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why doesn't the civi spawn innocent? game mechanics or engine limitation? you already have to wait 30 seconds for being killed while innocent or even worse being arrested.

the civi spawning killable means everybody shoots them and usually you aren't a martyr.

this is how it plays out: if you do wait you aren't doing your team much good because it takes so long sitting around just to get killed because the enemy doesn't care. even so it doesnt matter because you aren't a martyr fast enough. then you can get shot by a shotgun which negates all your long hard work. its just annoying waiting twice, for no apparent reason.

i thought civi was supposed to distract/spot/slow down enemy. but instead you can't help your squad most of the time because you are dead or waiting. all while the enemy is pushing your cache...

I always thought of it as you're abusing the blufors ROE by appearing to be an unarmed civilian who's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, if they see you exiting a tunnel(hideout) or coming out of the insurgent main, they have every right in the ROE to kill you on sight, because it's obvious your working with them.

badmojo420 wrote:I always thought of it as you're abusing the blufors ROE by appearing to be an unarmed civilian who's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, if they see you exiting a tunnel(hideout) or coming out of the insurgent main, they have every right in the ROE to kill you on sight, because it's obvious your working with them.

What? Aren't you mixing up reality with game rasons?

badmojo420 wrote:if they see you exiting a tunnel(hideout) or coming out of the insurgent main, they have every right in the ROE to kill you on sight, because it's obvious your working with them

Everyone knows that players are collabs anyway and about realism it's highly doubtful for me that they just shoot to people going out of tunnel, from the corner or something like that... according to official version they even killed Osama because he didn't want to surrender and was armed and it was pretty obvious he is working with "them". ;]

If armed insurgents were coming out of a tunnel and firing at US soldiers, do you think they would wait to see a weapon before they killed the next guy coming out? If someone in that tunnel shoots at them, everyone in that tunnel is considered hostile.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's just another engine limitation. But, I think my idea makes some sense.

The point is I doubt people are just popping out out of tunnel like that irl. IRL even rebels have a bit of instinct of their live. ;] In PR you just spawn on top of hideout and get sometimes killed.

I agree that they would not hesitate too much if someone dares to get out of tunnel/hideout that is returning fire, but in PR you CAN'T move back to the tunnel and stay as civillian inside or even move away. ;]

Protip to everyone in this thread: You can't shoot unarmed people in Afghanistan even if they're coming out of a hideout unless they can be, and I'll bold this for emphasis, positively identified as a high level insurgent leader, and those missions are generally only conducted by SF.

It goes even further than that. ISAF can't even engage people with weapons unless they pose a threat, potentially pose a threat or are going to to pose a threat soon (in which case, they are to be engaged once all other options are exhausted).

The level set for use of lethal force in PR is at about the level that would have seen us kicked out of Afghanistan nearly a decade ago if we'd been using it. What is depicted in PR is, for the most part, war crimes. For example, one of the triggers for a Civi losing his protected status in PR is using a medkit - this is one of the few things that is enshrined in international law as giving you protected status. By the logic PR uses, a local doctor could be summerarily executed by ISAF for providing medical aid to insurgents. Hell, US medical flights and medics that are obliged under international law to provide medical aid to wounded and/or captured insurgents would probably become targets under the bizarre and backwards system PR uses.

Make no mistake, I understand the necessity of some degree of unrealism for PR to function as a game, but the entire INSY gamemode is completely backwards and screwed up. It doesn't function as a game if played in the most effective way by INS, it isn't just unrealistic (it is, in that every battle is depicted as a full scale assault, a la Fallujah, of which there have been very few in the entire decade and a bit we've been there, and the largest consideration at every level of the war - the ability of the insurgents to intermingle with protected civilians, instead of being the largest factor in the game, is barely a side consideration that has been progressively watered down over the last few years of PR's development) it's actually completely backwards in some parts. Let me be frank - I think INSY is a terrible game mode which has only survived because of an excellent community that plays PR as a semi role playing game and doesn't exploit it for the utter trainwreck it is. I also think the only practical way to fix the INSY system is to seperate Collaborators from the entire concept of a civilian, give Collaborators a pistol and have a dedicated civilian class who has none of the combat utility of a Collaborator, but all the medical stuff and the rope. (Ie. Collab gets binocs, phone, pistol, ammo bag, rope, rock, unarmed. Civi gets unarmed, rock, medkit, revive, rope. If the Civi class could somehow be removed from both teams, that would be an extra bonus, but I can't see the PR team's python coding being good enough to work around stuff and do that).

I'm sorry but if we're going to, shock horror, try to introduce realism into a discussion on Project Reality, it starts to look pretty grim. If you want a system anything like the current Collaborator system in PR, don't even mention realism.

If anyone has any issues with my above post, and would like to discuss the Laws of Armed Conflict, please PM me, I'm happy to explain it, and any unclassified bits of the current ROE that are in the public media. Please don't make this thread a discussion of LOAC.

Also, I'm aware that the PR team has people on it who (really should) know LOAC inside out. I'm perfectly aware that they adopted this system knowing it's pretty much the opposite of reality, I just happen to think that was silly and the game mode, and game, is much poorer for it.

