Project Reality Forums

Hey guys,

ever since 1.0 I noticed several things that really disturbed me about PR's audio design. The audio went from balanced and powerfull/kicking to loud, noisy, distorted and LOOUD. I do not like that. Audio is at least 50% of the game experience, as an audio guy you gotta do much more than deliver a bunch of audio samples. You are half a game designer, a very responsible position.

Since I have been sick for two weeks I had a lot of time to think about it and I really am worried about where this is going.

I am also worried about how the DEVs treat the topic.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f252-p ... pping.html

This has been locked by a simple "The sounds are fine. Sorry you feel different about it." but they are NOT! Realistic does not mean LOUD. What is realistic anyways, when youre sitting, gaming with your headset/speakers? You have to look beyond that, you have to look beyond "loud".

Take a look at these samples. One is currently in PR, it is the M4. The other one is "fixed" by me, I added a punch and mechanics (reciever snapping captured from BF3 since I lack weapon recording libraries worth $$$$$).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cowfp54bfzach ... ference.7z

Notice how the low end punch makes you think/feel you have a rifle kick your shoulder and the snap of the mechanics makes you realize your ear is close to the gun. None of that is present in the original sample.

I have made some videos on this topic and I want to share them with you. Maybe some of you guys will agree with me.

What does "it sounds distorted/clipping" and Loudness Wars:


Gun sounds, their sub parts and how to make better ones:


Why turn stuff down in order to let other sound through?



All opinions are welcome although I have to say that I will take much of it with a grain of salt since many of you guys have never heard or rather FELT a gun kick into your shoulder and/or fire close to you and therefore must rely on crappy youtube/lifeleak videos. Nevertheless you know what it's like to "feel its right..." in all of it's variations so of course your opinion is of high value.


Thank you for your attention.

Well, the dev's will probably see this as brash. I think maybe with your experience you could offer to help with the sound design. If you don't have the ability to develop the game maybe you could test things for future releases.

Truth is sounds are fine for most but for the discerning ear they may lack.

To play devil's advocate, people will correct me where I'm wrong, but from I.T. perspective Audio can be one of the biggest kicks to online performance. Thousands of rounds fired per game and each is assessed for how far it is from you, then the algorithm has to figure out what volume to give each shot, then figure out if it was headed your way and decide how loud the snap over your head needs to be.... On and on this process goes thousands of times and that's only one element the Server has to track. There are thousands of processes happening and audio has to take a back seat... More like balance out work load.

If you have a way of improving the quality without making the Server's take a hit then present that idea professionally to some of the developers in private, but by all means do not call them out in public because you don't like the direction its headed. Never just complain, always find a way to help!

That's just my opinion.

Thanks sir, this is some serious shit, finally someone who loves and understand audio, more like this!

Mumble does not cover this at all, when I hear people whispering 50m away, sir.

One of the things that I think you're hinting at is something that can't be fixed. You see, when you fire a gun, energy is dispersed in several ways. Sound is just one, vibration is another. There is a mechanical aspect to firing a gun and it comes across as a lower more powerful "sound." This is due to the bones in our body absorbing that vibration and it travels up our bodies and to our ear drums. You can not replicate that without the mechanical feel. You can simulate it with sound but it will never be the same.

Audiophile'ist (not sure what you call yourself!) are kind of a rare breed, and admit it... hard to please! That's not an insult just understand that they won't have crazy good sample rates on professionally recorded audio files. Its not reasonable to expect that level of audio detail from people who give you a free sample of their efforts. This game is not about one aspect, its great because of the sum of its parts. If you took any part of this game and looked at it under a microscope you could publish books on issues... Every game is like that.

Megagoth1702 wrote:Hey guys,

ever since 1.0 I noticed several things that really disturbed me about PR's audio design. The audio went from balanced and powerfull/kicking to loud, noisy, distorted and LOOUD. I do not like that. Audio is at least 50% of the game experience, as an audio guy you gotta do much more than deliver a bunch of audio samples. You are half a game designer, a very responsible position.

Since I have been sick for two weeks I had a lot of time to think about it and I really am worried about where this is going.

