Project Reality Forums

Hello, i was suspecting the Nato tanks are reloading more fast they main cannons and i make some research in the game files and actually yes they reload fast here the lines from the AP shell

Type 98

ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 7

T72
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 7

T90
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 7

T62
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 14

M1A1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

M1A2
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

NL Leo2a6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 6

Merkava
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

Ger Leo2a6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

challenger 2
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

leclerc
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 4

CF Leo2a6
ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload 5

what is the exact reason for nato tanks reload that fast? they does not have auto loader but that make they reload fast? and the Leclerc have a auto loader but reload 4 seconds the T-62 is ok he is a Old tank and maybe the crew is not well trained for this kind of ting but the T-90 and Type 98 are actually fresh tanks they auto loader should work fast thats looks like make no difference in tank fights but for the Leclerc vs T-72 (marlin) make a big difference in to a face to face fight even if the T-72 fire first aim at the side, the Leclerc will win if he hit all the shoots from the side and also the T-72 still have one hit kill spots(i will do a bug report soon)

Most Russian/Chinese tanks have autoloaders. Rapid firing is more sustainable with autoloaders (no human loader to get tired), but manual loading, which is used by most NATO tanks, can be much faster depending on crew skill; if I remember right some Merkava crews have even been known to fire at over 20 rounds per minute for very short periods.

On a side note, the value set ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload does not represent the actual reload time on the tanks. It's actually one second longer than that.

Why has the Dutch leo a second more then the German or Canadian one?
Are they slower because the smoke to much weed?
Also a German loader once told me the fastest they got was 4 seconds, but thats only at best conditions. A autoloader should be faster at reloading, while the tank is moving and while standing a human loader should be faster.

MADsqirrel wrote:Why has the Dutch leo a second more then the German or Canadian one?
Are they slower because the smoke to much weed?

Oh definitely.

Nah, it's a bug, will be fixed.

MADsqirrel wrote:Also a German loader once told me the fastest they got was 4 seconds, but thats only at best conditions. A autoloader should be faster at reloading, while the tank is moving and while standing a human loader should be faster.

Not possible AFAIK due to engine limitations.

[R-DEV]M42 Zwilling wrote:Oh definitely.

Nah, it's a bug, will be fixed.



Not possible AFAIK due to engine limitations.

i do believe they time should be average since we cant simulate crew health or skill, the first shoot at the turret could knockout some of the crew like the loader or due the adrenaline influence on hes performance make him commit some mistake all the nato load should be 7~8 so they aren't firing at they best or they worst should simulate they on the best condition and they worst condition at the same time.

but also, why does the Leclerc as a auto loader fire THAT fast?

Roque_THE_GAMER wrote:i do believe they time should be average since we cant simulate crew health or skill, the first shoot at the turret could knockout some of the crew like the loader or due the adrenaline influence on hes performance make him commit some mistake all the nato load should be 7~8 so they aren't firing at they best or they worst should simulate they on the best condition and they worst condition at the same time.

And an autoloader couldn't jam/malfunction in the same situation? I can't see any changes happening here, especially since the T-90 and Type 98 have other advantages that NATO tanks don't have, such as gun-launched ATGMs.

Roque_THE_GAMER wrote:but also, why does the Leclerc as a auto loader fire THAT fast?

Don't know exactly, it just has an unusually fast one IRL.

[R-DEV]M42 Zwilling wrote:And an autoloader couldn't jam/malfunction in the same situation? I can't see any changes happening here, especially since the T-90 and Type 98 have other advantages that NATO tanks don't have, such as gun-launched ATGMs.



Don't know exactly, it just has an unusually fast one IRL.

is more difficult to jam since its on the strong part of the turret and is under the gun


even if he get a frontal turret shoot the cannon or the fight compartment will be damage and if the gunner die the commander can get the turret control.

ATGMS are not that good no more, still can one hit kill but if it get hit the missile will deviate and miss the missile have a slow travel and is time enough to the gunner fire at the tank and make the enemy gunner aim shake also the ATGMs got less precision from previous patch, one day i just see my ATGM fly away and hit the ground and the enemy tank kill us after see we firing.

