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This will only work if a server can limit a team's player number so it doesn't equal the other team's player count. Example: Instead of 32 vs 32 it'd be like 12 vs 52.

-=Gameplay=-

One team would spawn as the "Special Forces" team. They'd get the equipment you'd see Navy Seals/SAS/whoever else using (basically suppressed weapons with holographics/ACOGs/laser sights). The other team would be insurgents (It'll help balance troop numbers vs equipment quality). There are 4 randomly spawned "caches" on the map that the Insurgents have to defend. However, the Special Forces team only has to destroy one of them. This way the Insurgents aren't all clustered together defending one cache and the Special Forces team can utilize tactics like sending a small group to attack one cache and distract the Insurgents while the majority of the team attacks a different one. This would require much communication/coordination between Special Forces squads.

Once a cache is destroyed, the Special Forces group has to exfiltrate to one of a few extraction zones. This would allow the Insurgents to set up an ambush and possibly catch the Special Forces before they get away. Once Special Forces reaches their extraction point, they have to hold the position and capture it. Once that is done, the game is won. For Insurgents to win, they have to wipe out the Special Forces squad. Respawns are only allowed for Special Forces via the usage of Rallies. This makes Squad Leaders absolutely vital to victory for Special Forces.

-=Balancing=-

As Special Forces will have all kinds of cool toys, Insurgents have greater numbers.

To keep the Insurgents from just sitting on a cache to defend it, a small Dome of Death should be put around each cache that keeps Insurgents away.

If a cache is too well defended for Special Forces to get to it, they should try a different cache as there might not be as many Insurgents defending it. This would encourage scouting and a Marksmen taking overwatch.

-=Pros and Cons=-

Pro- We'd get a new kickass game mode.
Pro- It would encourage team work and Mumble communication as the Special Forces would need to coordinate effectively and Insurgents would need to coordinate about where Special Forces is attacking and where they're going.
Pro- New maps wouldn't need to be designed for this as we could just use Insurgency maps.
Pro- It would encourage Special Forces members to not attack everything they see as some players do in AAS and INS games.

Con- Someone would have to design it.
Con- I have a funny feeling we'd get some CoD players showing up...

I'm not 100% sure it's possible but hopefully one of our python coders will respond.

OH SWEET MOTHER OF PR YESSS

No DoD on cache. Caches shouldn't be immune to pipebombs.

Good for 1 life events

I'd like to write up a big post on why I think this really could work, but i'll start with some small suggestions. Preliminarily I will say this is a really cool idea, and with the right amount of testing, discussion, polling, and tweaking a real game mode like this could be viable.

The basic mechanics are interesting. A two part game type. Firstly where the INS are broken up across a number of caches, and BLUFOR has to take caches out individually, using their intel to their advantage, then a fight over a flag using firepower advantage to win.

Balance is something that takes experimentation to refine, the assets blufor has, the number of caches that are spawned, how many need to be destroyed, how many actual exfil points there are, the different number of men per side, number of hideouts the INS can have and such can all be tweaked. The main issue I see is that the insurgents will be bored to tears. Think about it, if you have 50 men on your team, and 4 caches to defend, youre likely to split up 10 per cache, and about 10 in the field doing their own thing. if BLUFOr only have to destroy one cache, and only have to cap 1 of however many flags that are extraction points, in an hour long round, how many people will see NO action. For BLUFOR it would be a great time, but it would be boring for the insurgents. A game is worthless if it's not entertaining. Something would needed to be introduced to make the game fun for all of the insurgents, but what? AAS works so well because every side has something to attack, so you always have something you can work towards. Ins can be boring for defenders when the enemy simply isnt attacking your cache, and this would be a much more common occurrence in this new gametype.

That's a big dilemma, but it would be so enjoyable for the BLUFOR to win, if you make it acceptably enjoyable for the insurgents, it's worth implementing.

Also, being like 16 vs 48 would be incredibly punishing for the BLUFOR if theyre careless, so I doubt it would be "attract CoD players".

Some ways to balance would be to give BLUFOR really good kits, and unallow the INS to take any. Night vision goggles at night, better deviation, lots of C4, suppressors, everything with a good scope, back up red dot for every rifle, high capacity pistol on every kit, more ropes, lots of incendiaries, etc.

