Project Reality Forums

Any one notice unless the Bluefor has to be total incompetent to lose, and even when they are total incompetent they will win.

I use to play insurgent and we had a chance if we stayed with the known, don't spawn on the unknown, and build hideouts. Now no matter what you do the Bluefor win 400+ tickets left. I don't know if its because every one now knows every location of caches on maps and just spend time looking for unmanned unknowns. Or the random cache spawning system where cache spawns in 1 house in the middle of the desert no real way of setting up hideouts that are hidden or putting up any defense from Armor. Or the ticket number changed to counter wounded ticket loss.

I think random spawning caches needs to be changed, or change the cache locations to more realistic locations. Also I think distance to over run hideouts should be changed, to many times hideouts get over run from Bluefor that have no idea where it is, or even that its there. I think making the distance 10m to over run then they would have to find all hideouts around cache before they get the cache. Some mite say this is unfair then you could make the distance between hideouts further then 200m to counter it.

I'm just trying to see other peoples feelings on insurgency is, Insurgency was my favorite mode and was a great break from the Normal AAS Project Reality has turned into, but now I'm starting to dislike the game mode because it is over to fast, or insurgents have no chance.

I do remember back when Bluefor had no chance of winning and many people had problems with that, but it felt more as if back then Bluefor (with all their force multipliers) had to play like a real team to win, now it feels that Insurgents (with small arms, RPGS, and rocks) have to play as a perfect team just to have a chance to win. Seems like insurgency is backwards then the way it should be, your asking the under equipped faction to have perfect teamwork to have a chance to win, and the superior equipped faction can win with a thumb up their but by 400 tickets. The old Insurgency Insurgents won by unorthodox warfare like their real world counter parts, and Bluefor won by playing smart, communication, conserving assets and tickets. They don't do that now because they don't have to.

Quite the opposite, an organized Opfor team is far superior to an equally well-organized Blufor team. It's just that the level of the playerbase has sunk quite badly recently and people tend to go even more herp derp when on INS side than earlier.

There are some major flaws in the gamemode, I agree with you but that is not game deciding but rather for the sake of fun. The DEV time hasn't shown any major interest to change the situation so far.

In every (well, almost) organized event and tournament I took part in, which involved Insurgency, ended up with Opfor's victory.

Alternatively, change server.

Ill give it to you certain maps Insurgents have a the advantage. But lets look at 1 map here Kokan, you cant tell me if lets say TG had a event where you had dedicated team work on both sides that Insurgents could win with the way Insurgency is Today, not in the past. With has many tickets as they get now, every player knowing every cache location, it is now the norm not to spawn on unknowns, not to mention APC, 2 Kiowas, Area Attack. Bluefor wins by 200 every time. Don't get me started on operation marlin.

TG is not what it used to be. As said, it takes good players to win and surely Blufor's life has become easier with all the fancy toys they get but a coordinate INS team will literally rape the shit out of the Blufor team. I can't remember when it was but during a match our team won Karbala by 4 Caches (just an example as that counts as one of the worst balanced maps). I can't really comment because I haven't played lately on a regular 64 server but this is what I've got from all my experiences and since no new releases were made, I put it down to the players, not the game.

talkinBEERmug wrote:Ill give it to you certain maps Insurgents have a the advantage. But lets look at 1 map here Kokan, you cant tell me if lets say TG had a event where you had dedicated team work on both sides that Insurgents could win with the way Insurgency is Today, not in the past. With has many tickets as they get now, every player knowing every cache location, it is now the norm not to spawn on unknowns, not to mention APC, 2 Kiowas, Area Attack. Bluefor wins by 200 every time. Don't get me started on operation marlin.

That is certainly true and on top of that, most now know the tricks only very few knew before. This gamemode simply needs an overhaul.

Brainlaag wrote:Quite the opposite, an organized Opfor team is far superior to an equally well-organized Blufor team.

Fact. Pure and simple.

The problem is the player base. Most people when they end up being insurgents act like idiots. They just think that their mandate is to just try and run around desperately trying to chase down BLUFOR and blow stuff up.