Just make it so that ready time for ATGM is 4 seconds, then it would be balanced.
Because with a nerf to ATGM damage(clearly going to happen because it was destroying BluFor armour rather quickly), it's probably going to take 1 ATGM + 1 APFSDS to kill; most OpFor tanks have ATGM so ambush can consist of 1 ATGM + 1 APFSDS 8 seconds later while BluFor tank could only get two shots off at most.
MEC will be MEC, tank almost always free kills(assuming skill/luck are equal).

Marlin is probably the most blatant example of BluFor Bias.
If French tank crews are not total idiots they will win every time; and MEC apc do not even have ATGM.

Merkava even has both LAHAT AND faster reload time.

IIRC T-90(and T-72) autoloader can do 6.5s reload.

Wait for our MAs to reply.

They say that in a few first shots human reloader works a little faster than autoreload then human get tired, but that is on demonstrational shootings, where all the soldiers are fresh from drinking coffee five minutes ago in canteen and sleeping in comfy modern barracks.

In real war, when tank crews are marching sleeplessly for weeks in the middle of nowhere, they get tired under constant physical and psychological pressure - they are not fresh and therefore their reloading efficiency would not be perfect, let alone not all crews would have perfect reloading qualities(naturally it would vary - human factor). I believe in these conditions, even first shots of human reloader would not be any faster than autoreload.

Autoreload - is always ready, is always steady doesn't matter how many shots fired - its a machine, it doesn't need food or sleep, it doesn't need high moral, it can't get tired.

If PR can't simulate the human reloader getting tired, then I believe it would be only fair or say more balancing to make the reload timer on both sides the same. This will compensate the human reloader not getting tired at all, and autoreloader probably losing a few miliseconds on first reloads and then getting faster in compare with human.

It would be cool to have dynamic reload speed for tanks with manual reload, but it's not possible IIRC.
T-72 has auto-loader speed 7 seconds and that is what reflected in first post, T-90 has basically same auto-loader with same speed. Same goes for Type 98 as for T-72 clone. That it something I can confirm.

As for reload speed on Western tanks - I believe those are optimistic numbers, but I also trust assertions of my fellow MAs from USA and Europe.

[R-DEV]Nosferatu wrote:It would be cool to have dynamic reload speed for tanks with manual reload, but it's not possible IIRC.
T-72 has auto-loader speed 7 seconds and that is what reflected in first post, T-90 has basically same auto-loader with same speed. Same goes for Type 98 as for T-72 clone. That it something I can confirm.

As for reload speed on Western tanks - I believe those are optimistic numbers, but I also trust assertions of my fellow MAs from USA and Europe.

Then I guess we need a buff to reload time of T-90/T-72/Type 98.

'[R-DEV wrote:M42 Zwilling;2008346']Most Russian/Chinese tanks have autoloaders. Rapid firing is more sustainable with autoloaders (no human loader to get tired), but manual loading, which is used by most NATO tanks, can be much faster depending on crew skill; if I remember right some Merkava crews have even been known to fire at over 20 rounds per minute for very short periods.

On a side note, the value set ObjectTemplate.ammo.minimumTimeUntilReload does not represent the actual reload time on the tanks. It's actually one second longer than that.

Manual loaders (aka humans) will usually load shells in an MBT at a slightly slower rate "overall" than auto-loaders, but it really depends on a variety of factors. With the auto-loaders it's really going to depend on the specific vehicle and how its loading system is configured.

For example, some of the auto-loading systems I've seen will wait until the gun is fired before grabbing another round to load up, while a human loader can manually grab the next round in anticipation of reloading. On the other hand, auto-loaders don't get tired, hungry, thirsty, sore, scared, or have to take a shit. Over extended periods, a manual loader is likely to have reduced reload times.

Auto-loaders do require some PMCS though, and can always have a mechanical failure. If a human loader "breaks", such as taking injury or having some other reason for being unable to perform their job, you might have the option to swap out crew such as the TC taking over loading. But a mechanical failure/jam of an auto-loader means you're shit out of luck until it's repaired or unjammed.


As for the actual times used for PR, I thought those times were discussed a while back in a few other posts and the times being used were those determined to best match up with "IRL" counterparts as well as offering a fair balancing of the game. If that's incorrect now, and times have been adjusted outside of their desired values, then you might want to consider fixing it.