New assets like suppressors for rifles, NVG models, and such would need to be developed, and new maps of course too. A big 4KM at night where Spec-Ops have really stacked kits, ATVs, and a couple apaches (loadout subjective, not necessarily hellfires that rearm super fast) for air support would be a really fun time and worth making.

doop-de-doo wrote:No DoD on cache. Caches shouldn't be immune to pipebombs.

This is true. I imagined Insurgents mining the shit out of it with IED's.

40mmrain wrote:New assets like suppressors for rifles, NVG models, and such would need to be developed...

For the suppressors, I'd imagine we'd be able to modify the current models and just add a tube onto the end of it. So it's not like all new models would be needed.

40mmrain wrote:...but it would be so enjoyable for the BLUFOR to win, if you make it acceptably enjoyable for the insurgents, it's worth implementing.

Maybe make it so that Insurgents still have the four caches to defend, but two of them are mobile. Put the caches in the back of a Gary or something. Then that would also allow high speed shoot outs and ambushes

dude I know the whole SF thing goes against everything PR stands for and all... but I would be lying if I didn't say I would shit myself if I got to play this.

Bluedrake42 wrote:dude I know the whole SF thing goes against everything PR stands for and all... but I would be lying if I didn't say I would shit myself if I got to play this.

Well, I hope it doesn't go against "everything". It would encourage effective teamwork/mumble usage after all. And you definitely wouldn't want to waste assets.

Imagine what you'd be able to pull off with a squad or two of Drakelings!

The core concept is actually a really sound one, its also well in the realms of ***. The implementation has a lot of issues, most notably that 50 ins spread between 4 caches against 12 guys makes for a numerically even fight at the point of friction, which isn't the intention of a gameplay mode where the core concept is numbers vs quality.

I'd actually take it further and make it a worst case scenario 6 vs 58 with outdated air assets where SF team is just doing E&E and needs to make it from one side of the map to an exfil on the other. No respawns for the SF team ofc. Much simpler to code IMO.

Darman1138 wrote:Maybe make it so that Insurgents still have the four caches to defend, but two of them are mobile. Put the caches in the back of a Gary or something. Then that would also allow high speed shoot outs and ambushes

I dont know how realistic, or well that would work :-0 I was thinking as a prototype, what would work best is as follows. SOF are BLUFOR btw, SOF means special operations force.

The spawns work as such. Insurgent spawns work as normal. Mainbases are still a part of the map for insurgents, and hideouts are their mobile spawns, rallies are limited to 1 minute until expiry, and easy overrunment. Of course this number is subjective to change, but a total of 2 hideouts are available to insurgents, and i'll elaborate on why later. Spec ops spawns are unique. A permanent rally that the whole team can use is located in one of many pre-determined spots with a small DoD at the edge of the map, any vehicles that spawn for the infantry (though limited to armed light trans, and small trans like ATVs), and a small repair/rearm/crate station will spawn there, this acts as SOF main. For example, if this game mode were implemented on lashkar there would be many locations at the edges of the map, any edge, determined by the mapper where at the start of the game a permanent spawn point exists. This could be in A2, M3, L13, or what have you. This simulates spec-ops entering an objective zone discretely on foot, or with light vehicles. As it is a main base, it makes no noise, and invisible, and if found by enemy insurgents simply switches instantly to another pre-determined point on the map. These points should be a bit like caches, where theyre in a building, or in thick bush, so it's not easy to see people spawn there, map design can accomodate for this. This makes hunting for the enemy spawn completely fruitless for the insurgents, as it should, base killing is universally unallowed in PR by the developers and server admins. The other spawn that SOF can make is a long rally, that makes little noise, though not too little, and requires a few men to overrun. This is the only other spawn option that SOF have. This is because PR is a game, and respawns are required, SOF guys should not be sendings waves of men like regular insurgency, but still, spawns are needed, simply put. SOF guys also do not set up forward outposts, and this is like this, the idea is a get in, get out type of game.