I am also worried about how the DEVs treat the topic.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f252-p ... pping.html

This has been locked by a simple "sounds are fine" but they are NOT! Realistic does not mean LOUD. What is realistic anyways, when youre sitting, gaming with your headset/speakers? You have to look beyond that, you have to look beyond "loud".

Take a look at these samples. One is currently in PR, it is the M4. The other one is "fixed" by me, I added a punch and mechanics (reciever snapping captured from BF3 since I lack weapon recording libraries worth $$$$$).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cowfp54bfzach ... ference.7z

Notice how the low end punch makes you think/feel you have a rifle kick your shoulder and the snap of the mechanics makes you realize your ear is close to the gun. None of that is present in the original sample.

I have made some videos on this topic and I want to share them with you. Maybe some of you guys will agree with me.

What does "it sounds distorted/clipping" and Loudness Wars:


Gun sounds, their sub parts and how to make better ones:



All opinions are welcome although I have to say that I will take much of it with a grain of salt since many of you guys have never heard or rather FELT a gun kick into your shoulder and/or fire close to you and therefore must rely on crappy youtube/lifeleak videos. Nevertheless you know what it's like to "feel its right..." in all of it's variations so of course your opinion is of high value.


Thank you for your attention.

very good info i wish you could join the devs maybe you can help out with improving this issue you are referring to

Very interesting videos!

I myself am an audio enthusiast with some decent headphone and amps. I can easily relate to the loudness issue. Bad sources or bad equipment make you want to turn up the volume because you feel like it's going to add to the sound... but it doesn't. Good sources on good equipment will never make you do that. Also, with good equipment (speakers/ headphones) you can tell if the recording (source) is good quality or not very easily based just on that.

Loved what you did with the sample. Punch, body, mechanics- makes sense and sound good, a lot better than the original one. Good stuff.

Fighting17 wrote:Well, the dev's will probably see this as brash. [...]
If you have a way of improving the quality without making the Server's take a hit then present that idea professionally to some of the developers in private, but by all means do not call them out in public because you don't like the direction its headed. Never just complain, always find a way to help!

That's just my opinion.

Brash? I am direct and english is not my native language so I might sound a bit harsh but believe me I only want the best for PR and my history with recording music instruments, vocals, mixing and what not has taught me a few "no-nos" which are clearly done here for the 1p weapon shots. The majority the algorimths are taken care of by DICE already, the PR team added and changed a lot of them in order to get more distance and a shit ton of volume tweaks have been done by jaymz and anders, props for that. It is an incredible amount of work, configs are a pain in the ***.

Raklodder wrote:Thanks sir, this is some serious shit, finally someone who loves and understand audio, more like this!

Mumble does not cover this at all, when I hear people whispering 50m away, sir.

I actually do not have any problem with mumble at all. I love it's place in the game.

Fighting17 wrote:One of the things that I think you're hinting at is something that can't be fixed. You see, when you fire a gun, energy is dispersed in several ways. Sound is just one, vibration is another. There is a mechanical aspect to firing a gun and it comes across as a lower more powerful "sound." This is due to the bones in our body absorbing that vibration and it travels up our bodies and to our ear drums. You can not replicate that without the mechanical feel. You can simulate it with sound but it will never be the same.

Audiophile'ist (not sure what you call yourself!) are kind of a rare breed, and admit it... hard to please! That's not an insult just understand that they won't have crazy good sample rates on professionally recorded audio files. Its not reasonable to expect that level of audio detail from people who give you a free sample of their efforts. This game is not about one aspect, its great because of the sum of its parts. If you took any part of this game and looked at it under a microscope you could publish books on issues... Every game is like that.

That feel you describe can be singnalized to the player by low end punch. Listen to the samples I provided, doesn't the punchy one just feel better? Low end for the human ear is always reserved to "heavy stuff" such as explosions, shocks, movement etc. Listen to the great recordings of the land rover here. Don't you think that the low end sounds natural and gives you a real feel for what you are sitting in?

Project Reality Sound Recording Trip - Vehicle Engine Sounds Demonstration 24/96 - YouTube

Audiophile? I got that from DICE.

Click.

