Maps to be removed
Posted: 2012-09-21 19:03
So, 1.0 is approaching, eventually. I'm sure the dev team has thought about which maps need removal, because they do it all the time thankfully. Considering removing maps takes literally zero effort, this is a good time to discuss this.
Please post maps in this thread that you feel are : outdated, catastrohpically imbalanced, or not up to PR's standards. This thread is not intended for you to say how you find kashan unfun because you only play infantry or something. Include why.
1. Korengal Valley.
Korengal valley is an awful map. Even with the huge amount of tickets, and 2 caches at once the americans receive, and can attack, this map is impossible to play properly. Firstly, are the impossible caches. An impossible cache is exactly what it sounds like, caches that are impossible for either side to attack, or defend respectfully. Examples include, but are not limited to, caches in caves with water youre required to swim through leading for the easiest chokepoints in the game, caches that youre required to throw 3 ropes up to, making it impossible to get to it, as youre completely defenseless climbing up a rope. There are countless caches like this in korengal. The second reason korengal ought to be removed, is the stupid terrain. There is nowhere you can build FOBs in korengal. Because there is no helicopter, roads have collapsible rocks over them, and the roads are so limited, building a fob anywhere, is pointless. All fob locations are predictable, and due to most caches only having 1 road leading to them, even if you built a decent a decent fob, it wouldnt be close to your target, at all. This lead to another huge issue, which is lack of ability to use mortars. Not only does the steep valley make accurate mortar hard, which is not really a bad thing, but only serves to make an impossible map for americans even more.. impossible, as if that makes sense. But, because there are so many limited places to put fobs, and because bridges, rock slides, and so few roads are available running supplies is impossible, mortars in general are simply impossible. I've tried vehemently, with a full 6 man squad to mortar effectively. Even with commander UAV support, it was difficult to actually get accurate, and getting overrun happened all too often, because of our predictable location, and lack of men to defend, due to men having to do dangerous supply runs, and man mortars. This means BLUFOR has no way of utilizing the UAV capabilities to destroy enemy FOBs, and entrenched positions. On top of impossible caches, and counters becoming worthless is the pathetic draw distance. A lot of american weapons, like the M24, and CROWS humvee would be a lot more useful, and give an advantage of firepower like theyre supposed to, if you could see beyond your face in korengal. I've tried tirelessly to organize sniper teams on korengal, and the biggest issue we always run into is, we simply cant see across the valley. Further still, on top of balance issues, the map is outdated. Small draw distance, small map (1km maps are not of recent PR), which means lack of helicopters and other things make maps like dragon fly, and lashkar make korengal look like some vanilla tier map. On the same note as lack of helicopters this compounds the impossibility of mortars, and in general any proper logistics for the americans. Lastly, Battlefield 2's platforming is not suited for what the terrain is like in this game. There are countless mountainsides that are stupid to scale, requiring you to mash the space button trying to get over these little bumps. I dont know what the mapper was thinking, but it's just silly, and frustrating at once. Especially awkward when you are in a firefight at these places.
In short, in a game mode where superior firepower, balances with defensible terrain, the map korengal takes away all of the superior firepower for one side through certain measures, and then at the same time gives as much superior terrain as possible to the other. Doesnt take a mathematician to understand that, that's probably a good way to make your map imbalanced, and therefore BAD. I find it kind of strange that I regularly see the hardcore server playing this map. My only reasoning could be that, players there like to have a "challenge" (it's really not, it's a challenge in the same sense that trying to fit a square peg through a round hole is challenge.), and they believe that they're going to get some sweet solo stealth C4 cache destruction, despite the fact that this NEVER happens. The only good thing I have to say about korengal, is that it has a really nice ambiance and atmosphere. IF you've ever taken a walk on the southwest of the map, the dried river bed, and compounds, and forest are really quite serene, so are other spots in the north. However, this does not make a good PR map, sadly.
I'm posting this, to request a removal for Korengal, or at least promote discussion about why it should be, or shouldnt. However, like I stated, I think it has a nice atmosphere. I'm sure many of us have seen the documentary restrepo, which this map is obviously based on, or rather, the movie takes place, where this is based on, and this was inspired by it. Because of this, I still want a korengal map in the game, just not this one. I've thought a lot about what this map could be, and how it could be good. If any mapper wishes to approach me, and volunteers to do the mapping for a korengal 2.0, backed by my ideas, then i'd love to work with you. HOwever, I have no experience with making maps, at all, so I could not do it myself. Ideas involve proper base placement, and construction, proper asset layout, and proper caches. That being said, without that happening, and I doubt it will, which is fine, all I ask is we talk about korengal.
