Project Reality Forums

I got to thinking earlier today...."you know what is insurgency missing to make it better and maybe funner to play"

and so i thought what if destroying vehicles counted like killing a civi. that way blufor isnt out just destroying every vehicle they come across (i do this quite often) when patroling. i dont know if this can be encoded into game but here is the hypothetical idea i was thinking.

say 2 civis are driving in a car, blufor sees car and engages, car immediately stops and 2 civis pop out blufor ceases fire and goes over to investigate to see if it is a normal car and not a bomb-car and thus are allowed to carry-on about their business once blufor move out. (of-course bomb-cars and techi can be destroyed on sight)

the other scenario i ponder is 2 civis are in a car/ammo techi, blufor sees this and engages and destroys vehicle with 2 civis inside. blufor is not punished. if civis got out and blufor continues to destroy vehicle and kills the civis, blufor is then punished. if insurgents with weapons were in the car then of-course blufor can continue to engage...killing the enemy but maybe leaving the vehicle or destroying it...whatever is easier or able to be coded if even possible...

civis should just run away on foot and wait till blufor moves out to recover vehicle safely or risk being arrested....

i think this will just add more to the whole shoot/dont shoot type of situations we look for in insurgency and give the already seriously disadvantaged insurgents a little help.

some pros

more shoot / dont shoot

leaves insurgents with some type of transport through out the game

some cons

civis could road kill then get out and get killed and punish blufor

civis could repeatedly get in and out until vehicle gets destroyed then get killed in the blast of the vehicle blowing up by then punishing blufor...both of which could be remedied by a 2 or 3 second rule coded in to civis when getting out of vehicles....maybe even repair stations droped form supply trucks could repair both sides vehicles to keep a vehicle from blowing up and civi running to blast just to punish blufor

i didnt think this through entirely, just kinda wrote my thoughts above, but if possible i would love to see it implemented.
what do you guys think?

Your examples you've given aren't the best ones IMO

But I think the general idea of making civi vehicles that are not being used or recently used by armed combatants (with them having a civi in them or not) being classed as items you can't destroy due to it being classed as collateral damage and doesn't help with the objective of "winning hearts and minds" is a good one

Think there may be a few suggestions on this in the past but going to let this one though anyways

lol. All you would have to do is put a civi in a generic car, and drive straight for an armour piece. They HAVE to assume it's a bombcar. More retarded unrealistic impossible to defend against civi suicide garbage.

The ROE for civis is way too tight already. If youre looking straight at an american APC in a warzone with binoculars, and a cell phone in hand while mortars are falling on the americans heads, you get fucking shot, doesnt matter if you have an AK or not. Nevermind that youre allowed to assault BLUFOR with rocks, kill them, and theyre not allowed to shoot back. It's non sense.

I think the civilian kit should be removed in favour of an insurgent rope kit and medic kit altogether.

40mmrain wrote:lol. All you would have to do is put a civi in a generic car, and drive straight for an armour piece. They HAVE to assume it's a bombcar. More retarded unrealistic impossible to defend against civi suicide garbage.

Ye this is true, making civies not wanting to die is a pretty tricky thing when they can just respawn

But this still could possibly be applied to unarmed/not recently used civi vehicles as patrolling the streets, blowing up every car you come across is still pretty shitty.

40mmrain wrote:The ROE for civis is way too tight already. If youre looking straight at an american APC in a warzone with binoculars, and a cell phone in hand while mortars are falling on the americans heads, you get fucking shot, doesnt matter if you have an AK or not. Nevermind that youre allowed to assault BLUFOR with rocks, kill them, and theyre not allowed to shoot back. It's non sense.

The ROEs on "dickers" (guys with no weapons but radios calling in troop movements and mortars etc) seems to change all the time. Some years its shoot them w/e and others you can't shoot them even if you can 100% confirm they are a dicker as you can see the radio and intercepted the chatter etc since its bad for winning the hearts and minds of the locals.... I'm not sure where it is at in Afghanistan right now but it dose seem to swing back and forth all the time from what I have read.

