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Wanted to make a separate Khamisiyah thread for the alternative layout rather than confuse the main thread trying to discuss both versions.

The Alternative layout is far too unbalanced in favor of the US currently. The MEC's AAVs are no match against the US A-10s. If the pilots are at least half-competent there is practically nothing the AAVs can do to stop them, which results in the MEC's tank superiority being practically worthless since they are usually destroyed before the tanks from each side even meet in combat.

A layout where US has air and MEC doesn't is interesting, but the current implementation of it isn't working. The A-10s need to be swapped with another air asset that is not so effective and immune to AA fire. Replacing the 2 A-10s with an Apache and 2nd Kiowa would be far better balanced. This still favors the US when the air superiority is used without the map just becoming a massacre of the MEC forces.

More than 1 BTR needs to be spawned at the start as well.

I'd also give the MEC 2 transport helis for logistics, as the supply trucks are simply too easy to be killed by US air assets, and allows the US Blackhawks to easily push before the MEC has a chance to set up any reasonable amount of defense on the map. The size and sluggishness of the Cows would make them very vulnerable to the US Apache and Kiowas, making their use dangerous. Risk vs Reward is an integral part of PR.

Thanks. Asymmetrical layouts are always tough to get right the first time... and obviously I'll need more feedback and more people trying the layer more than just once and making up their mind about it. The goal was to simulate the Iraq war, where the US had air superiority but the "MEC" had lots of tanks and AA. You didn't mention in your post that the MEC start with FIVE tanks (and not just the BTR). That's a lot of armor. I think teams need to be ready to switch gears mentally to play how their faction was designed to play, instead of the regular 1 jet for 1 jet, 2 tanks for 2 tanks, etc. that we're used to on normal layers.

Give it some time and continue to give me your feedback. I am open to changing it but can't base it on just one or two play-throughs.

Thanks

I've played this layout once in the A-10 on the US side, I was able to rack up kills , but I also lost two jets in 20 minutes. The MEC team had their two AAVs along with a FOB AA near all of their armour and I lost the first a10 from an unspotted AAV and me being cocky, the second just on a gun run. The reduction in laser guided weapons gives the MEC a chance to kill the A-10, and with the new maverick damage there is a good chance the missile won't kill its target. I had to shoot 2 at an AA mtlb to kill it, and that was with a good lase. This was also up against an organized MEC team that obviously dedicated a lot into AA and staying together, but I was still able to come out even on tickets, and get 25 kills in my short time up before I decided to leave the planes on the ground because of their heavy and continued AA.

I think the mode would be good for an organized match, but I'm not sure if its suited for public game play where that level of organization and discipline to man AA can sometimes be hard to find. I haven't really played it enough to know for sure though.

I hope you read this as constructive criticism and not bitching

5 mec tanks and a lot of quad cannons is good if they are being operated, but in a public game it is very rare to see so many tanks being used on 1 team at the same time. At best you would have 4 tanks being used which equals one full squad, and the last tank would be "locked" by that squad since duplicate squads are rarely allowed on any server.

The 4 quad cannons would be destroyed by mortars or the Kiowa or even one of the 2 a10's rather quickly because they are in a fixed position. So they are only briefly useful, and why not make them re-spawn within 20 min or so instead of not at all?

Also it is rare to see 2 MEC AAV's being operated fully by 4 players which is what your going to need if you want to take out just 1 jet or kiowa since the UAV is so powerful these days.

Id say without the UAV the map would almost be balanced but with it all balance goes out the window with a US commander and some decent CAS pilots.

To all fairness I have only played the alt layer two times. Both times the MEC where overrun strait away and lost all flags. Needless to say the game didn't last very long.

The mec main base needs to be much closer to the flags if they don't receive a mi-17 since that's another factor that cripple them that it takes too long to get to the fight, and when they do they just get bombed by cas.

Remove the a10's and maybe keep the Kiowa as the only CAS for US then it gets more even. In the process 1 or 2 t72 should also be removed or the US should have some added abrams.