High quality samples? I know anders spent a great amount of money on professionally recorded samples. He got the sources. But I guess redoing all PR sounds in 3 months is just too much work. I respect that and I try to give my honest opinion here. We PMd a few and he understands. I just wanted to put this out to the community as well.

SIDEKILL3R wrote:very good info i wish you could join the devs maybe you can help out with improving this issue you are referring to

I don't know if the DEVs have place for someone who can offer 1 day per week for working on audio. First of all I want to make a ton of sounds, make them work in the MOD and then present them in a video to anders as a show off of my own vision of sound and get his and the DEV's opinion on it.

Prevtzer wrote:Very interesting videos!

I myself am an audio enthusiast with some decent headphone and amps. I can easily relate to the loudness issue. Bad sources or bad equipment make you want to turn up the volume because you feel like it's going to add to the sound... but it doesn't. Good sources on good equipment will never make you do that. Also, with good equipment (speakers/ headphones) you can tell if the recording (source) is good quality or not very easily based just on that.

Loved what you did with the sample. Punch, body, mechanics- makes sense and sound good, a lot better than the original one. Good stuff.

Words like this make my heart melt my man. Thank you.

Awesome video! Learned a **** load about audio quality. After listening to this video I have to agree with your view. At the start I preferred the distorted sample, but after you explained what happens to the audio quality and actually showed it side by side and all the detail that was lost I was forced to agree with you!

Agree with you 100%!

Raklodder wrote:Mumble does not cover this at all, when I hear people whispering 50m away, sir.

Megagoth1702 wrote:I actually do not have any problem with mumble at all. I love it's place in the game.

It's not that I don't like Mumble, or what good features it does add to PR, only that there's room for improvement, sir.

So what I am gathering (am I correct?) We should turn down all the other game volumes to a lower level, but keep the gun shots at a normal level. This would force the user to turn up their volume to hear the other game volumes, but when gunshots go off you still get the definition and loudness?

Raklodder wrote:It's not that I don't like Mumble, or what good features it does add to PR, only that there's room for improvement, sir.

I really do not see any, besides somehow managing to get a radio like sound when using "radio" functions. But IMHO it's fine as it is. This is not ACRE but it works really good for PR.

risegold8929 wrote:So what I am gathering (am I correct?) We should turn down all the other game volumes to a lower level, but keep the gun shots at a normal level. This would force the user to turn up their volume to hear the other game volumes, but when gunshots go off you still get the definition and loudness?

Since I am still at home for 1.5 days I will make a video explaining what I mean. It will be up in 20min.

Up.

The problem here is that the dynamic range of the real world is far greater than can be safely reproduced in a gamer's headphones. The ideal solution would be to model threshold shift (a temporary decrease in sensitivity of one's hearing):

- Give each sound a value that reflects its real-world SPL
- Set a baseline where footsteps, idling engines, etc are at a comfortable and realistic level
- Shift that baseline relative to other sounds that are occurring nearby, so that the loudest sound never exceeds 0dB, similar to "ducking"

Using the scenario in your last video, the effect would be:

- Engine idle at normal/natural level.
- When rifle is fired, engine sound is ducked so as to be nearly inaudible.
- When cannon is fired, all sounds are ducked so that the engine is inaudible and the rifle is just below the cannon.
- Rise time (return to normal hearing) would be dependent upon the relative volume of the latest and loudest sound. For example, louder transient sounds such as cannon fire/explosions/etc would incur a longer rise time, while rifle fire from nearby squad members would incur a much shorter "rise" time.

Of course, I doubt the BF2 engine could handle this, and the number of calculations alone are likely prohibitive, so this is all just a pipe dream.

I think you are on the right track, but this really needs to be handled with care. Following this conversation with great interest.

Megagoth1702 wrote:Hey guys,

ever since 1.0 I noticed several things that really disturbed me about PR's audio design. The audio went from balanced and powerfull/kicking to loud, noisy, distorted and LOOUD. I do not like that. Audio is at least 50% of the game experience, as an audio guy you gotta do much more than deliver a bunch of audio samples. You are half a game designer, a very responsible position.