Anderson29 wrote:say 2 civis are driving in a car, blufor sees car and engages, car immediately stops and 2 civis pop out blufor ceases fire and goes over to investigate to see if it is a normal car and not

For your information civies don't count as civies after they come out cars, they have to wait 1 minute to become a civie.

ROE obviously changes to the climate, deployment to deployment a lot of things change, there is no doubt about that. The issue I see with this is that the majority of people playing civilians are already throwing themselves into the line of fire to martyr themselves while adding nothing of value to their team other then hindering/trolling blufor. This system would add another troll to their bag of bull.

I understand the point of having blufor waltzing through town blowing every vehicle that isn't their own would most probably not happen, but then again I don't think the marines were minding civilian property when they were invading Fallujah. I'm fairly certain there are a fair bit of situations where the civilian population is told to leave their homes the big bad army is coming to wreck shit, and as such it would be expected that most everyone driving on the roads (visibly armed or not) would be considered a potential threat (especially if they were driving towards the marines).

In the end I feel Rhino outlined the root of the problem with anything concerning Civi kits and ROE, you cannot force a civilian to play his role properly (preserving his life). Until there is a proper way to actually have "dickers" act like spotters instead of suicidal morons who just want to get wasted I agree with 40mm the kit should be rethought.

I'm also fairly certain dickers are considered enemy combatants, and most of the time I would assume them to be the more important fighters as they act as intelligence for the insurgency.

Felix wrote:For your information civies don't count as civies after they come out cars, they have to wait 1 minute to become a civie.

I know this bro and that is why this is in the suggestion forum to be considered as a plausible change. Though I will give u that I wrote this idea out on the fly and didn't think out every scenario. ...that's what u guys are for...brainstorming. .lol

To remedy 40's problem, in the OP I state that if the civi dies while in the car there is no punishment for blufor and I also stated that maybe instead of coming out of a vehicle as an instant martyr give a delay of 3 seconds maybe...5 seconds

The only changes i am suggesting here are {adding punishment for destroying unused and unarmed civi cars and i am suggesting lowering the time on civis getting out of cars from that 1 minute to maybe 3 sec... or something.... and leave it at a minute for bombcars and 50cal/spg techis.}

What's wrong with being a civi and just driving around? Insurgents get owned 80 percent of the time with the 2 cache version of insurgency anyways.

oh and thanks rhino....i have never seen it suggested but it wouldnt surprise me if it had been...

and the battle of falujah was more of an AAS type of fight...not a patroling and looking for weapons caches type of fight...

I don't know if code can determine whether a vehicle is manned or not, but destroying abandoned non-bomb vehicles could be a slap-on-the-wrist penalty in teamwork points. I wouldn't really penalize too harshly as buildings get shot to shit all the time in PR.

Anderson29 wrote:and the battle of falujah was more of an AAS type of fight...not a patroling and looking for weapons caches type of fight...

But ingame it's INS not AAS (that could actually be very freakn cool though). I just cringe at any changes to Civilian ROE because players will work to exploit it.

I do not get the big hoopla

so when I play, I know if ive been naughty I better beware.

You could remove INTEL POINTS and the penalty of long civi spawn vs. adding to ure spawn is a fair compromise.

exploits are u get hurt then kill urself wow great exploit guys spawn at main, repeat anyone that does that is retarded.

the real exploits never happen on public, civi cars all but driver are maryters, civi gang manages to kill blufor without getting shot gunned.

may I ask do roadkills count as a kill in PR? or are they legit in PR terms

I still just think civies shouldn't be collaborators. Like, tighten up this roe by removing the utterly ambiguous aspects created by the collaborator class. You can't shoot non-combatants and the gameplay function of civilians/collaborators is to temper the incredible weapons overmatch coalition enjoys by forcing them to use more distinction. Muddying the water with collaborators wouldn't be bad if there were actual civilians as well, but only having disguised and unarmed enemy combatants just invites all these problems.