The issue of insurgency primarily is that it requires a degree of focus based on the fact that they're persistently in a defensive state. The fact is that if you don't defend your cache you lose it. People don't defend it properly, they leave gaping holes, they stream from them with RPGs and lead the BLUFOR to it.

The problem is that INS is unique. The INS are the only defenders. So if they can't defend they lose. In any AAS game the team that can't defend a flag loses it. How many times do you see a team get rolled cause they aren't defending their flags and are 'tactically' out flanking the enemy about a billion miles from any active flag. Its the exact same situation, the only difference is that AAS affords both sides the chance to screw up their defense.

Most people don't seem to have the attention span to defend a cache. Most people chase their action and blame the game mode for failing to do their job. Are there issues in INS? Damn straight. But go play Korengal or Lashkar. See how hard it is to take a cache hidden in a cave if you actually have 3 or 4 squads of insurgents holed up in that, fighting hit and run in the hills around the entrance and falling back to concentrate on their active cache.

Don't blame the game mode for the failures of the community. Fact is that INS is possibly poorly balanced against BLUFOR if anything when it comes to organized play. Disciplined teams are rewarded greatly in insurgency. If you want the Devs to rebalance a gamemode because of the terrible style of most players then you basically gut the whole mod.

I have played with good players multiple squads communicating defending known caches only have to have bluefor find 4 out of 7 unknowns, that's not player base that's flaws. So is a cache position that is in a house alone in a open field that's such a bad spot for a cache and yet you will see it spawn every time. Fact is bluefor gets to many tickets and you can see that by how they are not conserving assets or deaths as in other versions of insurgency. Last version of Insurgency on Kokan if bluefor drove all the Humvees and trucks and out and go them killed Insurgent would dominate, that's how it should be if bluefor is careless with assets and lives they should lose, or at least be a close game not 400+ win.

As for the player base you always have people running around crazy, and searching for bluefor to blow up on insurgent, in old versions this was a plus because bluefor could not stay in one spot to long and had to watch their back. That was part of the fun of the old versions it was not normal PR it was a chance to use unorthodox combat.

Any one who does not see a problem with Insurgent side spends to much time on Bluefor.

The one change I feel was the biggest mistake was increasing the cache reward to 25 tickets.

Here's a post of mine from when it was first introduced, showing how we get 57 tickets to waste per cache, compared to the 34 it used to be.

badmojo420 wrote:0.8 = 34 tickets per cache
0.9 = 57 tickets per cache

In 0.87 we had 10 caches giving the coalition 10 tickets per cache destroyed.
In 0.9 we have 7 caches giving the coalition 25 tickets per cache destroyed.

In 0.8... 250 (starting tickets) + 10 * 9(9 since the last cache doesn't give any usable tickets) = 340 tickets

Divide that by the number of caches (10) and we get 34 tickets per cache.

In 0.9... 250 + 25 * 6 = 400 tickets

Divided by 7 and we get 57 tickets per cache.

Personally, I think 57 tickets is too many tickets for each cache.

Maybe DEV can consider about increasing the number of caches, and cancal the tickets reward.


BTW, Insurgents do experiencing some hard time in certain maps.

talkinBEERmug wrote:I have played with good players multiple squads communicating defending known caches only have to have bluefor find 4 out of 7 unknowns, that's not player base that's flaws.

Then have some discipline and sit your squad in an unknown and tell them they cannot leave the building until it becomes known. Sometimes winning means staring at a door for 2 hours waiting for 5 seconds of intense combat. People always go on about realism in this game but fact is THAT is about as close to realism as you're gonna get. Real warfare is always about doing nothing and having something happen suddenly that decides the fate of the rest of the conflict. The reason servers will ban people spawning on unknowns is because people are too retarded to not sit there for 2 hours.

Real organized play understands this fact. Winning can be boring, thats the nature of realism based gaming. You said you worked with coordinated players and you lost not because that failed on the known cache.

I will agree that some insurgency maps have really bad cache positioning but Kokan in and of itself is a really poor idea for an INS map since its basically automatically isolating insurgents as the compounds are like little islands with open space that is definitely the domain of BLUFOR. Go for something with some more underground areas, more sprawl, more ground cover, and you'll see its different.