Since I have been sick for two weeks I had a lot of time to think about it and I really am worried about where this is going.

I am also worried about how the DEVs treat the topic.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f252-p ... pping.html

This has been locked by a simple "The sounds are fine. Sorry you feel different about it." but they are NOT! Realistic does not mean LOUD. What is realistic anyways, when youre sitting, gaming with your headset/speakers? You have to look beyond that, you have to look beyond "loud".

Take a look at these samples. One is currently in PR, it is the M4. The other one is "fixed" by me, I added a punch and mechanics (reciever snapping captured from BF3 since I lack weapon recording libraries worth $$$$$).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cowfp54bfzach ... ference.7z

Notice how the low end punch makes you think/feel you have a rifle kick your shoulder and the snap of the mechanics makes you realize your ear is close to the gun. None of that is present in the original sample.

I have made some videos on this topic and I want to share them with you. Maybe some of you guys will agree with me.

What does "it sounds distorted/clipping" and Loudness Wars:


Gun sounds, their sub parts and how to make better ones:


Why turn stuff down in order to let other sound through?



All opinions are welcome although I have to say that I will take much of it with a grain of salt since many of you guys have never heard or rather FELT a gun kick into your shoulder and/or fire close to you and therefore must rely on crappy youtube/lifeleak videos. Nevertheless you know what it's like to "feel its right..." in all of it's variations so of course your opinion is of high value.


Thank you for your attention.

I agree with you, especially on the G3, it sounds grainy and just plain distorted. The 1.0 sounds seem to be more distorted, perhaps you with the aid of other audiophiles around the forums could create a soundmod. While you audiophiles are muchmore sensitive to these changes, I can still notice quite a bit of difference and prefer the .98 gun sounds, the rest of 1.0's sounds are much improved TBH.

I read the title different.
But the devs will say. "HELP US OUT"
But I like the sounds

You explained that the physical sensation of firing rifles and such cannot be replicated accurately in game and should be manifested with the use of punchier dynamics, but small arms don't actually provide deeply percussive firing, they provide painfully sharp cracks, and therein is the problem with your case. over-design is a byproduct of editing for dramatic effect, aurally or visually, unnatural to the application it is for and causing sensory fatigue because of it. because, while greater dynamic range and more importantly, dramatic effect, is mimicked when making punchier dynamics to break the loudness problem, the greater low end impact in small arms fire where it does not belong causes fatigue through the prolonged repetition of this sound in game, so that your redesign has left the sphere of practicality. BF3 seems designed to impress certain lads and lasses that need impressing for brief pleasure.

audiophiles recommend one or two hour sessions with over designed headphones like bassy Beyers or sibilant Grados because of fatigue caused by that sort of aural protuberance, but we're playing at least 3 hours each time. i think we all understand the emotional drama of firing a round, but if you asked me to fire my Mosin Nagant for three hours or more every day i'd tell you to take a hike and take another sip of my latte.

in my opinion the sounds are the best in this release, i dont care if they are lealistic as long as it sounds good. and when it sounds good for me and i am happy to just shoot my gun because i want to hear the awesome sound then someone did his job right (the question is also how real can your earplugs really play the sound of a huge real battle where your ears maybe get demaged when u dont get ear protection /its not posssible)


and btw i know how real weapons feel and sound - i was also in the army. but in pr they sound better XD

This is probably my favorite thread this year.

I've always felt sorry that we have such amazing sounds, but that one simple thing is wrong. It is so sad that sometimes your footsteps are louder than helicopter flying over your head.

We have such amazing sounds, but loudness needs to get fixed to for players to get that feeling. That was successful with APC's since 1.0 release, it feels so amazing when you hear that 30 mm cannon just braking everything apart, but some of the things should be reworked.

I just hope this guy joins DEV team.

Amazing videos, and I hope DEVs take a look at them

I know what mega talks about. Aint hard to understand, but I've just worked from 0.9 type of settings and I will maybe consider putting everything down, exept some vehicle engines, explosions and weapon fire sounds. Then the community will have to raise their volume from what they (probably) have now atleast 20% to really feel the volume changes for weapon fire.

