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Changes will be made to this post as modification is required. please review the OP from time to time to review the updates.

In response to several recent threads i've come up with an idea which could deal with both problems.

the first problem is the fact that the first rush to build FOBs sometimes leave vehicles to be left around and destroyed by a fast opposing team leaving the entire team stuck without FOBs for a long period of time allowing enemy to over run everything.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr-bf2-suggestions/105278-logic-truck-rtb-respawn-option.html

the second problem is with Mortars immediately rendering FOBs useless by destroying it so easily.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr-bf2-suggestions/104152-modify-mortar-firebase-damage-system.html

new FOB parameters

- Must be built within 50m of a crate or 30 meters of any armored vehicle with both gunner and driver positions manned
- an FOB does not allow spawn unless there is a single crate within 30m or an armored vehicle within 50m of the FOB
- FOB will now remain undamaged by mortars unless directly hit
- FOB will disable spawn for 20 seconds after a mortar lands within 50 meters of it
- FOB initial warm up remains the same
- 60 second warm up when crates are replaced or
- 60 second warm up on arrival of an armored vehicles
- regular warm up time after construction remains the same.

Crates

i'm not entirely sure how fragile crates are at the moment but for this suggestion to work, it will require that crates are easily destructible by mortars and other high explosives.

This will boast the importance of a logistics chain where if crates run out of ammo and self destruct will require new crates in order to keep the FOB in operation. It will also allow FOBs to hold out better against mortars while still being adversely affected by them. If no crates are around and the FOB is run temporarily by an armored vehicle, mortars and other strikes can cause the vehicle to bug out and leave the FOB unspawnable until they return, again effectively disabling the FOB.

This will also solve halve the problem of early FOBs being over run and the Logi trucks lost in the process. FOBs can be built at the start of the round with armored support and crates dropped later when the fighting line has advanced farther away from the FOB. This means a team can take their time in dropping off crates and returning trucks to the main. the main reason trucks are not returned after building early FOBs is that advancing squads do not want to wait behind and lose their forward momentum or risk being short one gun if the FOB comes under contact. with this system they do not need to lose that momentum until it is safe to do so.

edit: if anyone is going to argue realism. ALL vehicles (at least within the CF) carry a camo net and enough sand bags to create some minor defenses for dismounted crew. this means slit trenches etc. judging from the FOB model there should be more than enough sand bags to build the FOB. the presence of the APC or tank can also represent an ACV or other form of mobile command post.

There's alot I like about this. Things I can deffinately get behind are the FOB being unaffected by anything but a direct hit by a mortar, and crates being made much more fragile.

an FOB does not allow spawn unless there is a single crate within 100m or an armored vehicle within 75m of the FOB

This will boast the importance of a logistics chain where if crates run out of ammo and self destruct will require new crates in order to keep the FOB in operation

i overall like suggestion and quoted the best parts.
im still against the fob vs fob wars and ninja needed to seek the radio and knife it.
those crates should lose ammo every time when soldier spawns from the fob.
enough soldiers spawned from fob,crates dissapears,fob runs out from reinforcements and enemy team can come to the fob and wipe out the rest.
but with dedicated supplysquad and proper communication you really cant run out of supply.

so with these,you could win firefight against fob in longrange.no need to go ninja.
but overall good suggestion.

So you have the current system, but a 3-man squad comprised of SL+2 Crewmen now build a firebase wherever they want, and have to drive within 100m to let people spawn on it.

• What is stopping a 3 man APC/FOB crew going across the map building random firebases?
• You've doubled the range of maximum crate-FOB distance. Why should a well defended firebase be made totally unspawnable due to the crate being destroyed, even if its WELL away from the actual build point?
• Since they can destroy and build these firebases at pure whim, how is this really any different to having people spawn on the APC itself, since they just have to be next to the firebase?

