Project Reality Forums

Before I say anything, I want to make it clear that this is not a thread asking about when the next patch comes and I don't want it made into a thread discussing that subject, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. What I do want to ask is whether or not there is a strategy for the release dates of patches and, if so, ask what it is.

The reason I am asking this is that I feel that the current patch release schedule, whatever it may be, is not in the best interest of Project Reality and its community on the whole. Project Reality is a seven year old mod, a long life for a video game by anyone's standards, and it has now been eighteen months since its last major patch, v.95, was released to the public and ten months since its last patch was released. Both these times greatly exceed the amount of time elapsed between any other pair of sequential PR:BF2 releases.

During this period, however, significant releases of other games, including Battlefield 3, have occurred and gone largely unanswered by the Project Reality development team, providing reasons for members of the Project Reality community to move to other venues, something many have done.

Evidence of this occurrence has been noted as follows:

- The closing of community factions due to lack of development activity

- A noted decline in Project Reality's online player population

- The closing of one of Project Reality's foremost servers, TacticalGamer PR:BF2 Public, due to lack of activity

- A reduction in the amount of donations being made to the Project Reality development team (the monthly donations objective has been, for example, reduced from $360 to $200)

It must be understood that the departure of community members from Project Reality is inherently detrimental to the overall health of the game, and with the passing of time it becomes increasingly unlikely that those who do leave will continue to follow the game and thus return upon the release of additional content.

I believe that the best way possible to counteract this phenomenon is to maintain a steady supply of fresh content to PR:BF2, a theory that has been proven by the continued commercial viability of many old games which have implemented it. PR:BF2 clearly has content available to be released; we have seen hints of it for some time now, yet no release or major update has occurred.

Which brings us back to the original question, regarding what Project Reality's strategy for patch releases is. I believe that I have provided a valid strategy for a patch release schedule for Project Reality, involving a more rapid release of content than the game has currently - intended to provide an incentive for players to continue playing the mod - above and all I am asking is for a statement regarding the Project Reality developers current patch release strategy and their reasons for it - rest assured I went into this with the intention of being open minded and I will be open to any response given; this is not a "gotcha" thread by any means. Again, I believe that a statement regarding the above would be hugely appreciated by the community at large.

I am aware of the response PR's developers generally give to the question here - "when it is done" - but the word "done" is a subjective term - I am unsure what, in the case of a Project Reality patch, constitutes the word - and I would be extremely grateful to the Project Reality development team if they would be willing to provide their definition to it to the community.

Once again, this is not a thread asking for the date of the next release or more content and I would be greatly appreciative it were kept that way.

Thank you for reading,
ShockUnitBlack

Well, we had the map pack, and vietnam, and normandy, and the sound mod, and the new mumble..

I dont think it's a lack of content, I think it's just that it's been so long since project reality was last advertised.

The only way to really revive PR, is a full standalone "indie" game, with a low price tag, and advertising. That is what PR2 could be, a modestly successful mil-sim, with 10 or so full servers 24/7.

Though I still believe we will still have full servers for a while still, moreso after 1.0 is out.

40mmrain wrote:Well, we had the map pack, and vietnam, and normandy, and the sound mod, and the new mumble..

I dont think it's a lack of content, I think it's just that it's been so long since project reality was last advertised.

The only way to really revive PR, is a full standalone "indie" game, with a low price tag, and advertising. That is what PR2 could be, a modestly successful mil-sim, with 10 or so full servers 24/7.

Though I still believe we will still have full servers for a while still, moreso after 1.0 is out.

Out of those five things though, two have been complete flops, and another two have been partial-flops. For example, I have been around on PR for a few months now, and I have yet to play a Vietnam map because no server plays it, and if they do, then the server basically dies out because everyone jumps ship. Normandy is the same way, a few days of active playing on behalf of the population base, and now? Nothing, nobody plays Normandy on a large scale due to the mod still being buggy and far from completion.

Now onto the sound mod and map pack. Both of which were great, but are not being used as much as they should be. A lot of servers tend not to run most of the maps from the map pack, just like a lot of servers don't tend to run the sound mod out of fears from players that if they don't have the mod downloaded, they can't play on that server.

The only truly successful release thus far has been the new mumble, and even that, some people don't use as much as they should. I totally support the OP, I think the PR team needs to be more rapid on these releases, even if that means releasing a couple 'moderate' projects at a time (maybe every two months or so), just to keep the player base nibbling.

Don't get me wrong though, I do think ultimately the PR team will have to release an indie, stand-alone game to ensure that the player base will stick around for some more time to come, as BF2 is getting really old, and obviously, the graphics and engine have long since been outdated.