Collaborator = always shoot, armed with a pistol, phone, binocs, rope, rocks. Alt version with small ieds, pickup with pbied.
Civilian (doctor like in the old days?) = never shoot, unarmed and can't lose their non-combatant status except by changing kits. Medkit, patches, epipens, rocks. Can be knifed to remove from battlefield without penalty.

And rename collaborator. It's too broad a term to be meaningful.

People need to remember that Insurgency fucking sucks and that it should be removed completely from this mod.

While I am not the biggest fan of INS mode it is rather original as far as objective based gameplay goes. The issue is with some of the maps (Archer/Lashkar/Karbala) giving blufor too easy a time, be it asset wise or just how the terrain is preferential for optics and offers the insurgents too few options to even the playing field.

A-symmetrical balance is great fun, and the map developers have done a fantastic job with balance and counter balance in AAS maps (Fools Road being the pinnacle of this skewed balance). Unfortunately the balance on INS maps doesn't seem to have had such careful consideration.

Instating this change would encourage civilians to throw themselves into enemy fire in civilian vehicles, it would not really help balance the actual fighting much but instead give trolls another way to force the reduction of intel. That is exactly why I believe civilian kits should be removed, or at a bare minimum the game-play mechanics reconsidered (Truism has the right idea imho).

Civvies (collaborators) have a distinct role in insurgent warfare. One case is where they actively support their faction, but are easily absorbed back into their local community as non-combatants. The other is how insurgents use them as a shield or bait.

Having written this paragraph and looking at the thread title I realize how unrelated this is. Lol.

I've actually thought about just but in terms of buildings, making them object spawns for Blufor thus if Blufor destroys them they lose points of collateral damage, this making you really think about how to go about it, an "is it worth it" thought process, I would love to see both incorporated.

It's not possible to have all buildings destroyable in PR, because it will increase networkable count to crash. Same count for to many spawners.

[R-CON]Moszeusz6Pl wrote:It's not possible to have all buildings destroyable in PR, because it will increase networkable count to crash. Same count for to many spawners.

I don't mean all, I just mean the already existing destroyable ones ingame switched to object spawners, not all buildings made destroyable.

I know I stay away from destructible buildings as anyone can just blow them up without a care in the world, if those destructible ones were made to take away points, it would, in theory, stop people from just blowing them up without a care in the world.

gx wrote:I've actually thought about just but in terms of buildings, making them object spawns for Blufor thus if Blufor destroys them they lose points of collateral damage, this making you really think about how to go about it, an "is it worth it" thought process, I would love to see both incorporated.

I think you could do it without making them into spawners, the CSBs are not spawners and python can pick them up, but ye we have talked about destroying buildings costing something before in the dev forums but never did anything on it

Basically anyone who has played Insurgency in PR knows that civilians are currently the biggest flaw. As some one put earlier there is 2 solutions: removing them or overhauling them the latter option seems the best way to go as civilians add something unique to PR and balance the gameplay. So to put things into an understanding we need to break down the role of collaborators in real life and then see what fits best in to PR (prioritizing gameplay before realism). So here is a summary of the real life uses of civilians/unarmed insurgents:

-"Dickers":Civilians that use cellphones/radios to inform insurgents of local enemy movements.
-Logistics:Civilians who supply insurgent positions with ammunition and/or recover wounded.
-IED operator:Insurgent disguised as a civilian who places and/or operates IEDs against enemy forces.
-Human shield:Civilians used to stay around sniper or mortar positions to put the enemy in a lose-lose situation.

Really PR needs a combination of these civilians into 2 classes.

-Civilian:Carry's Medical aid and acts as a spotter and human shield. (the current civilian)
Limitation now being that after being Martyred you may not spawn as a civilian again for 10 minutes (suicide rushes are short lived now).
-Alternate Civilian :O perates small IEDs as well as operating as a spotter. (Hides as a Civilian but can be killed as a combatant if the enemy catches on or sees his modified cellphone for operating IEDs.)

With this arrangement insurgency mode is diversified and trolling (which is usually the civilians acting suicidal) is limited by the 10 minute civilian kit spawn penalty for getting yourself killed .


An example of the alternative civilian kits cellphone.