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Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-01 22:44
by Truism
Truism wrote:Just while we're on the topic of 1337 ninja sf roof bounding breachers, can we have a comprehensive discussion about Dutch breacher's silencer. I've asked about 20 people who worked with the Dutch in Oruzgan and not one recalls a silencer on line troops. SOTG guys remember Dutch SF using them, but that's it.
I have to admit, I was struck by successive waves of disbelief when I read the Dutch design spreadsheets and then played them in game. I was initially unbelieving, then skeptical of the realism of silencers on Dutch line troops, so I asked around as many friends as I could readily find who were in Oruzgan at the same time the Dutch were, and none could recall seeing HK416s adorned by suppressors with line troops.
SF use suppressors, but nearly all SF use suppressors. I don't accept that Dutch SF is somehow disproportionately special or large enough to wind back the clock to 0.7 to accommodate them. US SOCOM is larger than the entire Dutch Army including reserves and the US factions don't have an SF class. The only suppressor we see on a US kit is the USMC DM, because the rifle comes with one in the CES standard. I previously interpreted this as design policy, and I'm sure I can dredge up some old RDEV posts that attest to this.
I think it would be good to have a comprehensive discussion about the realism and gameplay effect of this kit.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-01 23:09
by Spec
I'm inclined to agree. I don't see why the suppressor had to be there. The kit does not represend special forces.
I generally wouldn't even mind if there was an SF faction or something, like for Ramiel. In that case I'd not mind.
But the C8 with silencer for a regular breacher seems implausible.
Posted: 2014-06-01 23:33
by Portable.Cougar
But so freaking cool. We don't have lots of cool kits anymore.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-01 23:53
by Nate.
Reasoning is simple. Just read here:
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-01 23:53
by Wheres_my_chili
I was kind of surprised as well. I understand if they want to put it in there for cool factor (its pretty freaking cool) but I dont really understand where the devs are coming from anymore, especially when they nerfed the fire rate of the warrior and scimi (making them severely underpowered) for realism reasons.
It just kind of seems like a case of pick and choose as opposed to sticking to your guns is all
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 00:37
by Rudd
Wheres_my_chili wrote:
It just kind of seems like a case of pick and choose as opposed to sticking to your guns is all
I'd ask for understanding on this point, PR has had hundreds of people working on it, there are thousands of assets ingame that all need maintaining, there are alot of factions that not all of us know that much about, and the factions we do know about are constantly evolving IRL. We've actioned upon innaccurate information before, we've actioned for reasons other than realism on occasion for gameplay...but if we thought we were all knowing all powerful military experts then we'd just close threads like this instead of encouraging discussion.
So please, worry less about the motivations of the DEV team and more on the gameplay and if you have any reliable information, we're watching and reviewing what's being said and any information that is being revealed.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 00:43
by crazygamelover
Indeed, think about the Russian breacher thing. Some people have wanted the Russian specialist to have a Saiga 12, or at least some sort of shotgun, but the Russian military adviser for Project Reality has said that the Russian army does not use them regularly. That is fine, I'm all for realism. But now the Dutch devs can just give their troops whatever they see fit? I'm sorry but that just seems unfair. At least hold each faction team to the same scrutiny of load-out realism. I'm not trying to disrespect the PR or Dutch faction devs of coarse, I would never be able to accomplish the sorts of things you guys can do in this mod. But for the sake of realism, take the suppressors out. Or give some sources, stating that the Dutch regulars do in-fact use suppressed weapons, to shut my annoying face up...
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 01:05
by L4gi
Who cares? Its cool! Suppressors for everyone!
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 01:38
by ComradeHX
L4gi wrote:Who cares? Its cool! Suppressors for everyone!
RUS would need AKMS + PBS-1 combo for breacher unscoped kit, then.
It's used by more special(recon) unit but not necessarily special forces.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 01:55
by DesmoLocke
[R-DEV]Spec wrote:I generally wouldn't even mind if there was an SF faction or something, like for Ramiel. In that case I'd not mind.