I disagree. Giving light tanks the ability to deploy a firebase whilst not requiring any prerequisite materials such as crate or ammo box adds to its already overdone list of abilities.

maarit wrote:i overall like suggestion and quoted the best parts.
im still against the fob vs fob wars and ninja needed to seek the radio and knife it.
those crates should lose ammo every time when soldier spawns from the fob.
enough soldiers spawned from fob,crates dissapears,fob runs out from reinforcements and enemy team can come to the fob and wipe out the rest.
but with dedicated supplysquad and proper communication you really cant run out of supply.

so with these,you could win firefight against fob in longrange.no need to go ninja.
but overall good suggestion.

Well, making a FOB unaffected by mortars unless it's directly hit means to take one out fully you'll have more need for someone to run in and knife it. I suppose the advantage is you are eliminating the need to reshovel to get a FOB back up after a mortar attack, but you still need to get crates back there, which will probably take longer (though I suppose a friendly IFV could sit on station until the logi gets there).

Another issue that springs to mind is how often will the APC be able to deploy a FOB (I assume it'll still need shoveling), because the current system the logi truck can make at most two basic FOBs before having to RTB to get more supplys. Would there be a limiting factor here, or will we see an MECH INF squad deploying 3-4 FOBs in a relatively small area, and falling back to them as they loose ground? If it's the second then there is the issue of the total ammount of FOBs available to the team falling in enemy territory without being destroyed or supplied, making them unspawnable.

Why not a commander deployable fob which can only be deployed from the command post. Set them on a timer similar to area attacks, so commanders don't build them repeatedly whenever a player set FOB is destroyed. Also only start the deploy timer once the first flag is capped on certain AAS maps so as not to remove the need to attack the first flag (such as on Muttrah).

I agree that the FOB needs to be directly hit by the mortar to do damage.. it is a pain to rebuild the fobs when a random mortar hits near and causes them to "bleed out."

dtacs wrote: [*]You've doubled the range of maximum crate-FOB distance. Why should a well defended

ah, thanks for pointing that out, i messed that up. the range to crates should be the same as it is now. i'll edit it in the op. for some reason i had the impression it was 100m currently.

the fact that the APC must stay near the FOB should make that an impractical tactic. after all the APC squad memebers willw ant to move out and engage. without crates, this means the FOB is useless for spawning purposes. This also means that FOB cannot be a ninja FOB for the APC squad to respawn dead members near them, since they'll need to go back. APCs are noisy thus exposing the FOB's position easily.

because a lack of crates signifies a lack of supplies, any garrison can only accommodate so many troops. based on living quarters, and supplies. you will not send more men to a position where there are no supplies for them. That is unless you send the supplies WITH them, which is why you need to bring in the new crates. might as well bring a squad too.

@spiked_Rye: why ninja it? with the crates destroyed the FOB has been disabled and cannot spawn troops. The fob is now not only useless, it is also a burden to a degree. they now need to risk a truck or chopper to resupply the FOB before it can be of any use. previously you could still spawn on the FOB with or without crates. now there's nothing. now a squad can take their time walking in and manually destroying it rather than needing a ninja to sneak in. No infantry spawning = no risk of getting spotted by defenders = no need to send in small numbers of guys.

rather, now that all enemies are external to the FOB you are assaulting you should want to send in the entire squad to support the man knifing the FOB from troops attempting to move in and reclaim the FOB.

though that is hypothetical, we'd need to let this run for a while and see how players play with it. Strategically speaking it should no longer be advantageous to send a ninja.

the fact that the APC must stay near the FOB should make that an impractical tactic. after all the APC squad memebers willw ant to move out and engage. without crates, this means the FOB is useless for spawning purposes. This also means that FOB cannot be a ninja FOB for the APC squad to respawn dead members near them, since they'll need to go back. APCs are noisy thus exposing the FOB's position easily.

