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Can anyone ( read that as RDEV ) explain to me why the cap radius of flags is so small?
It makes no sense to me at all. From a defensive point of view you have absolutely no option of where to defend from other than to huddle around a tiny area waiting for wave upon wave of enemies who have built a wall of rallies around you to come and wipe you out.

There is already an almost complete lack of desire to defend a flag/objective as it is and I feel that this just compounds it more.
There is no need to control a sector/grid, just drop rallies and send wave after wave of troops in until all opponents are dead then rinse and repeat.

In 1.0 I've yet to see any creative use of fob assets being used. All I've seen so far is zerg rush after zerg rush leading to extremely boring games.

If you take away all the added effects both audio and visual, which I admit are very good from the argument then all you are left with in my view is very poor and repetitive boring gameplay.


So please consider making the cap radii much larger than it currently is to at least allow the game play to be spread out a bit more than what we currently have, and to allow for some thought to be added as to what you can do rather than just charge the next flag.

Some flags could use a larger cap radius. So you have to defend an area and not only a small house or compound especially on the larger maps. The acutal situation mght be a change that goes hand in hand with the new RP system.

While I agree that some flags need a bit more tuning I will explain the main reasoning behind that change.

Especially with the larger playeramount we felt that large radii resulted in flag stalemates far too often.
I totally remember these 100p rounds on fools road where you had no idea why you were't capping and the flag didn't move up to an hour.

So the basic idea was to make flags smaller and more focused on objectives.
There are still some "area control" flags but we tried to focus on areas that make actually sense to defend/attack.
This should also make it more obvious if you're capping or not and increase the dynamic of the game.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the intention to make flags super small, just making the radius a bit more logical.
So if the flag is a large palace building you shouldn't be able to cap from outside the walls. You should need to clear the building from the enemies to "achieve control".

[R-DEV]BloodyDeed wrote:While I agree that some flags need a bit more tuning I will explain the main reasoning behind that change.

Especially with the larger playeramount we felt that large radii resulted in flag stalemates far too often.
I totally remember these 100p rounds on fools road where you had no idea why you were't capping and the flag didn't move up to an hour.

So the basic idea was to make flags smaller and more focused on objectives.
There are still some "area control" flags but we tried to focus on areas that make actually sense to defend/attack.
This should also make it more obvious if you're capping or not and increase the dynamic of the game.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the intention to make flags super small, just making the radius a bit more logical.
So if the flag is a large palace building you shouldn't be able to cap from outside the walls. You should need to clear the building from the enemies to "achieve control".

Thanks for the swift reply mate. I understand the logic of your explanation but I feel in practice it doesn't work very well. In some situations as I stated before you have no choice at all regarding where to defend from, and from an attackers point of view you have no need to find your enemy because you just have to get to the really small circle ( some as small as 50mts) and they have to be there. I just feel that it takes any kind of tactical thought out of the equation and as defenders you have to hang on for dear life just to delay the inevitable, which in these cases will come sooner rather than later.

I have to say, and this is no reflection of the hard work that you have put in, that the game play itself feels like it's taken a step backwards. Every round on 1.0 that I've played so far has been the same. The massive blue blob just pushing forwards in a straight line without pause, and when you have taken the first flag from your opponent the push just continues with little to no resistance and the rounds are frustratingly quick and unless you are joining in with the zerg blob, quite boring.

This has also resulted in large swathes of the map being unused, especially I believe as a direct result of the small cap radius. Now I'm not naive enough to think that this will solve everything but as someone who defends a lot ( mainly because others selfishly wont ) I'm left with very little to play with in terms of creating an effective defence.


Maybe I'm alone in thinking that I'd rather have an exciting stalemate than round after round of continuous, predictable, stale, repetitive game play, but I'd like to think otherwise.
I often feel that the people who complain the loudest and the most about this and that are also the ones that are the most selfish. Always wanting things changed for personal reasons rather than for the sake of the whole. Now I understand the irony of what I have just said, but I defend in game for unselfish reasons and would like a little thought spared for those few of us who try and play the game in that way.

Both OP and Bloody have good points here imo.

