other caches defences is somewhat of an overstatement. In most cases when a second cache gets known, BLUFOR will have one squad at least divert to the new known to try and take it out while there is less resistance present. So naturally, the assault on the first known gets lessened as well.

Bringerof_D wrote: the biggest problem is also the lack of dieing once the cache becomes known. in 3 minutes you might get 15 deaths not all of which will choose to spawn at the known. once the known is visible to blufor they will stop killing knowing that the INS team would be stuck.

i do not mind the lack of transportation, that is fine with me. it is the known/unknown system which has made this a problem.

3 minutes is also not a lot of time. think of those 15 people perhaps 1 squad or two will spawn over. for those 6-12 people who go it depends when in those 3 minutes they die. 10 seconds in? 2:30 in? sure if you get two or 3 that die in the first 10 seconds of that count. now it's another 30 seconds to spawn, another minute or so for them to discuss with the squad, perhaps if lucky one of those 2 might be an SL. this leaves 2 men to create a defensive line in 1 minute 20 seconds. during which time perhaps another 2 or 3 might spawn in with them and help.

Take initiative. If you're squadleading tell your people you're moving out. Have one of them acquire a vehicle and make haste to the new known. If you're not squadleading, suggest it to your leader. If he's at least capable of thinking a bit strategically, he might see the benefits if no one else goes to defend. You don't need to die to relocate, you know.

As a general rule of mine (and the *NwA* servers): Don't give away the location of unknown caches. However this does not mean you can't be prepared by setting up at least one hideout in the vicinity so you have a place to spawn once the known cache gets unspawnable. This is in my eyes the main reason second caches get taken out so easily. They have no way of being reinforced because no one puts up a hideout any more.

@nixy: although i do follow most of your advice when i play, there is still the issue of overwhelming fire power. this problem is most evident in Al basrah. where blufor often sit back out in the open and just bombard the cache locations.

i have played many rounds of insurgency as insurgents. i pay plenty of attention to where everyone is. when i say "defending the cache" i do not mean immediately on the cache. i include of course the ones setting up IEDs and ambushes on main routes to said cache. and that there is the main problem. you only have 3 minutes to plan where to place your ambush, get there, and get set up. The switch also means defensive lines are thrown off when one becomes known. even in defense of the unknown cache the previous set positions might no longer be valid due to the troop flow. Where one cache is positioned greatly effects the route one will use to approach the other.

a smart team should have a hideout, and maybe a few inf setting mines, building spg, or something at the unknown while the known is being assaulted, typically.

A completely undefended unknown is not a good strategy.

A BLUFOR rush of the second known is not a very common strategy, nor a successful one.

Both should be defended.