You miss the point that an APC can quickly swing by and allow people to spawn. Additionally if you are under the impression that they want to "move out and engage", what is the original purpose of having the APC there to spawn players in? Why should an APC have to forsake its ability in order to have others spawn? By forcing APC crews to be half of the responsibility for active fire-bases, you remove their ability to go out and support infantry movements or more importantly; act as a fire support platform.

because a lack of crates signifies a lack of supplies, any garrison can only accommodate so many troops. based on living quarters, and supplies. you will not send more men to a position where there are no supplies for them. That is unless you send the supplies WITH them, which is why you need to bring in the new crates. might as well bring a squad too.

PR doesn't, nor should ever represent full scale fighting taking into account sleeping and eating of troops. It simulates a fight lasting mere hours, not days or weeks. This isn't siege warfare, its small-scale tactical combined arms comprised of small operational points, not full scale bases; if you really want to split hairs on that topic then repair stations fulfill that need.

I fail to see how you think that PR represented such a broad depth of warfare in the first place. Its my opinion that you back to the drawing board, and take into account the fundamental concept that this makes APC's the most imperative asset for conventional forces.

But either way your suggestion won't be instituted. There have been many superior alternative spawning suggestions made by the brightest critical-thinkers in the community and nothing changes.

Bringerof_D wrote: @spiked_Rye: why ninja it? with the crates destroyed the FOB has been disabled and cannot spawn troops. The fob is now not only useless, it is also a burden to a degree. they now need to risk a truck or chopper to resupply the FOB before it can be of any use.

Because a savvy (and unsporting) CO could stack up a bunch of guys in limbo, order an APC to make a mad dash to a FOB deep in an enemy controlled area, and insta-spawn in the dirty dozen. These chaps then suddenly have free access to knife your FOBs, meaning when you re supply you still have to rebuild and have the warm up time before you can spawn at the front.

spiked_rye wrote:Because a savvy (and unsporting) CO could stack up a bunch of guys in limbo, order an APC to make a mad dash to a FOB deep in an enemy controlled area, and insta-spawn in the dirty dozen. These chaps then suddenly have free access to knife your FOBs, meaning when you re supply you still have to rebuild and have the warm up time before you can spawn at the front.

this is a good point, i'll make changes to my post as i think about this.

@Dtacs: first off must you be so hostile on every thread you disagree with? i understand there are flaws in this suggestion. so please, point out flaws and leave speculation on the outcome to minimal. If you've seen better ideas, i fail to see how it is relevant if they have not been implemented, as there were obviously flaws amongst them. I have seen plenty good ones as well but simply wont work for many reasons. in theory this may be inferior but might actually work. this has been the case for many compromises in PR such as deviation.

back on track, if we're not pretending there are more than 32 men, then why do we have fobs and rally points at all? why do we have respawning. I mentioned food and shelter only as an example. the same point still stands even if we're talking strictly ammunition and hardware. it should be quite obvious that the crates signify more than just crates. such as the FOB represents more than just some sand bags and a camo net. you simply do not send more men to a position without adequate supplies for their job. With the crates means supplies are plentiful and more men are arriving when they spawn. No crate means more men are being sent in with more supplies (eg. men drive in with the truck and drop a crate.) the APC part needs further modifying but i dont see how this specifically doesn't work.

i've now added a warm up when a new crate is placed or an armored vehicle comes in. This should force the APC to sit on the FOB for 2 minutes and allow enemies to move in and neutralize or otherwise scare it off. as well as both driver and gunner positions must be manned.

What is the incentive for an APC to even bother waiting there? From a crewman perspective who would risk such a valuable asset so a squad can potentially spawn in? In a pub situation, they become a target when stationary, even more so as they could possibly be waiting for this fire-base to become spawnable. The enemy would identify that, and endeavor to kill the APC.

+ I'm not being hostile, I apologize if that is the wind you're getting. I'm critical because without criticism - constructive or otherwise - ideas aren't ratified. With the criticism you've got from rye and I you've already changed a multitude of points. Take my feedback with a grain of salt if you wish.