But just to clarify (or widen the argument a bit):

No one tells you to defend a flag from within cap range!
If you have a full 8 man squad on the defense of a 50 m flag you simply SHOULD NOT put all of them on the flag!

This "tactic" of defending is only the lowest form of defense and often preferred by nubs tbh. Use communication and a good tactical analysis and you can often have your support soldiers a bit away, cover certain angles, etc.

Just look at the mainbases, people are unable play the game. Right now so it's pretty hard to draw conclusions, IMO.

I honestly experienced quite the opposite.
Apart from the incredibly hard first flag on Ramiel AAS I had pretty good experiences with the new system.

Keep in mind Piepie also reworked the python logic behind the capping speed, so they behave different now.

I have the feeling other changes like RPs and deviation affect the whole AAS system even more than the flags itself.

smiley wrote:Thanks for the swift reply mate. I understand the logic of your explanation but I feel in practice it doesn't work very well. In some situations as I stated before you have no choice at all regarding where to defend from, and from an attackers point of view you have no need to find your enemy because you just have to get to the really small circle ( some as small as 50mts) and they have to be there. I just feel that it takes any kind of tactical thought out of the equation and as defenders you have to hang on for dear life just to delay the inevitable, which in these cases will come sooner rather than later.

I agree partially though but I feel that's more a map issue. That's because some flags just don't offer enough buildings.
But if there is only one building and we really need a flag there I think it's a better choice to limit that flag to that building instead of making it a huge "area control flag".

I still think it's a correct step in the right direction, it's just some maps havn't really adapted to it yet.
But as Kilo stated correctly, you don't have to defend from within the flag range. There are some flags where an outside position is the far better choice and you'll be more effective if you make sure nobody slips through.

That whole thing is quite hard to balance. We have an incredibly large amount of maps with tons of completely differend flags. To find a system that works for all maps is kinda hard and to get it on all maps correctly right in the beginning is even harder.
Ideally there should be a little bit of both in my opinion. Some very "objective" focused flags and other "area control flags".

I understand completely what you and Jules are saying but I think that you are over simplifying your replies. Whilst I appreciate your advice I have to say that I have been playing the mod regularly for about 5-6 years now and without trying to sound rude simply telling me to defend perimeters doesn't really help with what I've been talking about, as stating the obvious isn't what I feel is the problem.

Lets take Hilltop estate on Fools Road as an example. The cap radius for that flag is between 50-65 mts This doesn't even include the whole compound let alone the hill so it makes no sense to me to have such a small radius. I get the whole stalemate thing and I also get the whole perimeter defence thing,really I do, but how does it make sense to claim to control Hilltop Estate as the game tells you, when in reality you have only gained control of one building?

So back to the map specific thing. Yes I agree that most things that arise are map specific I just feel that you have gone to far the other way in a bid to make the game flow. A strategic position is only valuable to those that hold it regardless of whether a squad is still inside a building and it's being capped from the outside or not. You either control the position or you don't and to try and define that by making the cap radius smaller doesn't make sense to me.


I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall trying to change your minds if it's been decided that small cap radii is the way forward I just felt that it warranted further discussion and thought. This isn't and never was about me not knowing how or what to do in a situation and all about as I have said, having my options limited due to a shrinking playing field.

smiley wrote:I understand completely what you and Jules are saying but I think that you are over simplifying your replies. Whilst I appreciate your advice I have to say that I have been playing the mod regularly for about 5-6 years now and without trying to sound rude simply telling me to defend perimeters doesn't really help with what I've been talking about, as stating the obvious isn't what I feel is the problem.

I basically want to explain our reasoning behind that change, I don't wanna change the way you play.
That being said I really appreciate this thread so far, it's a very healthy discussion in my opinion.

smiley wrote: Lets take Hilltop estate on Fools Road as an example. The cap radius for that flag is between 50-65 mts This doesn't even include the whole compound let alone the hill so it makes no sense to me to have such a small radius. I get the whole stalemate thing and I also get the whole perimeter defence thing,really I do, but how does it make sense to claim to control Hilltop Estate as the game tells you, when in reality you have only gained control of one building?
.