Very well said Shock, i look forward to seeing a response as well.

I'm inclined to agree as well. Stale gameplay has deterred me onto other games. Everyone knows the insurgency aspect makes PR a wonderful and orignal game, but after you play it long enough you know where caches spawn, how to get them easily and so forth. A major overhaul on Insurgency would bring me right back on board.

Regarding servers, what I suggest is a community sponsored server. Everyone donates X amount of dollars and for that month they get a space reserved when it's full or whatnot. Also this way those who donate can have a say in the map rotation, therefore it is always changing and all the lovely maps get featured instead of the same old same old.

Yes that is what clans do but I think if one of the DEVS managed it, it would run far more effective and if everyone could get a yoursay so to speak on these forums for all to see it would be a successful server.

PR?

stale?

man I did 1100 hours from Oct 2010-Jan 2012 and I wasnt bored once. That's not the problem for me at least. It's just that PR isnt advertised, this is like marketing 101 man. You gotta advertise, but unfortunately PR is not a product so no advertising funds are available.

With the kickstarter fad in full swing (3.3), raising like, 100,000 fucking dollars is reasonable, considering the existing playerbase, and perhaps the number of people out there that enjoy milsims, and general MODERN SHOOTAN. I dont know about you, but that's probably a decent fund to get the PR2 ball rolling again. It's silly to think that BF2: PR will survive forever, every game ever no matter how great dies one day if complacent. I believe that this game is excellent, and can adapt to the future. THese are probably some of the more realistic options.

Fairly good points, ShockUnitBlack.
Really Wish to see DEVs' response.


But, Making a mod is NOT easy, PR has gone too far away from BF2, more problems there are than others mods.

These are what I personally see.

-People did not depart because there is no update. People departed, for those who were here for long time, is because Insurgency is and other settings are 'broken'. And new people that joined, those who heard there was release of new mod, which caused spike in population, left because it was not for their taste.

-About lack of update seen as cause of decline in mod population:
Does that mean if PR stops update at complete 1.0, people stop playing because there is no more new contents and changes? That does not make sense. 'New content' I suppose is that of changes to game setting that happens every update. They are not changed to stimulate game nor population, it is made because it is a fix that brings PR closer to final, finished, complete setting. And new guns and tanks can only go so far too. Mod will eventually come to point were all of weapons used in conflict depicted in PR is already included in the mod.

-We should not ask for too much. After all, this is freeware that is handed out like volunteer service by those who likes to make games, not obliged to.

-The fact people make these thread repeatedly shows there is many people that are- passionate about this mod.


Sorry for rough construction of this post. I try hard to make it easy and pleasant to read as much as possible on every post.

Simple.

If you think the game is too buggy, apply for the testing team.

If you want new content and patches, go to the community modding section, look for tasks you can be doing, learn to model or code, and do some work to help out the team.

If anything, there is a noticeable decline primarily because many of the devs who have been working on the game for years are getting older and moving on (rightfully so) and there aren't many people from the community moving up to fill the ranks.

I can assure you there are a number of people working hard and doing their parts to get the next patch out (myself included), and when it comes out there will be a healthy resurgence in the game, as there always is ( especially considering some of the stuff we're working on ).

You must understand that we say "it will be done when its done" because we don't want to release until we have something complete. The less we abide by that, the buggier the release. The less people we have, the longer it takes.

Again, this thread is solely intended to ask about how PR's patch releases are being scheduled, not about what they may or may not contain. The amount of content in the patches is irrelevant to the discussion I wanted to have.

At the same time, I'm not trying to sound as if I am demanding anything. I am simply trying to provide feedback regarding the current patching schedule.

I tried to read it but all i can think is about how much better the game has become and with new PR mumble and alot of other things. Done? its a free mod, just take a break if its too much for you.

I can only speak for myself on this matter, but I stopped playing this mod due to lack of new content or new updates. A couple years ago, there would be new highlights on a regular basis that made me really excited for the mod and made me want to play. The same old issues plague the game that should have been fixed a long time ago, and there is a general decline in interest in this game with so many other titles. The decline in players cannot be attributed to lack of advertisement or public knowledge, as I see more and more people every day who have played and enjoyed this mod. It's simply that there's nothing to attract people back to this game, and while it's enjoyable it is very old, and there are too many issues that cannot be easily fixed, such as deviation and other limitations that have been forced on the players.

I understand that it's based on an old engine and devs have real life issues to contend with, they don't have any kind of obligation to provide new material, and they have certainly defied expectations with the popularity and longevity of this mod. However, it's just a game to me, and I'm going to play whatever is most fun for me, which is how it should be. Though I've spent something like 3000 hours playing PR BF2, there are so many other games releasing exciting new content, especially in the ArmAsphere. Dayz, ACE, ArmA 3, and hell even BF3 give me considerably more to look forward to than PR does now.

