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There is something that is bugging me since 1.0: It's the spammy nature PR turned too. Fights are still tactical with thoughts, but they are always constant. Which is no wonder, since everbody is playing on the same maps of pre-1.0, but with 34 more player (yes they are new ones). And this spammness it due the nature of the maps. They have one route of flags everbody hangles along and so 50 people hit another team of 50 on a choke point. The issue is present specially on 1km? maps, but also on 2km? maps. Not so on 4km? ones.

Often these maps have a small area of were fights happen. Some examples are Muttrah, which has a lot of area that is simply water and hill. So fights focus on a small front line that is being pushed through the city. There is not much room for flanking due the high amount of people present in this area. This issue can also be experienced on other maps, such as Asad or Gaza.

Dont get me wrong - and I will get to the point as I stated in the title - I dont think we need to change the map to fix this issue. I think it boils down to the current spawn system. The issue is not that it gets spammy in general here. War is spammy. But its the constant stream of enemies that will get you a headache. You simply cant catch a break anymore.

What happens in a real skirmish fight? Shit is going on everywhere, people are shooting to supress, it's hectic. But what if it's over? There is silence. At least for a while. Enemies retreat and have to regroup and replan what their next step is. While it allows you to take a break yourself and regroup, reload, restock, etc...

But its not like this anymore. It used to be, but with the additional players and the changes made with 1.0 on the spawning system its a non-stop constant action going on. A defeated squad simply re-spawns on the one of many spawning positions and run up ahead to your positions again, and again, and again. At some point you will get defeated. There is no more real 'victory'-feeling when you won a nerve wrecking skirmish. You know that the enemies will come back for you. So you have to hurry up, get the revives going, get your squad resupplied and prepare for the next fight within 2 minutes maybe.

So here is my suggestion to overhaul the spawn system entirely:

FOBs-/Hideout Mechanics
For FOBs (all spawn points from factions that require actual crates to build. So no Hideouts):

• Have the following overrun ranges: 2 enemies within 1 small grid; 4 enemies within 2 small grids; 6+ enemies within 3 small grids (1 large grid).[1]
• Have the following build distances between fobs: 1km? - 100m; 2km? - 200m; 4km? - 300m[2]
• Lower the range for assets on 1km? to be within 100m of the fob. Keep them at 200m for the other map sizes.

For Hideouts[3]:

• Have the following overrun ranges: 2 enemies within 1 small grid; 4 enemies within 3 small grids, 6+ enemies within 6 small grids (1 large grid).
• Have the following build distances: 1km? - 75m; 2km? - 150m; 4km? - 300m

RallyPoints

• Remove the perm rallies around: flags and fobs. Leave them for APCs.[4]
• Keep the reload times as they are know, including the penality if the rally is overrun.

Reasoning
Here my reasoning for the various changes.

[1]: Its hard to attack a fob if the enemies can simply respawn in your face. The overrun distance is so short. I had a situation on saarema where my squad of 8 where fighting 2 squads of 8. We were able to eliminate them all and made a push onto their fob. They simply respawnd basically in our faces and killed us this time. It simply didnt feel right. Then we respawned and tried to attack this fob again (it was crucuial for their attack on our flag, so it had to be taken out). We took a flank but ran into a different squad we were able to kill. Which, you guessed it, respawned and walked up to us again. We were so close to the fob again but got pushed back out. In the end we were only able to destroy the fob by placing an area attack on it. I made a quick drawing of that first skirmish: As you can see. The FOB positions are marked in the respective color. We were able to push onto the tree line in front of the village. That's within of 150m of their fob. They simply respawned in our faces.

I had many of these situation, that's why I suggest an overrun distance based on the mapsize and the amount of people within a certain range. That allows sneaker to sneek onto a FOB to take it out without it being overrun across the map and squads dont have to deal with enemies spawning right in their faces.

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[2]: This is mainly a mandatory change for balance reasons of [1]. It prevents one attacking squad to overrun the entire enemy firebases if they are build to closely to each other.

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[3]: I suggest different values fore Hideouts because of mainly 2 points: They don't require crates and in insurgency, insurgents can re-spawn unlimited amount of times due no tickets.