One change in v1.0.37 that will factor in (and not announced yet) is that the CO UAV will not longer have the ability to laze targets. After much discussion and listening to forum input, we decided that CO lazing is too much power and can turn the match too easily against an unorganized team.

So, when this ALT layer no longer has CO lazing, it should help the MEC because now the US team will need to dumb bomb or have SL's get into a position to laze targets themselves.

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about CO lazing, but that's one of the reasons why I'm not making any changes to the ALT layer yet. I want to see how that change affects the matches.

Gracler wrote:
The mec main base needs to be much closer to the flags if they don't receive a mi-17 since that's another factor that cripple them that it takes too long to get to the fight, and when they do they just get bombed by cas.

I can easily add trans helos for the MEC but I was trying to keep it as accurate as possible to the Gulf War and the Iraqis weren't able to fly transports at all because the US had the air shut down and bombed most air assets while they were still parked at the airfield.

But yeah... this is an easy change and something I'll consider. Either that or I'll just add a few more spawns and logi trucks to the bunker area.

Sounds good AFsoccer . I can understand that you don't want the helicopter, so perhaps those extra spawns would do the trick.

A second BTR would do wonders for the MEC mobility.

Love the map man, your maps feel like they tell a story. Keep it up.

chrisweb89 wrote:I've played this layout once in the A-10 on the US side, I was able to rack up kills , but I also lost two jets in 20 minutes. The MEC team had their two AAVs along with a FOB AA near all of their armour and I lost the first a10 from an unspotted AAV and me being cocky, the second just on a gun run. The reduction in laser guided weapons gives the MEC a chance to kill the A-10, and with the new maverick damage there is a good chance the missile won't kill its target. I had to shoot 2 at an AA mtlb to kill it, and that was with a good lase. This was also up against an organized MEC team that obviously dedicated a lot into AA and staying together, but I was still able to come out even on tickets, and get 25 kills in my short time up before I decided to leave the planes on the ground because of their heavy and continued AA.

Yeah, I was the AAV SL that round. It was my first time really getting to play the Alt, and based on complaints I decided that it probably was extremely important to have a dedicated AAV team.

We had some trouble getting started; the CO lazes allowed you to get in and make a hit before we could react, leaving us to seeing flares behind a dustcloud and not being able to see you for a lock. Eventually, we got our shit together and I kept myself no closer than 300m from the nearest tanks, and usually the second AAV to the other side to get overlap, allowing us to cover the airspace from behind the line, and that's when I scored my first hit on you.

With CO lazes removed, this really fixes a lot of the problems with that layer. The MEC absolutely, positively needs one of the Gopher AAVs covering the armor columns, preferably two to more effectively cover flag area.



I definitely agree with giving MEC more mobility with the spawns/logis and perhaps another APC would be beneficial. I don't think a helicopter is really necessary. The layer isn't that far off from being quite good, these changes sound like we could be on the right track.

In the 1Life event, that was played on this map for the very asymmetrical balance reason, we saw no advantage, however there was atleast 2 if not 3 AAs active in the area.

Anyway, i see no issues with this layout and if CO laze is getting removed, then there is even less to worry about. Like AF said, you need 2 full squads right off the bat, running all the 5 tanks and 3 AAs together to really shine. Too bad that many times one tank squad in conjuntion with the rules prevents another one from creating...

If anything, id remove one of the jets, but its not needed as the map is defensive for the MEC.

A-10s are very vulnerable to AA compared to fighter jets with laser guided bombs. I played this layer a couple of days ago in the A-10 and we outcapped them after 10 mins, however when the enemy started using a lot of AA it was a lot harder to operate with maximum effect. So the key on this layer is to just play right with the AAs and it will be balanced.

MuffinMunchies wrote:Wanted to make a separate Khamisiyah thread for the alternative layout rather than confuse the main thread trying to discuss both versions.

The Alternative layout is far too unbalanced in favor of the US currently.

it is not IMO.


TBH, it is the best asymetrical layer ever, with having 2 common forces.

