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Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-24 19:51
by Filip/Bingo
Hey all!

I'd like to ask, if you could choose between Havoc and Hind, which of those two would you like to see in new PR 1.0?

Say which one and why.

I would choose Hind, because it has a lot of usage in its history, it can carry troops and give them fire support, and what's even better - it looks sexy :mrgreen:

Don't look this as a suggestion, just out of pure curiosity. By the way, admins, how can you add polls to your thread :o ops: ?

Thanks!

Filip/Bingo

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-24 21:46
by A. Reaper
Personally, I would choose the Hind. But if you want each team to have similar assets, Havoc.

I agree: Hind can carry troops, very capable, very deadly. However, a big real life weakness is that the tail easily breaks off, causing it to spin out of control.

Havoc is more similar to other assets in that it only has pilot and gunner, but it doesn't have that fault in the tail (that I know of), and is still plenty capable.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 00:40
by Heavy Death
Million dollar question. I like the Hind for its looks and history, its an icon. However Havoc just looks so out of place it makes me shit my pants.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 01:05
by missinglink
hind all the way

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 01:06
by Midnight_o9
You can forget the fact that the HIND carries troops, ingame CAS helicopters are way too valuable to be risked on the ground picking up and dropping troops. Maybe as a last resort, But I doubt many pilots would take the risk.

I'd choose the Havoc, for personal preference. :)

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 01:35
by Orford
Nah wrong tile should be one man KH-50 black shark or a AA hip fire bug AA. It's a game dude wtf!

1.0 should be about the inf toys.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 02:25
by 40mmrain
*NwA*Orford wrote:AA hip fire bug
it's hardly a bug, and it's not more effective than sight firing if you know what youre doing. Basically, the AA weapon locks regardless of whether or not youre looking down the sights, however the lock times are the same, and in both cases the missiles will NOT track at all if you do not have an actual lock. Meaning the pilot has the same chance to flare, and receives a warning for both cases.

The reasons people somehow seem to think this phenomena is exploitative are as follows. Firstly, people think theyre firing without a lock, and thus think the enemy has no chance to flare, they think hip fire doesnt lock in the same way sighted does. This happens when someone looks at an enemy aircraft with their AA weapon for long enough to lock, and fires from the hip, and then gets a kill, without understanding what's actually happening. They think they're not locking at all, and this is an exploit, but the fact is the enemy heard the warning before the missile impacted, just like if you were aiming with the sights. Secondly, people tend to aim RIGHT AT the target with the sights, when the cone of sensing by your weapon is very large. This causes people to rarely lead shots with AA weapons, which is ineffective. HOwever, when aiming from the hip, people tend to look more in front of their target's trajectory, and thus have a greater success rate of hitting the target, so they think its somehow more accurate, or cheap.

The only advantages hip firing an AA weapon are, is that you can spin around faster, and have nothing blocking your vision. However, you dont get a tone at all, and the missile will NEVER track before youre actually locked, meaning that sometimes you may take too long to lock onto the enemy, letting him flare easily, or sometimes you may fire too early and simply dumb fire the missile.

The only exploit that hip firing truly could have, is that if the lock from a man portable actually comes before the change in tone you hear when sighted, meaning that hip firing allows you to not be confused by erroneous tones, and perhaps be able to fire sooner when you get a real "feel" for the weapon. Even then it's not really an exploit, because you could do the same with the sights.

Remember kids, use your sights, lead your target, and fire at the exact moment you hear the tone for the best results, hip firing is a placebo.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 09:55
by L4gi
Wrong. If you dont sight in, the aircraft wont get a "locked" tone. You're supposed to lead the target if its moving, and fire at it if its stationary. The effectiveness of the hipshot comes mostly from splash damage, which especially for weaker helicopters(Kiowa for example) is deadly.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 09:59
by rodrigoma
I would love to see the Hind in PR, probably my favorite aircraft of all XD~
much better than the modern attack helicopters

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 14:04
by karambaitos
people need to remember that the HIND cant carry troops with a full combat load, so its easy to balance

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-25 16:13
by Pvt.LHeureux
The Hind cause it looks so awesome over a city :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrhLueO_ ... be&t=2m13s

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-26 22:40
by 40mmrain
L4gi wrote:Wrong. If you dont sight in, the aircraft wont get a "locked" tone. You're supposed to lead the target if its moving, and fire at it if its stationary. The effectiveness of the hipshot comes mostly from splash damage, which especially for weaker helicopters(Kiowa for example) is deadly.
splash damage is the same regardless of being sighted or not. Second, the enemy definitely DOES receive a lock tone if youre hip firing, and lock for long enough, ive tested this myself.