The objectives in this prototype would again work as such. As to what OP said, there are two stages. First is cache destruction, the objective, second is extraction. I mentioned earlier that the problem of boredom for the INS exists. Four caches, is simply too much let's face it. I think having 2 caches to attack at once, always having them known, and adjusting the player ratio as such would work best. So what happens is at the start of the round the insurgents have two knowns, the SOF guys have good intel theyre acting on, so 60 seconds after the round starts, icons appear on their map. The objective is to destroy one of these caches. Once one of the 2 is destroyed, a second one immediately spawns, SOF are awarded tickets, and intel is gained within 5 minutes. AFter 4 caches are destroyed, then the objective changes. SOF has accomplished their mission, and 3 random flags spawn on the map. Overall these flags should be not unlike caches, where they are countless different ones that can occur on the map, but they are in well thought out areas that are logical to defend. At this time, SOF should have a certain amount of tickets based on how skillfully they eliminated enemy caches. If they were clever with their attacks, or simply better players, they will have many tickets and the last fight will be easier. If they took longer than they should ahve to reach this point, then the final fight will come down the very wire. What happens is SOF must choose one of the three flags as their simulation extraction point. During the cache phase, insurgents had unlimited tickets, but after the caches are destroyed a set number is given to them. The insurgents have no intel as to where the SOF extraction points may be, but as soon the SOF do capture one, the insurgents are notified. After the flag is captured, the insurgent ticket count is unlocked, an insurgent death loses tickets, and a slow bleed from the flag is incurred. To win, insurgents must cause the SOF to lose all their tickets, and for SOF to win, the insurgents must lose all their tickets. If the insurgents overrun the extraction flag, taking it, a small number of tickets are lost for SOF. The SOF can concede that point, regroup and have another extraction point. AGain, if they lose this point they can try for their third. If the insurgents overrun this finally, they win no matter how many tickets SOF has left. This would mean that if SOF destroys the caches very quickly, then the sheer volume of tickets bled out by the three flags will give a large chance at victory, meaning you cant dominate one section and then lose super quickly in the next. This would also mean that if you dont do well destroying caches, but make it to the flag round, then a successful last stand at one flag is the only hope. Overall I think this would be exiciting gameplay for both sides, as flag attacking is proven fun, and on top of that, 2 caches at once is completely boring.

Balance can be handled without too much trouble, and a lot of testing. ALthough I think this game mode would work best with new maps, old maps could certainly work here. SOF have the asset/character advantage, INS have the manpower. Tickets, hideout numbers, and cache numbers are important too! The terrain can go either way, new maps should be made for the game mode because terrain is super important for balance, but the good news is assets and manpower can change depending on terrain. Many small changes can effect balance greatly, and all options should be considered. We can find balance by testing the game with whatever feels right, seeing which team dominates, then giving either side more stuff like tickets, hideouts, or apaches to change the balance back to 50/50. Anyways, i'll go into detail of what kits could look like for SOF later, but ill list some things. SOF will have body armour, lots of scopes with back up red dots, suppressors, lots of C4, lots of ropes, lots of grenades, tighter deviation settings as they are highly trained, all kits with pistols rather than shovels, more sprint, more bandages per kit, quicker reload times, quicker sight in times, faster movement while sighted, more arty, night time operations with NVGs, more SOFLAMS, more JDAMS, along with other appropriate, but not super overpowered buffs, which can all be adjusted as needed. Assets that SOF would have would be air assets such as scout helicopters, attack helicopters, close air support jets, and unique ground vehicles such as the ATV which drops a light supply crate for kits in the field, and SOF light transport with cool camo nets, lots of ammo in the back, door guns, and scopes on the big gun mounts. Light vehicles would work as described earlier, and air assets as such. MAps should be developed with a small airbase with a big enough DoD in the farthest corner of the map for the air assets if there are any. Ideally as far removed from the map as possible. These bases are not for infantry to spawn on, and the DoD should not allow for that, as this does not simulate the way SOF are intended to operate. Insurgent assets would include all current insurgent tools, ideally with AAA techis added if attack helicopters and/or jets are in the map. The other main point of balance would be the number discrepancy. Personally I think 18 SOF vs 46 insurgent to SOF is ideal. Even with 2 caches at once the INS should still outnumber the SOF, but not in overwhelming numbers. Ideally the balanced game has SOF fight outnumbered but with the perfect amount of assets, gear, and buffs to make it such that the side with the most skill wins every time.