It's one (or two) minutes before you can become a martyr, which is not long at all if you have any patience. With your suggested system I do believe I would be able to drop my weapon and instantly become a civilian thus amplifying the ease of exploitation.

I completely agree that the collab kit is outdated and it makes the whole experience extremely frustrating when the insurgents exploit it. "Oh hey those are mortars falling I'm going to run into them", or "Oh hey there is a piece of armor I'm going to wait till he is shooting guys with guns and run into the splash damage" and last but not least "I'm dead no matter what I'll drop my kit and wait a minute before I run into enemy fire". This mentality is not only common it's come to be the acceptable norm with collaborators. I have been eagerly awaiting removal or over haul of this horribly abused system for a while now (Hamas has civilians? It's exploited by at least one Hamas guy any time they are in play).

My favorite is getting wounded by a 5.56, dropping kit, going somewhere safe and bleeding out to troll the leet-scope ******* that wounded me while alt tabbed or trolling all chat about the impending penalty he can do nothing about
Actually, the main reason I ever play this game mode, and when I do I only play as insurgent is all this civi/collab fun.

But exploits aside - What's the fun of being insurgent w/o civis?
Acting as cannon fodder for some role playing blufor fanbois when most of your kills wont even count thankz to the incredibul medic spam?
Civi's are a way to troll the blufor back, regain some cm's of your e-peen you just lost after getting slaughtered 4 times in a row or camping a cache for 40 mins and seeing it blown up through a wall by a suicidal c4 squad.

Wish le-taliban had them - much has changed (the players) since the original 0.95 release when usually ins would win, now blufor wins eazy-mode even on 128 kokan. Me even thinks the intelligence penalties arent harsh enough..

Kain888 wrote:The point is I doubt people are just popping out out of tunnel like that irl. IRL even rebels have a bit of instinct of their live. ;] In PR you just spawn on top of hideout and get sometimes killed.

I agree that they would not hesitate too much if someone dares to get out of tunnel/hideout that is returning fire, but in PR you CAN'T move back to the tunnel and stay as civillian inside or even move away. ;]

True enough, which is why I usually spawn at main when spawning in as collaborator. It gives you a safe place to sit for that 60seconds. But, what murphy said also works, spawn in with a weaponized kit, secure the area and then drop your weapon. And it sits there for 5 minutes in case you need it. Although with that method you don't get the goodies that normal civies do(rope, med pack, etc) but you do get a full sprint bar.

Truism wrote:I'm sorry but if we're going to, shock horror, try to introduce realism into a discussion on Project Reality, it starts to look pretty grim. If you want a system anything like the current Collaborator system in PR, don't even mention realism.

The idea of an unarmed collaborator comes from reality, the developers didn't think that one up on their own. So please spare us the "PR isn't real!" rant, we know.

PR is a video game that draws inspiration from reality, not a war/counter insurgency simulator.

Imo, all of the "collaborator abuse" cases have been results of Blufor failing to communicate with eachother.

See collaborator? Get your semi-automatic shotguns....arrest with buckshots...

Collaborator in the way of tank? Back off and let friendlies take care of them with shotgun(mumble is there, use it). If no friendly footsoldiers are anywhere near there; that means tank is not doing what it is supposed to do(back off and try again).

Civilians running into mortar? Like everyone already knows, it is due to spamming of mortar just in attempt to clear out an area for easy access... If you want to pretend to be good guys; DO NOT mortar cities indiscriminately.

Collaborators should spawn "innocent" and should not be rightfully killed even when using medic kit.

badmojo420 wrote:True enough, which is why I usually spawn at main when spawning in as collaborator. It gives you a safe place to sit for that 60seconds. But, what murphy said also works, spawn in with a weaponized kit, secure the area and then drop your weapon. And it sits there for 5 minutes in case you need it. Although with that method you don't get the goodies that normal civies do(rope, med pack, etc) but you do get a full sprint bar.



The idea of an unarmed collaborator comes from reality, the developers didn't think that one up on their own. So please spare us the "PR isn't real!" rant, we know.

PR is a video game that draws inspiration from reality, not a war/counter insurgency simulator.

Unarmed collaborators can't be shot unless they are directly contributing to a threat, eg running ammunition, adjusting mortars.

Sure, there are unarmed collaborators overseas. Guess what, there's next to nothing that an be done about them. Supporting the Taliban is not grounds to engage someone unless it poses a direct threat. So spare me the "PR is notionally realistic." rant, we know, it also just so happens that on a scale of "unrealistic element to force realistic play" to "unrealistic element that makes no sense from a design or balance perspective" the entire collaborator shenanigan sits all the way to the right and detracts from PR on every level.

sorry this is going to be long and complicated and could make you think. but this is a complicated game mode and a complicated class. this is all mostly a gameplay suggestion, not really a real life one.

if its not possible to make it so you can "spawn" innocent, yet still take 60 seconds if you drop your kit or pick up a civi kit then its a bust of course.