To me it sounds like you play Kokan far too much. Kokan and Karbala are the two worst INS maps for REDFOR. Go to Lashkar or Korengal and tell me that proper coordination is still futile.

Fact is bluefor gets to many tickets and you can see that by how they are not conserving assets or deaths as in other versions of insurgency. Last version of Insurgency on Kokan if bluefor drove all the Humvees and trucks and out and go them killed Insurgent would dominate, that's how it should be if bluefor is careless with assets and lives they should lose, or at least be a close game not 400+ win.

Without even reading on past the bit I quoted above I suspected that you were playing Kokan like its the only INS map out there. I see I am right. Also, if you're playing on CIA you're not going to find the kind of play you want anyway. Something about 24/7 servers promotes the worst kind of teamwork. It also promotes the kind of lazy thinking that goes with playing one map over and over learning its secrets and winning by exploiting the little things you know about it.

As for the player base you always have people running around crazy, and searching for bluefor to blow up on insurgent, in old versions this was a plus because bluefor could not stay in one spot to long and had to watch their back. That was part of the fun of the old versions it was not normal PR it was a chance to use unorthodox combat.

I don't see how this is any different. BLUFOR that set up firebase castles still tend to get themselves blown up handily, especially on Kokan.

Any one who does not see a problem with Insurgent side spends to much time on Bluefor.

You still didn't really pay attention to the people who have experience playing organized PR and who can tell you without a doubt that INS definitely is not slanted in favour of BLUFOR. It just feels unfair cause if anything the required degree of organization to succeed is much higher for INS than for a standard AAS team and if you poop the bed then any half assed BLUFOR team can walk in and just say 'oh thanks for not defending this cache, I'll have that'.

First off: I played and play many rounds on the insurgent side - and I love it, as it is a brilliant idea to begin with, that offers a huge variety of tactics that can be used!

Second off: This is a more or less long post...but I am not really sorry for it

Third off: I don't want to attack people personally, I just might seem to be a bit "RAGEy" at some points. It is really late and English is not my first language...please bare with me on some points...

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There are different things that lead INS to lose a match...

The gamemode/gamemechanics

As most people agree, there are certain aspects of the gamemode that could use some changing. The ideas vary from minor to major, ingenious to really bad and possible to impossible (engine-/workload) and are covered in countless suggestion and feedback threads. As this is not a suggestion, I will only talk about the gamemode as it is right now, here and today.

The map

Everything stated below strongly depends on the map choice. I think everyone here "knows" which maps are more on the one or more on the other side. The following works as some sort of a "general behavior study and analysis".

Unknown going down:

The main problem here is that simple rules and the majority of players are not capable of any tactical decissions. For instance a cache in Karbala, in one of the areas around the city, is not really an Unknown because someone will definately check it sooner or later. What should be done is to have a SL and maybe 2 sappers to spawn there and set up a nice quiet ambush just in case some Blufor dudes check for it. AS SOON as they realize that there might be a fight coming in the next couple of minutes or if the cache is already overrun, they should instantly try to erect a hideout! Those two schnucks you just killed will come back, probably with more shiny tools and friends, just saying! But what do people do instead when they spawn on it? They run around in the open, get spotted by a rifleman and open fire with RPGs. On the other hand a cache that is INSIDE the city somewhere, probably is way better off without people spawning on it. Not to speak of the simple fact that the supply lines (from main) are way shorter, it is way harder for the enemy to penetrate the city and search happily for caches, then to roll up a humvee to any of these outside areas.

People behaving like total numbnuts

This problem is far more gamebraking than anything else. Ins, as others stated, are DEFENDERS! But once again, what do people while defending? They ATTACK, constantly. 80 % of the people don't even seem to grasp the idea of an ambush, or a hit and run. Let alone things like covering a specific angle, talking between the SMs who takes care of which area. Most of the times you see a herd of "under-equipped" sheeps that switch position everytime a contact is called somewhere. First everyone has to look though the windows west, "eh, because there is a sniper 250 m out there...", then everyone runs to the opposite side of the room, "oh yeah, there actually is an APC, duh...", etc. etc. "so?! you don'T even have an RPG!?"...