Is this the kind of thing you had in mind OP? I think it would be kind of cool. It probably has a lot of flaws, and would require testing but I think could work. A pre-alpha wouldnt require much in the way of work outside the load of coding you would have to do to make this new game type. Make the game mode for karbala, change karbala to night time, give US army NVGs, give them some buffs like tighter deviation, give them an apache with only guns, and some rockets, give the specialist some C4, and change all US army weapon sounds to a suppressed version, other than the SAW which would have a red dot. That could work for testing just preliminarily.

Im kinda hijacking this thread with my ideas but OP, is what I described kind of what you thought you wanted? The problem with developing a game is that it's a game. It must be balanced and it must be fun for all players. So thats what im trying to figure out here

Truism wrote:I'd actually take it further and make it a worst case scenario 6 vs 58 with outdated air assets where SF team is just doing E&E and needs to make it from one side of the map to an exfil on the other. No respawns for the SF team ofc. Much simpler to code IMO.

kinda cool idea, but again, what do the insurgents even do? i mean the game would last like 10 minutes, and like 90% of the players would see no action at all. Might be a cool scenario event, but that's about it.

Truism wrote:The core concept is actually a really sound one, its also well in the realms of ***. The implementation has a lot of issues, most notably that 50 ins spread between 4 caches against 12 guys makes for a numerically even fight at the point of friction, which isn't the intention of a gameplay mode where the core concept is numbers vs quality.

I'd actually take it further and make it a worst case scenario 6 vs 58 with outdated air assets where SF team is just doing E&E and needs to make it from one side of the map to an exfil on the other. No respawns for the SF team ofc. Much simpler to code IMO.

Yeah, if this ever gets implemented though, it'll be after v1.0 so we'll have 100 player servers. So it'll probably be more like 20 vs 80. So then if Insurgents cover all of the caches evenly and Special Forces attacks one in full force, they'll have a 20 vs 20 fight. Insurgents might be overwhelmed, but by that time reinforcements from the other three caches could be inbound to attack and surround the Special Forces team. I think it all depends on what strategies the factions take.

40mmrain wrote:Is this the kind of thing you had in mind OP?

Holy shit dude. Let me wrap my head around the essay you just wrote

But yeah. I think I'd like it. I don't know if we'd use the same intel mechanic that is in currently in the INS game mode though. Because, if SOF is going in somewhere, wouldn't they know what they're looking for and where it is? Only other adjustment I can think of right now is that the numbers will be different after v1.0. 100 players instead of 64.

But you basically hit the nail on the head. We'd need testing to perfect everything and until we do some testing, we can throw ideas around all day but nothing solid will come from it.

yeah I meant that no intel exists, and the SOF guys know where all the caches are as soon as they spawn or at least within 5 minutes of it.

honestly im pretty excited by this idea we've had. Would any devs be interested in this?

I know there's some coding that exists for NVGs in BF2, can they be put in PR with out much trouble?

I would imagine the NVG's would just be a matter of putting them in the files for PR. Not sure though.

I hope someone else is interested in this game mode. Once every few weeks I get inspired and try to learn Python coding. I look at a tutorial and start reading the introduction and I just derp everywhere. I don't get it. I understand electronics/computers/software very well. But once it comes to programming in any form, I have the IQ of a rock.

NVGs are not going to happen.
There are some unfixable shader problems when it comes to certain graphic cards.

Couldn't we use the thermals scope that the tanks use?

Much easier idea why not making a map called special operations or something including all the stuff mentioned in the post.

We'd have to code the destruction of the cache to spawn the flags and then code the capture of the flags as the end of the game. I don't think you can do that with just a map. I believe you'd need a new game mode. I'm not "certified" to speak on any of this though. Just theorizing.

This is a really cool idea, BLUFOR gets alot of toys, eg. pistols can replace the entrenchment tool which won't be needed thus creating more firepower; latest weapon technology which is yet to be introduced in the regular armies, such as the M468, HK416/17, etc as alternative weapons; an additional field dressing to mimic their better first aid training compared to regular soldiers. Since this game type is highly dependant on the Officer, I would go as far to recommend not having incendiary on anything but Officer and Combat Engineer, so that would mean another free slot for equipment.

As for the insurgents, they get their usual stuff, but I personally would limit the medics quite drastically, so a cache assault cannot be stalled out for too long. However, with some vehicles the insurgent team might be able to create their own make shift QRF.

So cool. It will be like Battlefield: Special Forces except... well it's tactics and team-work and organized, polished and stuff. Call it PR: Special Forces Expansion