Bringerof_D wrote:i've now added a warm up when a new crate is placed or an armored vehicle comes in. This should force the APC to sit on the FOB for 2 minutes and allow enemies to move in and neutralize or otherwise scare it off. as well as both driver and gunner positions must be manned.

That's deffinately an improvement, but it could still lead to resentment from the APC drivers. They now have to choose between being a team player by sitting on a FOB (but all the while risk a high value asset), or saving thier high value asset and racking up kills (but not being a team player by not allowing a FOB to be active).

The problem is you now have a situation where the APC has to sit still on a place where they know the enemy have targeted. The IFV is an agressive asset, it's meant to move troops forward, and assault with them. They're still pretty weak, thier best defence is the fact that they move quickly. Without infantry protection at a FOB they're warming up they'll struggle to last two minutes, and if they have infantry protection, why are they sat at a FOB and not pushing forward?

Okay, the APC would only have to wait until supplies arrived, but then the noise gives away the loaction of the FOB, meaning you loose the element of supprise. If it's an over run FOB then the crates already have been destroyed, what's to stop the other side waiting and targeting the FOB when the new crates are there, taking out the FOB and Logi truck in one?

It's not a bad idea, just alot of issues to be considered I think. (also though, it doesn't quite solve the problem in the thread you first posted it in [https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... tion.html] of the logi truck being abandoned at a FOB)

EDIT: +1 on the not being hostile! dtacs

spiked_rye wrote:That's deffinately an improvement, but it could still lead to resentment from the APC drivers. They now have to choose between being a team player by sitting on a FOB (but all the while risk a high value asset), or saving thier high value asset and racking up kills (but not being a team player by not allowing a FOB to be active).

this is the part where i'm hoping will stress logistics. and of course limit the crews ability to run behind enemy lines and setup an FOB.

The FOB set up using the APCs and Tanks should be in well covered and easily defended positions, or otherwise a safe distance from the enemy force, to avoid losing the asset. This also means that that APC or Tank will be out of the fight. granted that the APC or tank can still move around and take cover using obstacles within 30 meters of the FOB this still highly limits their ability to fight and defend themselves. With this in mind it would be best to get an actual crate onto the FOB ASAP.

Essentially the only time this SHOULD really make a difference is when setting up advanced FOBs where you are near enemy and require heavy protection to be present before the Chopper or Logi truck arrives. with these parameters there should be more security in place for the trucks as they arrive then currently in game. Often right now trucks are rushed to a position to build an FOB, said FOBs are quickly engaged during construction, the trucks lost and the FOBs destroyed. this should prevent those early losses by having early protection available at the FOB until it is safe for crates to arrive. hopefully this will stress teamwork.

@Dtacs: I'm sure you didnt intend for it to sound that way but though you pointed out several valid points, your previous post essentially said at the end "shut up now, you're embarrassing yourself."

@Mortars hurting fobs. It is fine as it is. If the fob is not dying while mortars land on it and ppl are spawning and getting killed instantly it is _terrible_ gameplay.

an FOB does not allow spawn unless there is a single crate within 100m or an armored vehicle within 75m of the FOB

Why? seems completely arbitrary.

Hell you still get a lot of rounds even today where teams are incapable of building decent fobs, let alone requiring having crates around (would completely over-work the already limited supply chain) and more prerequisites.

Bringerof_D wrote:The FOB set up using the APCs and Tanks should be in well covered and easily defended positions, or otherwise a safe distance from the enemy force, to avoid losing the asset. This also means that that APC or Tank will be out of the fight. granted that the APC or tank can still move around and take cover using obstacles within 30 meters of the FOB this still highly limits their ability to fight and defend themselves. With this in mind it would be best to get an actual crate onto the FOB ASAP.

Well, you are right there. However, with the limited supply of logi trucks, you could be in for a long wait, and then the crates could well go down in the next mortar strike or armoured attack, meaning you have a perpetually dug in APC.