Or whenever there are enemies spotted near an unknown people tend to attack them right away. Why not check first, if they are really going for it...maybe they just pass by, make it unspawnable for a minute, but keep on going away from it. Numerous times the enemy is around the cache compound (read outside) and then people shoot at them...hmm what are they going to do? Will they just stay outside in the open and shoot back? maybe, but more likely: They will try to get inside to establish a firing position. Oc they will run all around in the compound to find the best spots to shoot back and be covered. And if they didn't find it until then, they will check the compound, since they are there anyway...

There is a really powerful tool in the insurgent armory: the civilian/collaborateur! "but, it haz no 1337 weapuns..." "No, it has not and that is good! The civilian works as a spotter, a human shield, a wonderful distraction, a ladder, and last but not least: AS A MEDIC...to heal and "revive" people. The sheer amount of guys that through them self into enemy fire in the most open areas is ruining the game. I have witnessed countless games where blufor didn't come close to the fist known ONCE...because all they had to do was to camp it a bit from way off and wait for some dudes to pop up there head OR (even better) actively try to attack them FROM THE SAME DIRECTION over and over again, wasting IPs. Cause the one single hideout (right next to the cache oc) is still up and running, people keep spawning there (to retaliate, regrab "their" special kit, etc.) instead of slowly reinforcing the other cache that is known for 3 minutes already and about to be revealed, rushed and rendered unspawnable after the first contact with let's say two enemies.

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So, what do to?

Don't fight the war the BLUFOR is fighting on you - Fight differently!

For instance...

Cover short angles with your AK47 and don't try to out-shoot the enemy marksman over 350 meters. OC sometimes it happens, you kill the dude, feel super happy about it...but in general you don't. But instead leave a gap in the defense.

Work the civilians - they are the reason Blufor isn't just dumping JDAMs and mini-nukes all over the place anyway! Advantages of them have been stated before. The most understandable should be the fact that they can prevent IP waste and even counter it a bit...

Work the sappers - if there is one thing your fellow fighters know about. It is IEDs and pipebombs. That kit is so powerful...imagine that, you can kill full squads without even looking at them, nor being in their proximity. Once again a civilian (especially the SL) works wonders as a free flow of information! It takes about 60-90 seconds to completely cover a 25-75 m radius (strongly depending on surroundings oc) around the cache with pipebombs.

Work in pairs or triplets instead of the whole 6 whenever possible and oc plausible. You are way more mobile, sneakier, have the element of surprise, can have "wrench-movement" (with the other duo/triplet) on enemy positions, etc. etc. etc.

Keep your head down whenever possible again - surprise! If the enemy looks at your position from afar and only sees two people he might get the feeling "Okay, let's move in" and then you pop up at a window in a house that looked completely clear to them and then rape their sorry asses.

Stand still and listen what is happening around you! Too often people just keep pressing "W-A-S-D" constantly, making constant noises (Kokan buildings anyone?). Do you hear steps and the other side of the wall? Inform your colleges around you about it and work together to squish them before they even know what hit them!

You have 4 hours to rape their 500 tickets I have seen exactly 1!! game of insurgeny (with 64ish players constantly, not a seeding round or sth.) that reached the 00:00:00 - Insurgents won btw. Blufor is it that has to make the push, their politician are going to "bring the troops home" - you on the other hand... you live there!

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Oc that is not the last word on the subject nor am I saying THIS is the only way to play it. Also I might have forgotten to point out certain things since, like I said earlier, it is rather late! But anyway, I guess the message is clear...in case it is not:

INSURGENTS CAN WIN with certain changes in players behavior although minor changes in the mode might help to make it more fun for BOTH sides

Kilo Out!

they cant win because you have a .01% chance to hit anything you aim at with an rpg ;D

EDIT: Damn it, PFunk! I wrote so long on this and you hammer out the words meanwhile
Some stuff could be doubled as PFunk ninja'd me!

