Project Reality Forums

I think that HAMAS should no longer have civilians, for a few reasons:

1.) Their loadouts are actually formiddable on their own -- they do not need the civilian advantage like Iraqi Insurgents do

2.) The HAMAS civis wear balaclavas and green HAMAS headbands -- they don't look very much like civilians, which feels kinda broken and just gamey

3.) I think HAMAS is OP on most maps, so a debuff can only be an improvement

4.) I think the French forces should not have to worry about civilians on Operation Marlin. The confined, urban, vertical, environment of Marlin already gives the HAMAS a bigger advantage than they could ever need.

INS on Marlin is very difficult for the French now. Played it twice and it was 5-0 Hamas each time. The lack of mortars hurts more than you'd expect as well.

Every new INS layer starts with 5 caches on release like this one. Depending on map statistics it can be tweaked. Will see before next hotfix is something is needed. Thx for notifying.

And why is saved old AK-47(AKS-47) of HAMAS? Why AK-47 is not replaced by AKM(AKMS) for appropriate kits ?

XAHTEP39 wrote:And why is saved old AK-47(AKS-47) of HAMAS? Why AK-47 is not replaced by AKM(AKMS) for appropriate kits ?

Because in all honesty we couldn't find any refs of hamas armed with akm style rifles. Rather oddly they all had rifles that resembled the ak47 more than the akm (no muzzle brake, smooth dust cover etc etc)

[R-DEV]camo wrote:Because in all honesty we couldn't find any refs of hamas armed with akm style rifles. Rather oddly they all had rifles that resembled the ak47 more than the akm (no muzzle brake, smooth dust cover etc etc)

NRA?s Eddie Eagle program failing miserably in Gaza ? Bob Owens
http://static5.businessinsider.com/imag ... nflict.jpg
Close enough to AKM.

Why not also give Hamas AK-74M?
Also, they clearly have railed handguard there; isn't there some kind of railed AK for PMC faction that was dropped? Can't we have one of those?

If this is your reason for AK"47" instead of AKM:

These look like Chinese Type-56, which have stamped receiver; I would say they are pretty close to the "AKMS" we have in-game, since the stock from "AKMS" in-game is from the AK"47."

Don't forget that AK top cover is the easiest thing to remove(other than cleaning rod), so it's not that impossible to have mismatched top cover.


Remember, there is no AK47.

Feel free to model a type 56 if you want, but until we that the ak47 is a closer substitute, at least in appearance. Most people don't care if one is stamped or milled.

Tbh, I prefer the ak47 over the akm because the sights are a lot better.

Geronimo wrote:Tbh, I prefer the ak47 over the akm because the sights are a lot better.

... but AKM is more aesthetic and modern (with compare AK-47), AK-47 is sooo old...

Am I the only one who thinks HAMAS shouldn't have civilians?

Nightingale wrote:Am I the only one who thinks HAMAS shouldn't have civilians?

Why not?

Palestine does not only consist of terrorists.

Armchairman_Mao wrote:Why not?

Refer to post #1 of thread (I think point 2 is the most important flaw about HAMAS civis):

Nightingale wrote: 1.) Their loadouts are actually formiddable on their own -- they do not need the civilian advantage like Iraqi Insurgents do

2.) The HAMAS civis wear balaclavas and green HAMAS headbands -- they don't look very much like civilians, which feels kinda broken and just gamey

3.) I think HAMAS is OP on most maps, so a debuff can only be an improvement

4.) I think the French forces should not have to worry about civilians on Operation Marlin. The confined, urban, vertical, environment of Marlin already gives the HAMAS a bigger advantage than they could ever need.

Armchairman_Mao wrote:Palestine does not only consist of terrorists.

Yeah, but innocent civilians don't walk around in the streets wearing a black balaclava and green headbands. Literally nothing about the portrayal of Iraqi Civis or the HAMAS Civis is even remotely close to realistic; they are just interesting game mechanics that should be tweaked according to the demands of game balance. Realism arguments don't work here.

Why shouldn't they? HAMAS uses human shield tactics with civilians all the time.

So are either of you interested in responding to the points I made in the first post, or...?

It's a tough call really. It does feel very gamey and gives civilians a massive advantage in the meta-game. Civilians already have enough tricks when they look somewhat distinct and I can understand where Night is coming from.

On the flip side a lot of civilians do dress up like Hamas during protest/marches and what not, as a show of solidarity towards their cause. Right or wrong, it does still happen.





