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For a long time (at least since v1.0), this map has been regarded by players as being a completely one-sided meatgrinder that is impossible for BluFor to win (unless NVA is totally incompetent). Most Vietnam maps favour the NVA to some degree, but this map is just over-the-top. I think admins load it every once in a while, because they think it will bring some nice variety to the Vietnam game mode (eg. not Ia Drang), but it's absolutely no fun to play on for either side because it's ridiculously unbalanced.

There's nowhere on the map for the USA to safely fly supplies in and build a FOB without it being in plain sight to the NVA. The two ZU cannons, and the ZSU AAV make it pointless to try to fly troops onto the objectives in the center of the map.

If the USA builds mortars on their side of the river, then an admin will step in and tell them to remove it because it's not reachable unless you swim for 10 minutes straight. In comparison, the NVA have a wide variety of choices for where to build mortars (including) large regions where they can be protected by the AA cannons and AA vehicle), a very fast LOGI vehicle, and a short distance between the mainbase and viable build spots.

There's also a technical problem: The grass (terrain grass--not a static) is tall enough to make you think you are concealed, but if an enemy is standing far away enough from you, the grass isn't rendered and you are in plain sight.

Everytime this map is played, the NVA will win by at least 200 tickets. The only time this doesn't happen is when the NVA team doesn't care about the outcome of the game and just dicks around so that the next map will load.

If this map were to be removed in the next version, I don't think PR would lose anything of value. The only good quality of this map I can think of is that it looks good.

Same problem on Jabal, basically every maps like these where 1 team has to assault beaches are unbalanced. Attacking team has to show high level of teamwork and be very coordinated, which is impossible. Or the defending team has to be disorganized

Like Sky said, any map where American forces start in the water will have a tough time getting established. I don't think it's as unbalanced as you say. It requires the American forces to be more disciplined and to do what they need to do, which is not going for the objective first and establishing a strong land spawn system on the land first. That's for any map that has a team with an air cavalry force.

The only real issue i've seen with this map is the small amount of tickets. The games usually end in 45 minutes or less, and when I play American forces, i'm always shaping my squad and the rest of the team towards establishing a strong base of operations. But when I get the momentum going, the round just ends before it really even begins.

I think that, even if you compare Charlie to Jabal, Charlie is still much more one-sided.

On Jabal, there is a large set of mountains and cliffs that the USA helicopters can fly behind. It's not a flat beach like Charlie. This makes it practical to establish the FOB network needed to attack the objectives. There is even a spot on the beach where the MEC cannot shoot mortars at, because it has a repair bay. An admin will not allow you to mortar this part of the map, which gives the USA a permanent spawn from which to deploy APCs and troops.

On Charlie, there is no such thing. The USA has no repair on a beach somewhere, and it has no APCs or jeeps. Only helicopters and the boats (and the boats are pretty useless). There are no useful geographical features for the US helicopters to hide behind, so every FOB the USA makes has to be made in plain sight to the NVA. The helicopters can only fly along the very edges of the map where the ZU cannons cannot reach, and even then it's possible that the ZSU AAV will show up and take them down.

I think it's way too hard for the USA to establish a proper spawning infrastructure on Charlie. On Jabal, the geography and heavy assets make this a practical strategy, but the situation is very different on Charlie.

Maybe a dev can give us the statistics for this map? Or just a rough idea (it doesn't need to be a number)?

Half decent gunner in the ZSU will cost more tickets than any single asset should. Boats and Choppers that approach the first objective get evaporated. The only option is for the US to build fobs on the extremities of the mainland. Then the BTR mops them up.

This map provides way to much firepower to the NVA, even though I love the ZSU it's way too effective.

BTR60 already doesn't spawn anymore for a few releases now. I'll remove the AAV for next release. This map should indeed be a infantry focused map. The AAV was left on last releases cause the AAV got a pretty big nerf (in v1.3 I think). But it seems it is still too powerful.

The times I've played this map have been witnessing US squads being full retard and landing at dumb locations. (Right on a ZPU cannon)

I'd take this map over IA Drang though lol. Awesome atmosphere.

[R-DEV]Mineral wrote:BTR60 already doesn't spawn anymore for a few releases now. I'll remove the AAV for next release. This map should indeed be a infantry focused map. The AAV was left on last releases cause the AAV got a pretty big nerf (in v1.3 I think). But it seems it is still too powerful.

Sounds good. But I feel NVA should still have AA. How about a stationary AA gun on the objective 2nd objective in the center of the map?

Maybe replace the AA with more FAVs, the NVA ones have very limited traverse iirc. It would give them some AA capability to replace the AA while not giving something that can influence the course of the battle single-handed.

Nightingale wrote:For a long time (at least since v1.0), this map has been regarded by players as being a completely one-sided meatgrinder that is impossible for BluFor to win (unless NVA is totally incompetent). Most Vietnam maps favour the NVA to some degree, but this map is just over-the-top. I think admins load it every once in a while, because they think it will bring some nice variety to the Vietnam game mode (eg. not Ia Drang), but it's absolutely no fun to play on for either side because it's ridiculously unbalanced.

There's nowhere on the map for the USA to safely fly supplies in and build a FOB without it being in plain sight to the NVA. The two ZU cannons, and the ZSU AAV make it pointless to try to fly troops onto the objectives in the center of the map.

If the USA builds mortars on their side of the river, then an admin will step in and tell them to remove it because it's not reachable unless you swim for 10 minutes straight. In comparison, the NVA have a wide variety of choices for where to build mortars (including) large regions where they can be protected by the AA cannons and AA vehicle), a very fast LOGI vehicle, and a short distance between the mainbase and viable build spots.

There's also a technical problem: The grass (terrain grass--not a static) is tall enough to make you think you are concealed, but if an enemy is standing far away enough from you, the grass isn't rendered and you are in plain sight.

Everytime this map is played, the NVA will win by at least 200 tickets. The only time this doesn't happen is when the NVA team doesn't care about the outcome of the game and just dicks around so that the next map will load.

If this map were to be removed in the next version, I don't think PR would lose anything of value. The only good quality of this map I can think of is that it looks good.

I question if you know how to play this map as US forces. There is no need to capture any flags as the US. This map is just about attrition, and when the US team realizes this they can win.

Except that the US often loses the attrition battle by having a lot more assets to squander, Trans pilots will have to choose between supplying infantry or saving tickets. It's counter-productive to have an AAS map in which capturing the objectives is secondary to having a TDM style round.

In an organized match this map would probably work a lot better, but in a public setting you cannot expect players to avoid the objectives and conserve tickets.

Murphy wrote:Except that the US often loses the attrition battle by having a lot more assets to squander, Trans pilots will have to choose between supplying infantry or saving tickets. It's counter-productive to have an AAS map in which capturing the objectives is secondary to having a TDM style round.

In an organized match this map would probably work a lot better, but in a public setting you cannot expect players to avoid the objectives and conserve tickets.

Probably would be better if NVA only spawned in base at start. That may be enough to balance the map.

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