To Pfunk:
I don't where you play your PR these days but there are not many US servers near full not playing Muttrah or a giant 4k map, when is the last time you played I cant remember when CIA was on 24/7 Kokan it has not been in the last couple of months. Also don't come at me like I don't know how to play INS or AAS for that matter, I play on any server with a good population on mumble, on any map and the only thing I dislike is servers playing 4k maps back to back to back, other then that INS is/was my favorite game mode. We all know us tickets have been upped on INS and they also get more tickets for caches as "BadMojo" pointed out above he feels they get to many tickets per cache I feel the same way. You talk about being realistic, I don't think random cache spawning is realistic, especially when they spawn in the worst tactical areas of the map. If it were realistic we would be able to pick our locations. On the topic of unknowns I don't spawn at unknowns because it is the norm now not to spawn on them, so if I did I know I would be the only squad and your right I would be waiting 2 hours watching a entrance.

I also keep hearing how many times Insurgents are winning, what servers do you play on, what time is it, is the server full, what map is it. Yes there are maps that INS have huge advantage like Korengal I guess thats what happens when you have 2 roads leaving main and no Air Trans.

I'm not saying that Bluefor should not have an advantage, i'm not saying remove gear or assets, i'm saying they need to look at the results of the changes they have made to the INS game type like they have done in the past and adjust them, or redo the game mode altogether.

And BTW if some insurgents don't attack how are we going to win, by waiting 5 hours for the game to be over, who really has 5 hours for one map. If the insurgents don't KILL Bluefor, DESTROY Bluefore Assests, DRAIN Bluefor tickets how do they win?

Also we need to see the intel points, to many times I see civis killed or arrested and really not knowing if its helping or hurting. This would be a tactical advantage to know the intel score, if its low you know to start arresting, if its high you know to spawn as a civi the fact that we still dont have text or a meter showing intel after so many updates is crazy, when its almost as important as tickets in this game mode.

My comments are coming from a player who plays and enjoys both sides of INS, or used to enjoy. I'm sorry to say Pfunk you sound like a Bluefor fanboy and you probably switch to Bluefor after map change.

Too lazy to read but as stated the player base has taken a dip. Insurgents are pretty easy to win with it's all about how they're played.

talkinBEERmug wrote: You talk about being realistic, I don't think random cache spawning is realistic, especially when they spawn in the worst tactical areas of the map. If it were realistic we would be able to pick our locations. On the topic of unknowns I don't spawn at unknowns because it is the norm now not to spawn on them, so if I did I know I would be the only squad and your right I would be waiting 2 hours watching a entrance.

Two things here. Random cache spawning isn't realistic, I never said it was, I just said that the most realistic thing you can do in PR is sit in one position and defend a high value target for as long as it takes to win. Thats what the Insurgents did in the Battle of Fallujah, fighting room to room, waiting for the Americans to come to them, making the houses into little castles and making a last stand. That was a hard fight for the Marines to win.

The other thing, you're basically justifying my argument for me. "Spawning on the unknown is not standard so I don't do it." Didn't I say that the player base were idiots and incapable of doing smart things? "If I did I'd be waiting 2 hours to watch an entrance." Oh no... I see basically I told you how to win and you say you don't do it. You tell me you know how to play INS but you seem to be acting like there is absolutely nothing you can do about unknown caches... well at least nothing that you're willing to do.

I'm not saying that Bluefor should not have an advantage, i'm not saying remove gear or assets, i'm saying they need to look at the results of the changes they have made to the INS game type like they have done in the past and adjust them, or redo the game mode altogether.

Consistent results do not necessarily mean that the game mode is broken. It just means that the tendencies and attitudes of those playing are perhaps borked. If what myself and others believe is in fat true, that its a failure of imagination on the community's part, then no changes to INS will fix it. Its the people that have to change. This doesn't preclude the need for minor balances, but overall the biggest issue with INS are the people.

And BTW if some insurgents don't attack how are we going to win, by waiting 5 hours for the game to be over, who really has 5 hours for one map. If the insurgents don't KILL Bluefor, DESTROY Bluefore Assests, DRAIN Bluefor tickets how do they win?

Ummm... you wait for them to fall into your trap and blow them sky high? Nobody is saying you don't attack them intelligently, but the fact is that there is no method to most people's Insurgent Madness. They don't attack in smart ways. Most people who play insurgent just stream to the nearest contacts wherever it is, no regard for strategy, and get themselves killed, give away free intelligence, and make everything so easy for BLUFOR.