think of this situation: spawn in as civi, wait 60 seconds then go to your squad, then get killed as martyr (thats supposed to be good?). wait 30 seconds then wait another 60... get shotgunned walking because you were trying to catch up to your squad solo. get an extra 200 seconds spawn, then wait another 60 after.

after this long boring portion of gameplay you would have waited almost the entire time and helped the team non unless you were able to support your squad. thats doing it the smart way (?). instead you could have the ability to just kill them all or have a class with a medic kit and a gun without that massive waste of time. but dont get me wrong, i love the idea of having this class. so this is an attempt to improve not give up.

lets compare negatives to positives.
if you dont wait you will probably get shot (+1 ip) or maybe arrested (+10 ip to them) perhaps you will martyr (-10 ip) but fat chance if you aren't trying. theres 2 chances of fail to 1 of success. if you do the same math for spawn time incurred and taken, it seems fine. but if you are playing like that you are probably reviving and such just removing all chances of hurting their IP while giving them the chance to gain it very quickly and give you a big spawn time. probably hurting your team more than helping.

on that note, the thing i have not mentioned that is unbalanced is the ability to be arrested when not innocent. you can get arrested at any point in time, but you can't always martyr.

not being compared is the exploit if you get shot (but not killed) and you are innocent, you can just jump to your death and they still get penalized. its not really that bad seeing as they had the intent to kill you by shooting you. but still, you are choosing to die.

another interesting mechanic
while we are talking about martyr mechanics i'd also like to question why the IP + spawn penaltys are applied before giving up? that includes being arrested. if you get zip tied or stunned, and your allys blow the enemys to bits and pick you up, how are you arrested?

same goes for being shot. if you dont actually die, how are you a martyr? it would be more realistic if both examples were applied after being dead, not wounded. if they can revive and save tickets, you should be able to revive and save IP.

Nebsif wrote:My favorite is getting wounded by a 5.56, dropping kit, going somewhere safe and bleeding out to troll the leet-scope ******* that wounded me while alt tabbed or trolling all chat about the impending penalty he can do nothing about
Actually, the main reason I ever play this game mode, and when I do I only play as insurgent is all this civi/collab fun.

But exploits aside - What's the fun of being insurgent w/o civis?
Acting as cannon fodder for some role playing blufor fanbois when most of your kills wont even count thankz to the incredibul medic spam?
Civi's are a way to troll the blufor back, regain some cm's of your e-peen you just lost after getting slaughtered 4 times in a row or camping a cache for 40 mins and seeing it blown up through a wall by a suicidal c4 squad.

Wish le-taliban had them - much has changed (the players) since the original 0.95 release when usually ins would win, now blufor wins eazy-mode even on 128 kokan. Me even thinks the intelligence penalties arent harsh enough..

This is the best post summing the point of Insurgency of course EXCEPT the exploit get hit-f -> drop kit -> wait -> die.

The idea of Insurgency is heavily asymmetrical game, where blufor can smash enemy easily, but in return the game mode requires them a bit of intelligence and less ramboing. Just showing that the war is not only COD packed rambos running around and shooting to everyone... That why INS mode with Iraqi Ins is my favorite mode, even tho heavily broken due to cache mechanism.

Playing as INS for most people is no-go and they leave the server, because like Nebsif said it requires you to camp one location for 40min and then fail by some blufor gimmick like C4. Collaborator idea gives a bit of simulating reality and it punishes people who Nebsif very well summed up.

Current INS is more like full scale guerrilla warfare against blufor.

Truism wrote:Unarmed collaborators can't be shot unless they are directly contributing to a threat, eg running ammunition, adjusting mortars.

Sure, there are unarmed collaborators overseas. Guess what, there's next to nothing that an be done about them. Supporting the Taliban is not grounds to engage someone unless it poses a direct threat. So spare me the "PR is notionally realistic." rant, we know, it also just so happens that on a scale of "unrealistic element to force realistic play" to "unrealistic element that makes no sense from a design or balance perspective" the entire collaborator shenanigan sits all the way to the right and detracts from PR on every level.

I never claimed PR is notionally realistic. I said it draws inspiration from real life. Plenty of video games draw inspiration from real life while still remaining quiet unrealistic when looking at the details.

The whole Battlefield series for example, why are there planes? Well because in real wars there are planes. Are the runways spaced 2km apart in real life? No.

Heck, maybe we should replace the collaborator with an android type being that heals the insurgents, we could use PRBot as its head. That way nobody would be under the misconception that in real life unarmed collaborators can always be shot with shotguns and are 'ok' to kill for 60 seconds after leaving a tunnel. You know, for all the people who can't tell PR apart from real life.

The biggest problem is the the fact that a blufor player already is 100% certain that the "civie" is actively working against them. that they are actively spotting for mortars and bomb cars and acting as bait.

the system does not work unless there is some level of uncertainty of threat. The collaborator penalties are meant to say that you shot someone who was potentially a civilian. this requires that there are civilians int he area. there are not, there is only team 1 and team 2 present in the area and these guys though unarmed are with out a doubt affiliated with team 2.

irl you could know somebody is guilty of murder but you still need proof right?

letting these blufor shoot civis without question because they are probably not innocent isn't right. need to penalize these mass murderers!