What I'm trying to say is that no one is forcing you to play this game, and if you're bored with it, go do something else. People will come back to this mod when they find it interesting and enjoyable, not after someone tries to shove it down their throats.

Jolly wrote:Fairly good points, ShockUnitBlack.
Really Wish to see DEVs' response.


But, Making a mod is NOT easy, PR has gone too far away from BF2, more problems there are than others mods.

I agree they went too far away from bf2 0.5 was best pr

If we were still at 0.5, the mod would've been dead already .

PR has grown a lot since then. Not always for the best. We try out some new things, some get adjusted, others reverted.

We needed to take a deep breath and see where we stand. And so we did;

We're all "growing up". Many of us have fulltime jobs, a wife, kids even. We're still passionate about modding, just don't have the same amount of free time as we used to. Some of us are retiring as you may have noticed.

We've also cleared our entire team recently. Many people have gone MIA. Many R-CONs have left, almost all testers were "fired". We had to take a good step back, to get back on our feet and get a fully functional team again.

Put all that together and well, you see where the slow progress comes from.

The lack of updates and highlights... you're right. We haven't ignored your calling and hope to bring you some goodies in the future. Talking about the future though, we sure have some very nice things for you in v1.0.
We're not wasting our precious time. We have great community factions, new maps, new toys to play with. Loads of things. And according to us, v1.0 is certainly not the end. It's just a number, we can't avoid it forever can we .



Regarding the definition of "done". I really can't make anything else of it than:

When we've implemented all the changes we planned and have cleared out all the bugs we could find, we're building 'release candidates' and pick the last one. And then, it's done. But when exactly that is, we don't know. We make plans, we set goals and aim for a certain time. But this is not a job, real life often gets in the way or we encounter bugs we want to fix before releasing it to you.

That's the best definition of "done" I can give you I'm afraid.

Guys, you might not know how I would love to release 1.0 tomorrow. It's not that we keep it back for fun.
Each release is hard work and needs long commitments from a lot of guys.
I understand the need of a release but please try to understand the DEV team as well.
Releasing stuff is not at easy as it sounds like, there is a long chain of work behind each item.

Take a new vehicle for example. Even if somebody completely finishes a model (imagine all the LODs and textures) it requires an exporter to get it ingame, a coder to make it properly work and a tester to check it out. If one of these steps is missing you won't see it ingame. And it's not that we have thousands of DEVs on each of that positions.

Without wanna sound dumb or anything but if you want PR to get released faster start modding
We are happy about every help we get especially in the coding area.
We DEVs are no employees that get payed from anybody...we are community members with interest in modding that started as players like you.

Hope you got my point, other than that YES we are still working on 1.0 and YES it is coming. And man, it will be freaking awesome

Cruzmissile14 wrote:but I think a lot of us would trade quality for release date.

I think many of you wouldn't like it very much if we released something that constantly crashed the serves after 20mins of play

Personally I think PR is perfectly fine right now. It entertains me, there's nothing that I can see that really needs to be fixed (except from soundbugs and the Insurgency game-mode). The developers releasing patches is just a boost that I don't really need. You've survived 18 months, might as well survive another couple of months so you won't get a shit patch full of bugs.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:I think many of you wouldn't like it very much if we released something that constantly crashed the serves after 20mins of play

Amen to that.

You raise some valid concerns, so since it's in the PR:BF2 section and about PR:BF2, and I'm the PR:BF2 Project Manager, hopefully I'll be able to answer a few . I'm not going to talk about PR:A2 or PR2, since I'm not involved in them at all so I really have no idea what's happening there, but I will say that significant work is being done on both. Both PR:A2 and PR2 are separate teams, so the fact that people are working on them both has no impact upon PR:BF2's development ability. Just saying this in case anyone brings up a point about that, as many have done before...

First thing, about release dates. Anyone that has been around the PR world for a while will know about how we handle releases. We never give a release date until a week or two out from it. The reason behind this is because we don't want to give a release date, then have to delay it or whatever because it's just not going to happen. Every single developer for PR works for free, out of their own spare time, often with many other real life things going on. We're not like traditional gaming companies that pay their employees for full time work, offer incentives, force overtime, and usually release a game unfinished just to make some random release date to keep their publishers happy. No, when we release, it will be on our terms, only when we're happy enough to release it.