(granted that last one is from Saudi-Arabia, but it still proves the point that civilians do dress akin to Hamas in certain circumstances)

Nightingale wrote: Yeah, but innocent civilians don't walk around in the streets wearing a black balaclava and green headbands. Literally nothing about the portrayal of Iraqi Civis or the HAMAS Civis is even remotely close to realistic; they are just interesting game mechanics that should be tweaked according to the demands of game balance. Realism arguments don't work here.

Last time I checked, people are not combatants as long as they are unarmed.
They can wear whatever they want, as pointed out above.

By your logic, civi kit in other INS should disappear too, since they all have similar base geometry(exactly the same in case of MEINS Medic).

Keep in mind that HAMAS civi kit does not have as many useful things as MEINS civi kit.

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So what was your point? HAMAS loadout is formidable? Just because they have fullauto M16? Not all of them do, and they rarely have optics.

If you play only infantry and utilizes no assets, of course HAMAS look OP(so does every other INS faction because they have unlimited spawn).

Even assuming HAMAS is OP, it's realistic; IDF hasn't taken out HAMAS IRL either.

Murphy wrote:It's a tough call really. It does feel very gamey and gives civilians a massive advantage in the meta-game. Civilians already have enough tricks when they look somewhat distinct and I can understand where Night is coming from.

They don't.

HAMAS civi do not have shovels, which is one huge part of their usefulness.

MEINS civi(objectively worse kit selection) squad can deploy and build mortars, roadblocks...etc.; HAMAS civi can't build them due to lack of shovel, last time I checked. I would trade the Ninja headband for shovels anytime.

Thanks for making a response this time that was longer than 9 words. I'm not being sarcastic; I think this is a much better way to discuss this topic.

Armchairman_Mao wrote:Even assuming HAMAS is OP, it's realistic; IDF hasn't taken out HAMAS IRL either.

So you don't think HAMAS is OP?

We are having a completely different conversation then.

I don't think it's very bold of me to say that winning as HAMAS is extremely easy in PR. It's to the point where it's no fun, because the BluFor don't even put up a real fight. Project Reality isn't a realistic game, and I'd rather have fun fighting the BluFor (IDF / France) rather than sitting around waiting for my team's inevitable victory to arrive.

Nightingale wrote:Thanks for making a response this time that was longer than 9 words. I'm not being sarcastic; I think this is a much better way to discuss this topic.


So you don't think HAMAS is OP?

We are having a completely different conversation then.

I don't think it's very bold of me to say that winning as HAMAS is extremely easy in PR. It's to the point where it's no fun, because the BluFor don't even put up a real fight. Project Reality isn't a realistic game, and I'd rather have fun fighting the BluFor (IDF / France) rather than sitting around waiting for my team's inevitable victory to arrive.

HAMAS still has inferior equipment compared to less-scope IDF(Tavor > fullauto M16, last time I checked anyway), since Hamas has a mix of m16, mp5, AK"47"...etc. Obviously IDF has heavy assets(in most cases). France is even better.



Other than Civi kit and M16, HAMAS has nothing else that Militia didn't have. Is Militia OP too?
I would trade civi kit for Militia's heavy vehicles anyday.

I think civilians should stay with HAMAS mainly because they're such a big aspect of the conflict in Gaza and would be silly to assume HAMAS would ever defend a non-populated area. It's in their best interests to force their opponent to commit collateral damage.

That being said, I agree it's kind of ridiculous for masked men dressed in all black with HAMAS head-bands to be considered as "civilians". IMO it ruins the aesthetic.

Maybe their could be a spawnable-only kit, dressed in civilian clothes, similar to the Insurgent's collaborator? It could be an ALT version of the medic kit, although I'm not sure if it's possible for STD and ALT spawns of the same class to have different player models.

Armchairman_Mao wrote:HAMAS still has inferior equipment compared to less-scope IDF(Tavor > fullauto M16, last time I checked anyway), since Hamas has a mix of m16, mp5, AK"47"...etc. Obviously IDF has heavy assets(in most cases). France is even better.



Other than Civi kit and M16, HAMAS has nothing else that Militia didn't have. Is Militia OP too?
I would trade civi kit for Militia's heavy vehicles anyday.

But HAMAS still wins most if the time so there's obviously a balance issue. I don't see why you would try to deny this.