First: No crates makes it super easy for a faction to set up their spawns. Just put down a hideout somewhere. Only a radio and shovel is required. No logistic network to worry about. Which makes it super easy for said factions to simply rebuild a hideout in a different position if one gets taken out / overrun.
Second: Insurgency has this one feature that insurgents dont have tickets. Which is nice itself, but faces blufor a big problem. For them to take out a cache they need (besides a lucky cache spawn) to secure the surrounding area and mostly got off the enemy reinforcement. If they dont cut it off, the enemies simply respawn all over again without a real punishment. Making it really hard for blufor. That's also the reason why blufor armor stacks up so many kills. My suggestion makes it easier for blufor infantry to go against the reinforcement of their enemies. In theory they can cut off the enemy reinforcement and then kill the remaining enemies defending the cache and take it out. While insurgents have to worry more about their reinforcements and actual think about not dying, instead of simply "Hurrr, durrr, lets respawn, again, and again, and again...".

Even tho I think this fill not fix insurgency as a whole...

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[4] This, I think, is the biggest factor why the game became so spammy with 1.0. Rallies can be placed permantly on so many spots. Just look at the coverage on Muttrah City by flags alone:
In these spots you can put down rallies and they'll stay permanent if you have said flag. ZERO support via logistics needed. Then why did you remove flags on spawn? Its basically the same, but even better: you can hide your rally point in a corner anywhere in that range. You dont even have to spawn directly on the flag! Same with rally points within fob ranges: Why? Why not have the fob act as the spawn point as it is intended. Why are rallies permanent over there? Overall I think this rally point mechanic introduced with 1.0 made the #1 reason why you cant catch a god damn break in this game anymore. We had permanent rallies befor and it was changed. And I liked this change. It was a step forwards to a more tactical and slow paced gameplay. The rally point change with 1.0 on the other hand I consider a step back again.

The only thing I like tho: Have rallies be permanent around APC/IFVs. That's perfect. The APCs/IFVs can stay back on an assault to support you from distance while you can assault. Offering you a respawn point when you fail. And its fair. An APCs has to move at some point, because it is becoming increasingly a easier target. Standing still for too long will most likley result in the death of the APC. Maybe one thought would be to lower the range for the rally to be near the APC for it to become permanent.


Conclusion
Ofcourse I havent eaten the truth with spoons. So feel free to suggest different values or even other ideas. Maybe competly different, maybe based upon my suggestions. But what I see needs to change is that the game becomes a bit less spammy. 100p is a welcome change, but together with the spawn changes it made it so spammy that I feel back at Strike at Karkand often. Just missing that constant in-game voice spam.

So please DEVs, take my suggestion and have some thoughts on it. PR is a slower game and not a CoD. But of course not a walking simulator such as arma. But in ArmA you can actually catch a break after a firefight.

We have discussed the different overrun ranges based on amount of players internally already. Dont quite remember what the result was, but most likely something along "would be nice, but who is gonna do it?" Personally i would like this and even let single players overrun FOBs if they are very close (10m). That would help against spawn camping etc. I am not quite sure with your suggested ranges. Imo spawnpoints should not differ that much between map sizes. Why does 1km maps need closer FOBs than 2km? This gets even more noticeable when you look at the numbers you suggested for 1km:
- 2 soldiers within 1 small grid = 2 within 25m
- 4 soldiers within 2 small grids = 4 within 50m
- 6 soldiers within 3 small grids = 6 within 75m
As you can see it would be more difficult to overrun a FOB on 1km than i currently is (2 within 50m). I would keep the 200m between FOBs for all map sizes and come up with overrun ranges based on the current 2 within 50m as lowest.
We are also discussing the permanent rally points and already have some changes planned for them
The lowered distances between hideouts is something we had in past Insurgency 2.0 tests and it turned out to be too much. It makes very spammy gameplay and you dont seem to want that . Then again we had it with only the current 2men in 50m overrun range.
The build ranges i am also not a fan of. The main reason why we see little use of emplacements is often that they just give away the FOB location. Usually the use is limited to the essentials like TOW and AA. It would also force you to build frontline-fobs just for building and since the 6 FOBs often are already used for spawning i dont see this happening. I would much rather be able to build stuff just with crates w/o need of FOB close, but this another topic.

If this thread becomes a a "0.98 rallies - best rallies" circlejerk, we will have to lock it. So keep it civil and focused on the suggestion.

[R-DEV]Mats391 wrote:If this thread becomes a a "0.98 rallies - best rallies" circlejerk, we will have to lock it. So keep it civil and focused on the suggestion.

What about a 0.874 rallies best rallies circlejerk?

This gave me the idea of making dynamic spawn times.

This is just a draft but selecting each spawn point would change the respawn time, the folloing way:
spawnTime = A + B + C + D

• A - The minimum ammount
• B - Distance to main base
• C - Ratio between distance to friendly flag and enemy one
• D - Distance to where player died

B, would mean spawning in main and taking choppers would be viable again.