BLUFOR are also full of idiots. They have people who love to waste assets. Take advantage of this and let them fall on your swords rather than complain that even when they screw up and waste their assets they somehow still win and apparently when you're not defending your unknowns with disciplined people. You don't have 4 hours to win a single map? What are you doing in PR? Winning a map where you must defend is about patience, waiting for the enemy to make his mistakes. You cannot attack unless the enemy is also attacking. They will make mistakes and if you're not playing intelligently yourself then you will never be able to take advantage of that.

Again, you ignore everyone saying how organized PR shows that there is nothing wrong with Insurgency. Insurgents win easily. What differentiates organized PR from pubbie PR? Its the willingness to do the things you say you don't have time for. Ask anybody who plays in clan matches or played in the PRT, the new TART, some community events, or whatever. Winning means being patient, disciplined, and willing to do boring things for your team. If you just want to gratify yourself then you're not going to win except by luck.

My comments are coming from a player who plays and enjoys both sides of INS, or used to enjoy. I'm sorry to say Pfunk you sound like a Bluefor fanboy and you probably switch to Bluefor after map change.

Based on what? Your desire to paint everything I say with one brush so that you can just wholesale ignore it since thats the easiest way to defend your point of view?

My comments are coming from someone you don't know anything about. Don't presume to judge me without any facts. You just sound desperate when you do. Argue the points and actually answer people instead of speaking in generalizations about how hard it is. You apparently play maps other than Kokan? Well your only examples are Kokan, and your freaking signature is bloody Kokan. Forgive me if I have more evidence than you do that you are a one trick pony.

When you first posted about this just as .9 was released, I think I posted repeatedly supporting your position that INsurgents and Insurgency maps were unbalanced in the .9 update.

It's gotten pretty horrible, it now requirea the insurgent team to have teamwork for the entire round, meaning even one or two numbnuts or noobs or griefers can ruin the round. The entire team has to work together the entire round, which is unrealistic on public servers.

Meanwhile, lone wolves on Bluefor can walk around incommunicado and score unknown cache kills.

Something needs to change, just to refresh the gameplay, it doesn't have to be drastic, but it needs to shake things up.

Just relocating the caches would do it, lowering the distance between hideouts, give the INS SL kit a shovel, or something like increasing ammo techies would all change up game play.

So far the worst problem are the purple caches ... there are a lot of people changing sides and giving away purple cache locations, or just giving spawn in purple caches, one guy can compromise the entire team .

the number of available caches should be random , sometimes 2 caches spawn , sometimes just 1.

i have been saying htis for years what we need is a simplification of the current game mode not more rules

To fix insurgency======================================== ======
All insurgents spawn no kit is requested

5 minute no fire at start of round

Every 10 insurgents killed = one more cache. Arrest no penalty

Civi shields delt with via armour i.e. splash damage kills on civis allowed no direct fire

civis if arrested no penalty if killed blufor penalty

2 caches at a time on insurgent map

Caches are reveled by flag cap area of 150m being occupied by opfor for 5 mins , this is consecutive so squad one stays 3 mins squad 2 finds cache after 2 mins, random drive bys contribute seconds in effect.

150m rule dependant on map size

Regular spawn rate for civis/all insurgents

Drop kit become a civi after 1 minute

Civis can swim normal movement rate

cell leader rally point same as squad leader

remove clown car/teky wind shield

================================================== ===
-pet desires ... hip fire rpg more accurate, camcorder rather than binos and sticky ied, insurgents barrier (mound)

please guys lets make it simple people changing teams isnt what kills the mod ok. we need to make people proud.

DutchMasterr wrote:they cant win because you have a .01% chance to hit anything you aim at with an rpg ;D

absolute twaddle, whenever I'm holding one of those things, I feel so bad for the pain I'm inflicting

the only time I feel impotent with an RPG is when a tank is in play

I don't know what your talking about. I like to play insurgents on most insurgency maps over bluefor, love the 47, sks and IEDs. Insurgents win quite easily unless the insurgents are just being useless. If the insurgents are split on the caches should be no way a team can get in there, But more spawns for caches would be nice.