Bringerof_D wrote:Essentially the only time this SHOULD really make a difference is when setting up advanced FOBs where you are near enemy and require heavy protection to be present before the Chopper or Logi truck arrives. with these parameters there should be more security in place for the trucks as they arrive then currently in game. Often right now trucks are rushed to a position to build an FOB, said FOBs are quickly engaged during construction, the trucks lost and the FOBs destroyed. this should prevent those early losses by having early protection available at the FOB until it is safe for crates to arrive. hopefully this will stress teamwork.

Well, yes, it SHOULD stress team work, but I think it'll also reward accurate mortar teams, and tie down APCs meaning the infantry will have to walk alot further and more often. An APC is a transport for infantry, and should be moving troops up to the front, not sat at a FOB waiting to be HAT-ed. Whilst I like long walks in the country, there is nothing more frustrating than having to walk for ten minutes, then getting taken out instantly by an APC (who could be sat on a FOB waiting for crates ).

Tim270 wrote:@Mortars hurting fobs. It is fine as it is. If the fob is not dying while mortars land on it and ppl are spawning and getting killed instantly it is _terrible_ gameplay.

Well firstly, I agree spawning right into the middle of a mortar strike is annoying, but I then generally don't spawn at that FOB again until I think it's safe.

An over-run mechanic for after a mortar strike as a way of preventing spawning into a barrage, but I think that could lead to a problem where once a teams FOBs have been identified the opposing mortar team have a firing solution on all of them and drop one round every time the FOB is about to go active. This is bad because you get FOBs which are unspawnable, so you can't retrieve a logi that has been left there without a long walk.

The real problem I have with FOBs the way they are is the bleeding out after a mortar lands near it. FOBs and other deployables are a core part of PR, but I don't want to spend a whole heap of time just shoveling, (I'd play minecraft for that ). Making them strong against mortars means they would need a forward controler to walk the rounds to target for a direct hit, or for a squad to move in an clear the FOB.

Tim270 wrote:Hell you still get a lot of rounds even today where teams are incapable of building decent fobs, let alone requiring having crates around (would completely over-work the already limited supply chain) and more prerequisites.

I agree, the point of the thread this came from https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ption.html was that Logi trucks are abandoned at the front because most people want to be up front fighting and not driving back and forth.

Making crates weaker and a requisite for spawning will mean that a dedicated 2 man logi squad will be needed at all times, which on a 64 server is at least 6% of a team. Add on the 4 man mortar crew, plus a CO then the total reduction to front line forces is 22%. Then you have your APCs which are sat running FOBs because they keep having thier crates taken out, so in the end the infantry have to walk to the flags (which is a long way on the 4km maps), and cap them on thier own.

Apologies for length, and possible incoherance, I'm not caffinated yet.

spiked_rye wrote: Well, yes, it SHOULD stress team work, but I think it'll also reward accurate mortar teams, and tie down APCs meaning the infantry will have to walk alot further and more often. An APC is a transport for infantry, and should be moving troops up to the front, not sat at a FOB waiting to be HAT-ed. Whilst I like long walks in the country, there is nothing more frustrating than having to walk for ten minutes, then getting taken out instantly by an APC (who could be sat on a FOB waiting for crates ).

Well now that's the thing. now there is transport around when you spawn. Wait for the rest of your squad to arrive then taxi in together. the APC does not have to stay there, but now they have an incentive to return to the FOB, much like IRL where vehicles move into a holding area, instead of wandering off to hunt enemies on their own.

however that said this is a best case scenario, i can see some major problems with this when dealing with say a public server.

as for spawning during a mortar strike. mortars already destroy crates if i recall. now if we link that to spawning that should make mortars A effective without being over powered in destroying emplacements. We could also add a a disable effect to mortars landing within x meters of the FOB to stop people from spawning during incoming fire. a short time such as 20 seconds should be enough to prevent spawn during a fire mission but should allow them to spawn early enough to avoid coordinated mortar squads from cycling through all the known FOBs and keeping them out of commision.