^THIS x over 9000!
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 03:11
by Nugiman
I like the suppressor, unrealistic or not. It just gives that dutch breacher kit the special something. Everyone who plays the kit is glad about that fancy cool weapon!
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 05:48
by AfterDune
Thanks for the feedback. I feel a bit of brief history of the Dutch Breacher kit could be posted here, so you understand how this kit came to life:
For a long time, the Dutch faction focused on Afghanistan, as that was where most of our boys got sent to. During that time, the Breacher kit in PR was still called a Specialist - a do-it-all kind of kit as you well know.
The Dutch Specialist (in a way) was representing the KCT (commandos), but had the same kit layout as other Specialists. It was just carrying a KCT patch on the arms and held a HK416 rather than a C7.
The Dutch faction was started in 2008 or so (yes, it took that long). During the years, many things in PR got changed, as well as things in real life, hence we have a bit of a mix in certain areas. The Breacher kit being one of them, even though kit layout is the same as other factions.
Well, now you know the backstory and why he's carrying a HK416 that regular Dutch troops don't get. The weapon itself isn't overpowered in my opinion, but feels different and adds variety.
We'll take a look at the silencers though, and make changes if/where needed.
Posted: 2014-06-02 07:10
by ElshanF
In the maps where some factions have the silencers, the opposite faction should also have silencers too and it's equally balanced.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 08:37
by KaB
Why not making the suppressor breakable ? Like in MGS since the 3rd.
(already posted this in Suggestions tho, and it didn't get the approval)
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 08:38
by Ghostwolf
Well, since the spotter class rifle of militia and taliban have a scope on it, why don't you put a silencer on the rifles of spotter class of all regular forces on all maps?
Would kind of make sense, since spotter&sniper should move quiet?
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 08:40
by Psyrus
KaB wrote:Why not making the suppressor breakable ? Like in MGS since the 3rd.
(already posted this in Suggestions tho, and it didn't get the approval)
Not possible in the engine as far as I know
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 08:43
by KaB
[R-CON]Psyrus wrote:Not possible in the engine as far as I know
I actually suggested we add a 2nd slot with the exact same weapon but without suppressor. Then when the suppressor's broken (fired too much with the weapon with suppressor), you can only fire with the weapon from the new slot that doesn't have any suppressor.
And you link the ammos of these two slots.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 10:12
by Truism
'[R-DEV wrote:AfterDune;2011216']Thanks for the feedback. I feel a bit of brief history of the Dutch Breacher kit could be posted here, so you understand how this kit came to life:
For a long time, the Dutch faction focused on Afghanistan, as that was where most of our boys got sent to. During that time, the Breacher kit in PR was still called a Specialist - a do-it-all kind of kit as you well know.
The Dutch Specialist (in a way) was representing the KCT (commandos), but had the same kit layout as other Specialists. It was just carrying a KCT patch on the arms and held a HK416 rather than a C7.
The Dutch faction was started in 2008 or so (yes, it took that long). During the years, many things in PR got changed, as well as things in real life, hence we have a bit of a mix in certain areas. The Breacher kit being one of them, even though kit layout is the same as other factions.
Well, now you know the backstory and why he's carrying a HK416 that regular Dutch troops don't get. The weapon itself isn't overpowered in my opinion, but feels different and adds variety.
We'll take a look at the silencers though, and make changes if/where needed.
I don't understand why the kit is retained out of Afghanistan, and all my original points remain extant. No other faction has an SF kit, and no one has had an SF kit since, like, 0.8. Dutch SF is not particularly big or renowned, and if there's any argument for Dutch to have SF, there's an argument for every faction to have SF.
I still don't understand why this kit is in the release version.
Re: Dutch Breacher
Posted: 2014-06-02 10:43
by Pronck
Because the Dutch are awesome, that is why. Stop complaining, start accepting the fact that it is there.
Posted: 2014-06-02 10:49
by L4gi
I wouldnt mind if all breachers had suppressors.