2. Karbala
Karbala is another terrible insurgency map. It's practically the exact opposite of korengal. From Americans having an impossible time, to having all sorts of free caches, and massive no mans land for insurgents. I read the announcement for karbala in the archives the other day, and what was mentioned was "CQB map" or something? I think the mapper just got really lazy. He started out really well with a nice city in the center, kept expanding out, intended to reach the edges, and then got bored and said "fuck it, good enough" halfway through. Well unfortunately, that makes the map awful, on top of there being little CQB. Karbala suffers from impossible cache syndrome almost as badly as korengal. Karbala has a large amount of caches that are basically free game for BLUFOR, and therefore impossible for insurgents. These include the destructible apartment block in the northwest quadrant, because it's completely cut off, meaning armour can easily intercept any reinforcements coming in, and a fob within the compound will be spotted and taken out very easily. Others like the southern house strip that is again cut off due to a river, and small amount of houses for cover, along with large desert patches for the armour to operate safely in. There are many others. The criteria for these are massive streches of desert bordering the cache area making armour, and air power operation really, really easy. If you've flown in karbala, or driven the tank you'll learn really fast that flying over city caches, and driving the tank in the city is a very delicate operation. Not so in the desert, just park out of rpg, and spg techie range, and with so much open space that a bombcar assault short of a ten man convoy is worthless. Basically free kills for armour at that point. The only saving grace is that there are a few armour chokepoints, like the big mosque area to the north, and the bridges, but these are not hard counters.
Being the opposite of korengal, one would assume that this map takes all the terrain away from the INS, and gives BLU too much firepower, right? Yes, it does! Basically, karbala should be 100% city, but is a really abbreviated version of this, resulting in a massive amount of undefensible caches. This is just bad gameplay, when the point is to defend, and you just can't. I also frequently see hardcore playing this server. This is because people love to switch to BLUFOR, as theyre usually bad players, and this is their only time they can dominate their enemy. This is selfish, and a result of a bad map. Further, it makes victory all too hollow for the BLUFOR. As a closing statement, again, like korengal, this is a cool map, with some character to it, at least in the city. Karbala was a very deadly city in the sunni triangle early on in iraq. The inner city of Karbala really captures that feeling, and brings it into the game. I want karbala, but not this karbala. Karbala 2.0 can be done in two ways, that would make an excellent map. Either simply remove all the outskirt caches, including the southwest refinery, the northwest apartment block, the southern river housing strip, and the hospital, removing caches from the northern mosque complex, and remove the small fenced factory complex to the west. This would mean that Karbala would in reality just be a small, 1x1km city map, with a huge desert around it, which would be an improvement. Or, Karbala 2.0 would be expanding the city all the way out 2x2km, and then giving blufor appropriate assets to balance. As of now the current karbala needs to be removed.
If you want to suggest more maps to be removed, or tell me why im wrong, please discuss. Also I dont know if this goes in suggestions, or not, feel free to move it, mods.
Please post maps in this thread that you feel are : outdated, catastrohpically imbalanced, or not up to PR's standards. This thread is not intended for you to say how you find kashan unfun because you only play infantry or something. Include why.
1. Korengal Valley.
Korengal valley is an awful map. Even with the huge amount of tickets, and 2 caches at once the americans receive, and can attack, this map is impossible to play properly. Firstly, are the impossible caches. An impossible cache is exactly what it sounds like, caches that are impossible for either side to attack, or defend respectfully. Examples include, but are not limited to, caches in caves with water youre required to swim through leading for the easiest chokepoints in the game, caches that youre required to throw 3 ropes up to, making it impossible to get to it, as youre completely defenseless climbing up a rope. There are countless caches like this in korengal. The second reason korengal ought to be removed, is the stupid terrain. There is nowhere you can build FOBs in korengal. Because there is no helicopter, roads have collapsible rocks over them, and the roads are so limited, building a fob anywhere, is pointless. All fob locations are predictable, and due to most caches only having 1 road leading to them, even if you built a decent a decent fob, it wouldnt be close to your target, at all. This lead to another huge issue, which is lack of ability to use mortars. Not only does the steep valley make accurate mortar hard, which is not really a bad thing, but only serves to make an impossible map for americans even more.. impossible, as if that makes sense. But, because there are so many limited places to put fobs, and because bridges, rock slides, and so few roads are available running supplies is impossible, mortars in general are simply impossible. I've tried vehemently, with a full 6 man squad to mortar effectively. Even with commander UAV support, it was difficult to actually get accurate, and getting overrun happened all too often, because of our predictable location, and lack of men to defend, due to men having to do dangerous supply runs, and man mortars. This means BLUFOR has no way of utilizing the UAV capabilities to destroy enemy FOBs, and entrenched positions. On top of impossible caches, and counters becoming worthless is the pathetic draw distance. A lot of american weapons, like the M24, and CROWS humvee would be a lot more useful, and give an advantage of firepower like theyre supposed to, if you could see beyond your face in korengal. I've tried tirelessly to organize sniper teams on korengal, and the biggest issue we always run into is, we simply cant see across the valley. Further still, on top of balance issues, the map is outdated. Small draw distance, small map (1km maps are not of recent PR), which means lack of helicopters and other things make maps like dragon fly, and lashkar make korengal look like some vanilla tier map. On the same note as lack of helicopters this compounds the impossibility of mortars, and in general any proper logistics for the americans. Lastly, Battlefield 2's platforming is not suited for what the terrain is like in this game. There are countless mountainsides that are stupid to scale, requiring you to mash the space button trying to get over these little bumps. I dont know what the mapper was thinking, but it's just silly, and frustrating at once. Especially awkward when you are in a firefight at these places.