The only possibility is that the missile actually locks before the enemy aircraft gets the tone, and the enemy only gets a warning when you have that tone, meaning you can fire before a lock if youre experienced with the weapon enough, and this is an exploit, but that can be done from the hip or with sights.

Ive tested this personally, hip firing too early does not track, at all, and locking for long enough will cause the enemy to hear a tone.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 13:18
by KillJoy[Fr]
People need to remember the Havoc can carry troops too !

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 13:37
by Tit4Tat
40mmrain wrote: Second, the enemy definitely DOES receive a lock tone if youre hip firing, and lock for long enough, ive tested this myself.
Yes it does, Long enough? definitely NOT, you don't even have the time to move your finger onto the X.


Its a glitch, and a stupid one at that and i hope it gets fixed in 1.0.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 14:36
by M42 Zwilling
'KillJoy[Fr wrote:;1837645']People need to remember the Havoc can carry troops too !
Um... how? There's no troop cabin in an Mi-28...

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 16:35
by KillJoy[Fr]
M42 Zwilling wrote:Um... how? There's no troop cabin in an Mi-28...
I know that from reading reading books.

But i found a proper source
While the Mi-28 is not intended for use as a transport, it does have a small passenger compartment capable of carrying three people. The planned purpose of this is to enable the rescue of downed helicopter crews.
Source : Wikipedia

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 17:02
by BadMad
HAVOC ftw.
New era(21-st century) - new, modern vehicle with great firepower.
Wide capabilities on the modern warfare are not actual anymore.
But anyway hind is a good old-school machine with long and interesting history.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 18:04
by M42 Zwilling
'KillJoy[Fr wrote:;1837680']I know that from reading reading books.

But i found a proper source

While the Mi-28 is not intended for use as a transport, it does have a small passenger compartment capable of carrying three people. The planned purpose of this is to enable the rescue of downed helicopter crews.

Source : Wikipedia
I stand corrected. Still, as your source indicates, this is for rescue, not troop transport.

Anyway, I think a Hind would be better in 1.0, since it could be realistically used by most non-blufor factions. It's way more common than the Havoc on the modern battlefield. Plus, it might be interesting to see how a combined attack/transport helicopter might be used.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 18:20
by chrisweb89
40mmrain wrote:splash damage is the same regardless of being sighted or not. Second, the enemy definitely DOES receive a lock tone if youre hip firing, and lock for long enough, ive tested this myself.

The only possibility is that the missile actually locks before the enemy aircraft gets the tone, and the enemy only gets a warning when you have that tone, meaning you can fire before a lock if youre experienced with the weapon enough, and this is an exploit, but that can be done from the hip or with sights.

Ive tested this personally, hip firing too early does not track, at all, and locking for long enough will cause the enemy to hear a tone.
The true hipfire tactic is to not wait long enough for lock. Like you said in the bottom of the quote hipfiring too early doesn't track, which is what the bug is. You manually shoot it near the aircraft, and it proximity explodes. That is why its great against a kiowa, but not a turning highspeed jet.

I love the havok, and I'm not sure how effective the hind would be with how attack choppers are best used effectively ingame. Air to air they would be getting hellfired all day long, and from the ground tanks would be sniping them.Does the hind even carry modern ATGMs equivalent to what the havok carries?

If PR was larger the hind would be awesome with a small troop contingent behind enemy lines. Flying around dropping off and having on call transport and CAS, but as PR is now it would need to do these things on the frontline where I think the dedicated assets do the job better.

Re: Choose between two beasts!

Posted: 2012-11-27 19:30
by Mikemonster
To my knowledge, which is probably a load of b*llocks, the Hind isn't a CAS chopper and isn't a transport chopper but is an ASSAULT chopper. Designed to carry squads to their objective and to provide fire support.

Basically it's the CAS Huey if that had seats.

Anyone interested in the Havoc's 'compartment', don't forget about the Apache's side-slings on the stub wings. Not the same but in a similar vein.