But this work will take seriously months to get right. Just so you know. And I dont like BF3 type of sounds. I like the snappy ones for "this game". The BF3 ones are too soft for me and for weapon 3p fire sounds in BF2 engine they'll get muffled very fast, thats why I've made them sharp. But they're not clipping as Prevster says. This is intentionally and there is bass and pressure in the shots. Atleast in my system and headphones. This is just one way I wanted PR to sound. And PR 0.9 hun shots was even sharper and had less bass.

So, this is up to me plain and simple.
Ive also shot real weapons and I know exavctly what Mega means. But it affects so much else in this game to replicate the true punch in the heart of a real rifle. Even a 5.56mm round shook my heart at every shot.

But as I said. I may have a look in the future in the sound volume levels to FORCE players to raise their volumes. And I hope their ears fall off in the end. Damn them if the say the footstep sounds are low again.

You also have to understand that this soundengine doesnt work like BF3s. They have a system that just lowers all other sounds when you fire a weapon, an explosion (close up or far away) goes off etc. This can't be done in PR even if I wish.

I've worked to make the best out of the sound experience in PR for more than 1 year now. Believe me when I say I have had full control over the sounds.

If I would call weapon fire punchy I would have had an M4 sound like this to best fit the PR experience. These sounds are recording of a real M4.
Every type of mic can make a weapon shot sound different. It's just how you want them to sound like later on in the game. Therefore, youtube vid can never ever replicate what a real gunshot sounds like. Ofc you have earplugs in and you'd have to make something inbetween.
Best result if when you as a spectator would stand 3 meters away from a real life weapon fire. Not up close, cause that sound would never work to replicate.

These are some examples that PR would sound like if you now raise your volume 10-20% and feel the pressure.

M4 1st person:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/110 ... est_m4.wav

M4 3p (close up):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/110 ... _m4_3p.wav

[quote=""'[508th_PIR"] Grey;1932812']The problem here is that the dynamic range of the real world is far greater than can be safely reproduced in a gamer's headphones. [...][/quote]
Yes, without that dynamic range audio system like in BC2, BF3, BF4 we are not able to effectively range our volumes. So we are forced to work with the upper half of the range we are given.
[quote="BearVsGeologist""]You explained that the physical sensation of firing rifles and such cannot be replicated accurately in game and should be manifested with the use of punchier dynamics, but small arms don't actually provide deeply percussive firing, they provide painfully sharp cracks[...][/quote]
Cracks - which start with a low end pop. Always. I have a feeling that you did not watch the videos. At least watch this and tell me again there is no low end.
https://vimeo.com/20869893

I don't mean we should bass-up all weapons but a little short punch in the beginning would help out a lot combined with everything BEHIND the punch being turned town a notch. I explained that in the 2.nd video.

spirit03 wrote:This is probably my favorite thread this year.

I've always felt sorry that we have such amazing sounds, but that one simple thing is wrong. It is so sad that sometimes your footsteps are louder than helicopter flying over your head.

We gonna have to deal with that. Either footsteps get made quiter but then people will complain about not being able to hear knife ninjas sneaking up on them. But then again maybe the ambient sound is too loud? Or there is a chopper overhead? Of course you won't hear footsteps then.

'[R-DEV wrote:-=anders=-;1932956']I know what mega talks about. [...]

Thanks anders, I knew you'd understand. I can help out wherever I can. 1 day a week on the weekend, lol.

I have some questions:

BF3 too soft -> because not distorted? What is soft about them? If you crank up the volume in BF3 the sound on "Home Cinema" is nowhere near soft. And it does not tear your ears apart because it barely has any distorted samples in it.

Whats your system & headphones?

Punch in weapons muffled over distance-> why not only in 1st person then? 3rd person can sound different , this is not arma2 bullshit, and also not have the mechanics very present because you cant hear them at distance anyway.

You tried to make the best experience -> but what was wrong with it? I really love your distant stuff but what was wrong with the close stuff that you had to change?

Best experience for me and the team and apparently at every server Ive played on people have told me they love what Ive done. Your ears may want something else similar to what bf3 sounds like. I didnt. But I still see your points regarding punch. But for me the bf3 punch has too soft base.