In short, in a game mode where superior firepower, balances with defensible terrain, the map korengal takes away all of the superior firepower for one side through certain measures, and then at the same time gives as much superior terrain as possible to the other. Doesnt take a mathematician to understand that, that's probably a good way to make your map imbalanced, and therefore BAD. I find it kind of strange that I regularly see the hardcore server playing this map. My only reasoning could be that, players there like to have a "challenge" (it's really not, it's a challenge in the same sense that trying to fit a square peg through a round hole is challenge.), and they believe that they're going to get some sweet solo stealth C4 cache destruction, despite the fact that this NEVER happens. The only good thing I have to say about korengal, is that it has a really nice ambiance and atmosphere. IF you've ever taken a walk on the southwest of the map, the dried river bed, and compounds, and forest are really quite serene, so are other spots in the north. However, this does not make a good PR map, sadly.
I'm posting this, to request a removal for Korengal, or at least promote discussion about why it should be, or shouldnt. However, like I stated, I think it has a nice atmosphere. I'm sure many of us have seen the documentary restrepo, which this map is obviously based on, or rather, the movie takes place, where this is based on, and this was inspired by it. Because of this, I still want a korengal map in the game, just not this one. I've thought a lot about what this map could be, and how it could be good. If any mapper wishes to approach me, and volunteers to do the mapping for a korengal 2.0, backed by my ideas, then i'd love to work with you. HOwever, I have no experience with making maps, at all, so I could not do it myself. Ideas involve proper base placement, and construction, proper asset layout, and proper caches. That being said, without that happening, and I doubt it will, which is fine, all I ask is we talk about korengal.
2. Karbala
Karbala is another terrible insurgency map. It's practically the exact opposite of korengal. From Americans having an impossible time, to having all sorts of free caches, and massive no mans land for insurgents. I read the announcement for karbala in the archives the other day, and what was mentioned was "CQB map" or something? I think the mapper just got really lazy. He started out really well with a nice city in the center, kept expanding out, intended to reach the edges, and then got bored and said "fuck it, good enough" halfway through. Well unfortunately, that makes the map awful, on top of there being little CQB. Karbala suffers from impossible cache syndrome almost as badly as korengal. Karbala has a large amount of caches that are basically free game for BLUFOR, and therefore impossible for insurgents. These include the destructible apartment block in the northwest quadrant, because it's completely cut off, meaning armour can easily intercept any reinforcements coming in, and a fob within the compound will be spotted and taken out very easily. Others like the southern house strip that is again cut off due to a river, and small amount of houses for cover, along with large desert patches for the armour to operate safely in. There are many others. The criteria for these are massive streches of desert bordering the cache area making armour, and air power operation really, really easy. If you've flown in karbala, or driven the tank you'll learn really fast that flying over city caches, and driving the tank in the city is a very delicate operation. Not so in the desert, just park out of rpg, and spg techie range, and with so much open space that a bombcar assault short of a ten man convoy is worthless. Basically free kills for armour at that point. The only saving grace is that there are a few armour chokepoints, like the big mosque area to the north, and the bridges, but these are not hard counters.
Being the opposite of korengal, one would assume that this map takes all the terrain away from the INS, and gives BLU too much firepower, right? Yes, it does! Basically, karbala should be 100% city, but is a really abbreviated version of this, resulting in a massive amount of undefensible caches. This is just bad gameplay, when the point is to defend, and you just can't. I also frequently see hardcore playing this server. This is because people love to switch to BLUFOR, as theyre usually bad players, and this is their only time they can dominate their enemy. This is selfish, and a result of a bad map. Further, it makes victory all too hollow for the BLUFOR. As a closing statement, again, like korengal, this is a cool map, with some character to it, at least in the city. Karbala was a very deadly city in the sunni triangle early on in iraq. The inner city of Karbala really captures that feeling, and brings it into the game. I want karbala, but not this karbala. Karbala 2.0 can be done in two ways, that would make an excellent map. Either simply remove all the outskirt caches, including the southwest refinery, the northwest apartment block, the southern river housing strip, and the hospital, removing caches from the northern mosque complex, and remove the small fenced factory complex to the west. This would mean that Karbala would in reality just be a small, 1x1km city map, with a huge desert around it, which would be an improvement. Or, Karbala 2.0 would be expanding the city all the way out 2x2km, and then giving blufor appropriate assets to balance. As of now the current karbala needs to be removed.
If you want to suggest more maps to be removed, or tell me why im wrong, please discuss. Also I dont know if this goes in suggestions, or not, feel free to move it, mods.
and i always when given the opportunity will go blufor on that map. it's just a blast, getting anywhere to do anything is a fight for your life.