Yes, that's an issue because of the fact that cap radii are circles. Ideally it would be the whole compound but I don't think that's possible, at least not easily.
No, it doesn't make sense to me as well. But having a large area so you can also cap from below the hill doesn't make any sense to me either.
As I said, having circles as flag radii limits us in the choice we can place them.

smiley wrote: So back to the map specific thing. Yes I agree that most things that arise are map specific I just feel that you have gone to far the other way in a bid to make the game flow. A strategic position is only valuable to those that hold it regardless of whether a squad is still inside a building and it's being capped from the outside or not. You either control the position or you don't and to try and define that by making the cap radius smaller doesn't make sense to me.

I agree on the point about the value but on the other hand I don't really see a problem in just trying to get them out of that building. Use smokes, grenades, etc...

smiley wrote: I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall trying to change your minds if it's been decided that small cap radii is the way forward I just felt that it warranted further discussion and thought. This isn't and never was about me not knowing how or what to do in a situation and all about as I have said, having my options limited due to a shrinking playing field.

My answers shouldn't mean your ideas/suggestions/feedback is completely unreasonable. As said above, I'm glad about the feedback, I'm just trying to explain why we felt that change was needed.

Yeah personally i like the idea of area control as opposed to objective control, it allows room for maneuver and in essence this allows more for tactics.

I like the direction the developers are taking, in truth the flag should be named after the area needed to control it. If it is called House objective, the flag should only be the house, so people know the house is what is needed to cap the flag. I really hated in 0.98 being in a flag, and having such a large radius, resulting in two teams sitting on it. Both selfishly sitting because they don't want to risk moving forward and dying.

This is will give clear indicators to Squad leaders on what is important within a flag. You do not have to sit in the house, but you will be able to plan a good defense on roads and routes leading to that house. Likewise the same for attacking.

I like objective control. It allows for easier control by a squad. If you don't maneuver and expand beyond the objective area in order to control the area, you put yourself at a disadvantage by having your entire squad in one building which I can take advantage of.

I understand what's being said re the 'palace' situation... But even if the cap radius is outside, if it's well enough defended within, you still need to go in and clear it to make the flag move.

Similarly, if there's no defence inside, then why shouldn't holding the perimeter secure the location? No one's going to get past the perimeter defence to go inside the building.

Heskey wrote:I understand what's being said re the 'palace' situation... But even if the cap radius is outside, if it's well enough defended within, you still need to go in and clear it to make the flag move.

Similarly, if there's no defence inside, then why shouldn't holding the perimeter secure the location? No one's going to get past the perimeter defence to go inside the building.

You're correct, it is only required to cap a flag within the target objective area. When your team is holding it, your only job is to defend it. Personally, I would rather not sit in the predictable location where a enemy is most likely to expect me. It would be much smarter and better to place units in a defensive perimeter around the target objective area and ambush attackers.

In my opinion Smiley is totally right:
The will to defend is already low. For some reasons a lot of people consider defending as boring.
This is being "combined" with the fact that a lot of squads don?t even check the map where they could be needed. And even if they do they often don?t care or communicate with others.
This will mainly end up in a cap-and-recap battle which is pretty boring after a while. Taking Fools Road as example i think it?s fun to search the forest for enemies. Bigger flag ranges offer more tactical moves etc.

Please keep flag ranges larger to keep the game and tactics more freely...

Greetz!

samebutdifferent known as Lemmy_KillMister

I agree flags do need to be smaller, but not 50m, ID say CPs ranging from 100-150 is perfect.

You can already have clusters of cappable flags so why don't you just make one objective into 2-5 flags cappable at the same time? That way an objective can take up a larger area while it can be capped incrementally.

Tartantyco wrote:You can already have clusters of cappable flags so why don't you just make one objective into 2-5 flags cappable at the same time? That way an objective can take up a larger area while it can be capped incrementally.

That sounds like it would be too much like CTF or Domination from Unreal Tournament.

I'd just prefer if flags were actually structures than just open land. It would be a lot more fun to have to assault and secure buildings than open terrain.

Small flags over enter-able compounds and buildings are a lot better than large flags resulting in stalemates.