C, would reduce players spawning behind enemy lines, this would indeed simulate the requirement of "sneaking" in.

D, would hopefully reduce the spawn-die-spawn-die circle.

Ofc this values would have a min and max limits, but in the end would always reduce the current rush abilities without creating the "watch the black screen" scenarion

//edit: doens't work

Can you make it so one-man can also overrun a fob? Because one-man MG/AR camping is not really PR standards.

Following what turista said, is it possible to change spawn times for a specific fob in regards to how many crates are next to it? My thought is that the availability of a fob is due to how much logistics is next to it.

An easier way to fix the constant spawning and rushing is using a system that works based on numbers.

Map placed RP's for example can disappear after X amount of soldiers have spawned so why not implement that along with enemy proximity?

- 1 enemy soldier within 10m
- 2 enemy soldiers within 25m
- 4 enemy soldiers within 50m
- 6 enemy soldiers within 75m

Then add a "reload" timer to the fobs to allow a maximum of 32 spawns (4 x 8 man squad) and then time-out for X minutes where the fob is disabled. That way you also stop them from being used to detect if there are enemies around. If possible, the time-out would be lower when the fob is closer to main base and higher when it is further away from it. Another option would be to simply increase the player spawn-time based on which spawn he selected and how far it is from the main-base, instead of the fob having a time-out.

I totally agree that the constant spawn rushing needs to be address and a mod that includes a supply/logistics system should maintain it to be required for most of the round. The current system only requires pilots to transport and supply squads mostly in the beginning of the round and then be bored out of their skulls for the majority of the remaining time.

There is no way to make respawn time dependent on the spawn point you selected. We simply cant tell what spawn someone selected until he spawns. Else we wouldnt allow spawning on wrong RP already
I am not so keen on the max spawns on a FOB. In worst case you would try to spawn on a FOB with your squad, but it gets disabled after one player spawns.
We talked about the overrun ranges again and thought it might be a good idea to compensate the higher overrun ranges by lower disable times on the FOB. Currently it is disabled for 90secs, cutting this in half would make losing the FOB less annoying and fighting off the enemy more rewarding. It would also put more stress on the enemy as he has to push to take out the FOB for good.

[R-DEV]Mats391 wrote:Currently it is disabled for 90secs, cutting this in half

We actually said 1/3 of the current time would probably work better, with naturally regular checks of around the same time to ensure no enemies where about in the disabling range

Just force 100 second respawn times, makes people think twice before giving up, along with non-permanent rallies, really the only way PR INF combat can go back to it's old pace.

No intentions of thread hijacking, since it's spawn related kind of, can keyboard navigation be added for selecting spawn points on the map please?

Why don't you make FOBs only spawnable if they have crates near by. It would certainly give trans pilots a thing to do constantly rather than sit on a pad on standby.

Turista's idea sounds really good imo.

X-Alt wrote:Just force 100 second respawn times, makes people think twice before giving up, along with non-permanent rallies, really the only way PR INF combat can go back to it's old pace.

Yeah, really fun when accidental vehicle team kills happen e.g in main or by griefer etc. Who wouldn't like some more waiting? As if infantry was overpowered. How about playing insurgency? You die literally all the time because of blufor armor or scoped weapons.

I too would like to slow PR down.

Having a FOB overrun by one would stop spawn camping but could introduce teamwork lone wolf who blocks enemy FOBs by camping them, no cheap kills but would really hurt the enemy.

I can't really think of much more input, but I agree that a slow down on spawns and more work for trans would improve the game for many.

I'm new and not that familiar with how the base building systems work. Does a FOB degrade if it doesn't have any crates nearby? Because if it does you should tie in spawning soldiers to the crates. IE, as a soldier spawns on the FOB he essentially gets his kit's worth of supplies from the crate and the crates eventually deplete and need replaced or the FOB itself will go down. Again, no idea if that can work but it seemed like a clever idea if possible.

PolishKruk wrote:Does a FOB degrade if it doesn't have any crates nearby?

No.


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I've yet to read a convincing (or any) argument from the DEVs (seemingly the only ones in favour of permanent ralies) on why permanent rallies are better than 0.98 rallies, especially now we have 100 player servers.

[R-DEV]Mats391 wrote: If this thread becomes a a "0.98 rallies - best rallies" circlejerk, we will have to lock it. So keep it civil and focused on the suggestion.

LMAO thanks for that