as for losing logi trucks i felt that this would stress the importance of having them immediately returned and rearmed at the main so as to prevent needing APCs and tanks to sit around. the more diligent the team is at keeping FOB's supplied, the less they'll rely on armor to keep FOBs spawnable. My intention for this suggestion was not to allow armor to undertake this job so much as to require something to allow spawn. in other words this was meant to burden a team if they lose their trucks and continually require armor to retreat and sit around. now they should have more incentive to return the trucks and give them proper protection on road moves.

edit: further modifications have been made to OP. Mortars within 50m of FOBs will disable spawn for 20 seconds. Warm up time from the arrival of armor has been reduced to 60 seconds. this should allow armor to move more freely and be called back if needed instead of needing to hang around.

Bringer, I like what you are trying to do, and I like the thought that you have put into the idea. Unfortunately, I think that what will end up happening is going to be the worst case scenario on a regular basis. A player will drive a logi truck to a FOB site, park it while they build a fob, mortars will fall, destroy the logi, and the armor will have to spend the rest of the time babysitting the FOB.

It is already difficult enough to get APC crews to do what needs to be done to support their team in a public match, and convincing them that they need to be the mobile supply point for a FOB is going to be a losing proposition on a regular basis. The response is going to be, "Logi will respawn in a couple of minutes. It's only two tickets. Wait or spawn somewhere else."

A more effective solution I think, would be to increase the ticket value of both FOB's and logistics trucks. By making them more valuable to the team in a tangible manner, all players will be able to grasp the value, even those less tactically-minded. In my opinion, vehicular assets across the board need a ticket value increase, but that is a separate matter. The reason that logi trucks, trans trucks, hummvee's, etc., are abandoned on a regular basis are because they are not seen as valuable beyond being disposable transportation.

Stoickk wrote:Bringer, I like what you are trying to do, and I like the thought that you have put into the idea. Unfortunately, I think that what will end up happening is going to be the worst case scenario on a regular basis. A player will drive a logi truck to a FOB site, park it while they build a fob, mortars will fall, destroy the logi, and the armor will have to spend the rest of the time babysitting the FOB.

It is already difficult enough to get APC crews to do what needs to be done to support their team in a public match, and convincing them that they need to be the mobile supply point for a FOB is going to be a losing proposition on a regular basis. The response is going to be, "Logi will respawn in a couple of minutes. It's only two tickets. Wait or spawn somewhere else."

A more effective solution I think, would be to increase the ticket value of both FOB's and logistics trucks. By making them more valuable to the team in a tangible manner, all players will be able to grasp the value, even those less tactically-minded. In my opinion, vehicular assets across the board need a ticket value increase, but that is a separate matter. The reason that logi trucks, trans trucks, hummvee's, etc., are abandoned on a regular basis are because they are not seen as valuable beyond being disposable transportation.

if crates are stowed in a safe place then this shouldnt become an issue too often i'd hope. this should hopefully curb FOBs being placed in completely open hill tops with the crates right next to them. Usually if i'm stuck without any safe natural areas to tuck the crates i build a fox hole and drop subsequent crates into them.

The creation of outposts never required an armored vehicle IRL. Why should we start now?
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In regards to FOBs being destroyed by mortars:
I don't see a problem with that. I would perhaps make foxholes a little bit more resistant or change them to mini sandbag bunkers (and let them provide a little extra protection for infantry against mortars strikes), but everything else should be reasonably destroyable. Supply crates might even be a bit explosive considering their average ammo content, but that is another topic.
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As far as abandoned vehicles go, a logistics squad (I've seen commanders do this), can easily account for building FOBs and collecting vehicles.

-edit-

Thank you Stoickk for clarifying.

Hitman, FOB is what we use in place of firebase even though it is a misnomer.

the only FOB's in this game are the main bases