[R-DEV]AFsoccer wrote:I can easily add trans helos for the MEC but I was trying to keep it as accurate as possible to the Gulf War and the Iraqis weren't able to fly transports at all because the US had the air shut down and bombed most air assets while they were still parked at the airfield.

But yeah... this is an easy change and something I'll consider. Either that or I'll just add a few more spawns and logi trucks to the bunker area.

One of the big things, both on alternative and standard version of Khamisiyah, is that the bunker spawn is on the other side of bunkers from the logi truck (which I never really understood). You have to spawn, then take the jeep over to the logi truck. Add the 2nd spawn on the Logi truck (on both map layers) and then add a 2nd logi truck to the alternative layer inside bunker.

As for the Tanks and BTRs, I'd drop 1 tank and replace it with 1 ATGM-equipped BTR. Since having more than 4 tanks is impracticable due to squad number limitations. The 2nd BTR can then be used for both infantry or APC squads.


(Note; I have played Alternative layer 4 times total so far.)

Great comments everyone. I really appreciate the educated discussion.

MuffinMunchies wrote:One of the big things, both on alternative and standard version of Khamisiyah, is that the bunker spawn is on the other side of bunkers from the logi truck (which I never really understood). You have to spawn, then take the jeep over to the logi truck. Add the 2nd spawn on the Logi truck (on both map layers) and then add a 2nd logi truck to the alternative layer inside bunker.

As for the Tanks and BTRs, I'd drop 1 tank and replace it with 1 ATGM-equipped BTR. Since having more than 4 tanks is impracticable due to squad number limitations. The 2nd BTR can then be used for both infantry or APC squads.

(Note; I have played Alternative layer 4 times total so far.)

Yeah, the logi truck was purposely placed away from the spawn so that the MEC couldn't rush Oil Fields and build a FOB before the US even got there. As map designers we've seen tactics on maps that are questionable and not realistic, so unfortunately we have to think about all that when we set up the layers. Basically, design out the exploits. You guys still think of stuff that we couldn't possibly predict though. LOL

I like your second suggestion about replacing one tank with a BTR. Will definitely think about that one.

[R-DEV]AFsoccer wrote: Yeah, the logi truck was purposely placed away from the spawn so that the MEC couldn't rush Oil Fields and build a FOB before the US even got there. As map designers we've seen tactics on maps that are questionable and not realistic, so unfortunately we have to think about all that when we set up the layers. Basically, design out the exploits. You guys still think of stuff that we couldn't possibly predict though. LOL

You might want to replace the distance with a 2-3 minute spawn delay then, especially if a 2nd bunker spawn is created. As it is now, an organized squad can spawn in, grab the jeep, drive to the logi, and be heading to Oil in under a minute of the round starting.

I, unfortunately, ended up on the receiving end of that once (on standard layout though), when MEC rushed Oil and had a FOB up the same time we did. We got creamed, because they knew we were there, and where there. So I definitely understand the rushing concern. xD

What I must ask about this Map standard layout...


Why does the MEC not get any air assets?


NOT EVEN trans? I find it very, very stupid because of the infamous fact that the US gets helicopters, jets and everything else.


I was on CIA last night playing it. It was insane and almost stupid round.
We took their A10 out like 1 time. And the US had helicopters that wrecked us the round.


I wouldn't mind having one jet and one helicopter ffs.

You have plenty of AA
And I guess you are talking about Khamisiyah ALT?

There is already a thread about this so I merged your comment into it.

Yes, sorry. Didn't realize the ALT layout was that. When I pressed caps lock it had:
Khamisiyah AAS Standard.


I thought it was very stupid that MEC doesn't even get any trans.

I don't know if this is intentional or a bug, but on a layer where US starts with Chem Weapons and Warehouse, losing just one starts ticket bleed, even if the other is still held. Not sure if the MEC suffer the same losing one of their two city flags. If this is intentional, it makes the round too stalemate-ish. Everyone will end up defending their flags and not attacking out of fear they might lose one while doing so, and on Khamisiyah, there are so many assets you're lucky if you get more than 2 infantry squads (as you need 3 in order to defend both flags and attack as well.)