You've heard it all before, all the devs here are working on this for free, no one is forced to work on anything, everyone has their own real life commitments to keep. Devs come and go, some devs run out of things to do and leave, some devs get burnt out and disappear never to come back, some devs come back after a long time away and become awesomely productive again. Every dev here has their own reasons to working on PR, some have had their reasons fulfilled and happy leave, others still have years to go until they are satisfied, and some never are.

As some of you may have seen, a few months ago the PR:BF2 team had a massive spring clean, removing inactive developers, promoting others to lead positions, essentially condensing the team into a lean and mean working machine. The entire test team bar 2 or 3 got removed in hope to rebuild it to be more effective (applications are open people!). Various new PR tools have been made and/or implemented to optimise our workflows. For example, we restructured entirely our working "pr_repo" along with a brand new build application to speed up build and test times, we're now using a new project management and issue reporting tool to help organise the complexities of software development (Rhino posted some pics in a recent dev blog), and there's a few other little things that the public doesn't need to know, but is helping to make us more effective than before.

Inactive developers and other issues has hindered our development in the past, it is our hope that all this behind the scenes restructuring will help to sort out the issues we've been having. But of course, all this restructuring has hindered development for the last few months while things have been sorted out, and we're only still trying to get back on our feet while the developers learn to use the new tools available to them...

So as for the declining playerbase. This happens after every release. Because it's been so long since our last, and so many other good games have been released, it only makes sense that it's going to be worse than before. All I can hope is those who leave will return when we release v1.0. We have tried to counteract this by releasing the map pack in December, and Vietnam in April, however being optional add-ons, it's never going to be accepted the same as a required new version.

For those who will think, "why don't you just release a new version with that content?", well, releasing a new version is a lot of effort, and especially at the moment with all the restructuring, quite complicated and near impossible. It's far from being as simple as "make a new installer, release, ..., profit" as many people seem to think it is. Not going to go into the reasons, they're not necessary, just know that for each main version release, there's a seriously long checklist to go through...

So, we're well aware of the issues with releases that we have at the moment, it's not good at all. Don't worry, we get it, we're not oblivious to this, seriously... v1.0 will be addressing these issues (in fact, this is actually my main development task!), and while exactly how it will all work and everything isn't finalised and it isn't ready to be announced publicly, it will make releasing patches so much easier. So because of that, you will see a seriously quicker release schedule, likely as fast as releasing things as they gets done, rather than sitting on things until the next release.

Furthermore on the declining playerbase, we're also aware of many of the issues (apart from the lack of shiny new things) that people have been having. v1.0 will also address many of these things to. For a release that simply the version number alone will bring in players, we're well aware of what needs to be done to keep the old and new players alike to keep on playing, and yeah, they're going to get addressed, don't worry.

Anyway, so I'm rereading the OP, and this little quote stuck out to me:

ShockUnitBlack wrote:PR:BF2 clearly has content available to be released; we have seen hints of it for some time now, yet no release or major update has occurred.

So this mainly goes back to what I was talking about before. We have released content (map pack, Vietnam), but it goes back to the fact that our current release platform is terrible, hard to work with, and with inactive developers, and all the behind the scenes restructuring, impossible at the moment (the new build app at the moment has no way to package a new release, I've still gotta add that in ). And with v1.0 bringing in a brand new release system, there is a lot of preparation that needs to go into it, tools be created, developers trained, a new test team to create!, etc etc... That is why you haven't seen a release in 10 months. That is why you haven't seen a major release in 18 months. Things have been in limbo while we've been working hard at getting things sorted so things can work much faster in the future.

Also another thing in the OP, about the donations being reduced. There's reasons behind that, but not because we need less money, infact we need more. Perhaps it's because we're too proud to come out and say "Donate Donate Donate!!!", but seriously, money helps. People say things like Kickstarter, no, we're not going to do that for PR:BF2 (we're not kick starting anything?), but if you've got some spare change, even if you've donated before, please donate again, it helps... Where does it go to? Servers and the ever increasing costs of bandwidth for the website/forums/stuff. Those things aren't free, money has to come from somewhere. Hey, even at the moment, I alone am paying for the PR Mumble server out of my own pocket (I don't get the donations ), and I'm a poor Uni student (thanks to all those people using up bandwidth playing music!)... It's not exactly pocket change...

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough, probably gone around in circles and haven't really said anything in particular. So the TL;DR version:

We're well aware of the issues, and we're well aware of what needs to be done to fix them. The stuff planned for v1.0 will seriously help us to address these issues, and offer us a platform to continue addressing into the future. What exactly these things will be, they'll be announced when they're ready and we know exactly how it's all going to work (same as always).

No PR:BF2 isn't dead, it's simply at the end of a cycle, with the new cycle happening with v1.0.