As others have stated, the game doesn't currently allow you to have dynamic load speeds based on desired factors such as crew morale, health, etc. At the same time, you're unable to simulate failures or jams in the auto-loaders. So for both, best option is to simply use their "perfect" rates of reload times.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Nosferatu;2009109']
As for reload speed on Western tanks - I believe those are optimistic numbers, but I also trust assertions of my fellow MAs from USA and Europe.[/quote]

Actually the reload time on the Western MBTs falls in the middle of the acceptable range for qualifying. On the Abrams a normal/great reloading time, by more experienced loaders, is 5 seconds, but I think the maximum to pass the loading test is 6-7 seconds. I would assume the loading times for other NATO tanks is about the same since they all now use basically the same gun (but different lengths) and the same ammo. The Challenger I know used to take longer to load (7-8 seconds) but the British have swapped some or all of their rifled cannons to the NATO cannon that is on the Leopard A6. As for the Leclerc that is the only NATO tank with its own unique cannon and auto-loader and I know very little about the whole system.

I would say that tanks can be left alone. Tanks seem very well balanced, thanks in part to the buffed armor stats on all tanks with a T in the name. Remember back in .95 or sooner when many of the "T" series tanks were easy to 1-shot kill.

Complete side note, might need a bug report, but some tanks (Abrams, Leclerc) can fire 1/4-1/2 a second sooner that the "loaded" sound indicates.

[quote="Roque_THE_GAMER""], the Leclerc will win if he hit all the shoots from the side and also the T-72 still have one hit kill spots(i will do a bug report soon)[/quote]

To be fair most tanks have a one hit kill spot, usually when you hit spots on the top of the turret. Most tanks will become disabled, or dead, with an accurate shot below the turret and above the hull.

If the numbers are middle ground then it's probably ok, since most tanks will engage from stationary in PR since we dont have FCSs and all that jazz.

We talk about actual war, pressuring situation, terrain that is far from range conditions, fatigue etc.

I suggest to add 1 sec to loading time of tanks with manual load. Except T-62, it's already too damn high.

it's already too damn high.

yeah why not

[R-DEV]Nosferatu wrote:We talk about actual war, pressuring situation, terrain that is far from range conditions, fatigue etc.

I suggest to add 1 sec to loading time of tanks with manual load. Except T-62, it's already too damn high.

T-62 needs the ATGM.

ComradeHX wrote:T-62 needs the ATGM.

so we need a T-62M version but Historically only Russia used this and that's gonna be more work tho the devs do.

Human loaders ARE faster than autoloaders in most combat scenarios. Yes, of course they get tired, but I have yet to see a scenario where the loader would load round after round as fast as he can for 2 minutes straight. That would pretty much empty the ammo carried by a tank. Usually it's a few rounds as fast as possible until a target is destroyed and the tank ceases fire.

Also what people here forget about autoloaders is that depending of the orientation of the turret, it takes longer to load the round in reality, and that the gun needs to be set to a fixed elevation so the round can be loaded, then re-aligned at the target. The best reload times for autoloaders are of course measured under ideal circumstances. Another disadvantage of autoloaders is that they are nowhere near as flexible as human loaders when it comes to firing different types of ammunition.

All of this is hard to project into the game, so overall I think the longer reload times of T-xx tanks is justified. Especially if you consider how powerful those gun-launched ATGMs are in PR, while in reality there advantage over sabots is highly debatable. If PR was to display 100% realistic combat, the T-72M would get wrecked by NATO tanks every. single. time. And likely with only one shot, too.

tankninja1 wrote:I would assume the loading times for other NATO tanks is about the same since they all now use basically the same gun (but different lengths) and the same ammo. The Challenger I know used to take longer to load (7-8 seconds) but the British have swapped some or all of their rifled cannons to the NATO cannon that is on the Leopard A6. As for the Leclerc that is the only NATO tank with its own unique cannon and auto-loader and I know very little about the whole system.

To be fair most tanks have a one hit kill spot, usually when you hit spots on the top of the turret. Most tanks will become disabled, or dead, with an accurate shot below the turret and above the hull.

The Challenger 2 still uses the L30 rifled gun. One tank was fitted with a Rheinmetall L/55 for testing purposes, and it will possibly replace the L30 in the future. However, other than that one tank used for trials, there are no Challys with a 120mm smoothbore gun.
AFAIK the one-shot-spots of tanks ingame (hatches, periscopes) have been fixed already.