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Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

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Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-03-31 20:24
by Valmont
It is not stealing if you buy them... right... right? 8)

For real now... I was thinking that there are a lot of awesome assets out there, in mods like forgoten hope, alpha project and the like... that would save tons of dev time for us and get us a better PR even faster.

So I started reading and most mods won't give up their assets for nothing and that is super understandable.

So what about buying them? Yes... you heard me right... buying assets from another mod for PR... why not?

First, PR is not a mod anymore... its a fully stand alone game now.

Second, lots of players would happily donate money if the other modding teams would agree to sell a particular asset of them to PR.

Because lets be honest, time is money and the time our devs use to create everything from scratch is money anyway, theirs and ours but mostly theirs.

So I say... I propose... we have a vote in favor or against asking other modding teams if they would be willing to sell the particular assets PR needs/wants. (Be it a Naval Ships, Buildings, Interiors, Vehicles, Weapons, Whatever).

And if they agree we evaluate the costs and donate for the cause on a per asset basis)

I am in for it.

What do you guys say?

PS: Forum mods maybe you could make a poll out of this: A) In favor B) Against C) I don't care

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 01:14
by Rice N. Beans
I understand where you're coming from: it's clever and time-saving, etc.

I think it will be hard to get the money accurately to the INDIVIDUALS responsible for the original asset creation
Money may not go to the right people I would imagine sometimes
May open up a can of worms, cause needless politics in something that ought to be pure enjoyment

I think time should be traded for time
Such as: "They" agree to a trade if "we" dedicate such-and-such time towards a project of THEIRS
And that's just general team-work rather than a cold transaction

Let me know if this is crazy talk
I'm just an observer on the outside of this project

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 02:30
by Valmont
I also get your point Rice but the money wouldn't go to a particular individual rather the team manager or the person who administrates their resources.

I understand that even PR had problems trusting people with the donations and such but it could be done the right way if donors get all the info and are also able to do some research before deciding.

Also, for an even clearer transaction donors could directly send their donations to the selling person rather than intermediaries.

About trading time and assets from PR I don't think other mods want any... well other than for example the going stand alone know how that would greatly benefit other high profile mods like Forgotten Hope.

It seems like a fair trade to me. They allow PR to use their assets and PR gives them the laucher and stand alone tech so they too can go BF2 independent.

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 06:58
by PLODDITHANLEY
I have never played FH but I would be filled with joy if they could be combined one day, I had the impression that FH shared the master server with PR or maybe I'm wrong.

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 07:26
by Ason
If you feel like buying a model and donate it to PR I guess there is nothing stopping you, as long as you have full rights to use it and give credits to the creator etc.

Problem is, getting the model is not the only thing required to get it ingame. There is alot more work than just making the model. Also the PR team is very limited in manpower and most devs working with everything related to getting vehicles ingame are already overloaded with tasks.

FH2 have their own ms now afaik and FH2 + PR won't happen, it has been discussed very much in the past.

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 11:05
by ZektorSK
Just buying model and bringing it into game isn't how it works

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 12:33
by Rhino
Valmont wrote:So I started reading and most mods won't give up their assets for nothing and that is super understandable.
Actually PR is made up of content from a lot of different BF2 mods, which we have shared with a lot in the past. USI is probably the biggest contributor of all to PR, with us giving them a bunch of stuff in the past, as well as us having assets from OPK2 and a bunch of other mods, pretty much all the mods that are in BSS we have shared assets with, which was the whole point of BSS, although PR has benefited the most from it overall, hell, PR:Vietnam is basically made up almost entirely of EOD2 stuff and is basically EOD2 in PR.

But there are a bunch of good reasons why we don't use every asset from every mod we possibly can. Firstly there is the quality of the asset itself, is it good enough quality to be in PR. Secondly is the asset optimized? You would be amazed at the amount of assets in many mods which have no LODs at all (which they can just about get away with, with the low view distances and few assets, we can not), and really unoptimized and sometimes very buggy collision meshes, texture setups, etc. Speaking of Textures, is the texture pattern the right and realistic pattern we need for our faction ingame? If not, we need to redo them. Lastly is the asset setup for PR's gameplay, with long deploy, reload etc animations or w/e? If this is not a yes for all these points, which is hardly never, then it required quite a bit of work fixing them up to be usable in PR, and this is not forgetting all the re-coding that must be done to all new assets to bring their weapon damage settings and w/e, all up to PR's settings.

To get an idea, here is a review of a bunch of POE2 assets I did a few years ago when POE2 opened the door for us being able to use some of their assets:
Spoiler for POE2 2013 Assets Review:
Right taking a look at these items in more detail now.


NH90
3p lod0 doesn't look bad, the rocket pod can't be removed via code as far as I can see, would need to be removed with a re-export but we can just ignore it (ie, have it on the model, but not loaded with anything) or possibly disguise it as a fuel tank? http://www.airventure.de/ila2008/3/ILA2 ... twaffe.jpg
Dunno if we want to consider having it workable, would it be realistic at all?
The model dose suffer from no wreck lods, but its wreck lod0 is only 1.4k tris so shouldn't be tooo bad. Could do with a better cockpit but one it has works, other than that, model looks good to me :D


Su-27
Well for starts, 3p lod0 again looks good and has an alright set of 3p lods, wreck doesn't have any lods but its lod0 is only 954tris so shouldn't be too bad. Worst thing I can see about this model is it has the Mig-29 cockpit (they really do like to use vBF2 jet cockpits hehe :p ) which doesn't really work too well, but dose the job I guess... :p
http://i.imgur.com/b9Kq6Sz.jpg
Model would still be a good addition to PR :)


Su-25
3p lod0 looks good, much better than the USI one and even has all of its hardpoints open for mounting w/e we like. Has a pretty good set of lods too, other than no wreck lods again but its wreck lod0 is only 847tris so again, not too bad, got far worse final lods on many other vehicles. The model even has a rather nice cockpit, but no floor but we can live with that: http://i.imgur.com/P4dfLr6.jpg
This would also be a good addition for PR I feel :D


Tornado IDS
Its 3p, lod0 is again, better than the OPK one, and even had better lods both on geom1 and geom2 (wreck) but is again, let down by the cockpit... This time its using the vBF2 F-15E cockpit model, even has the same error of the buttons being clipping over the screen :p
http://i.imgur.com/rK6YwcS.jpg
Without a new cockpit, don't think its worth replacing but with one, yes.


Eurofighter
While the 3p, lod0 is more accurate than the vBF2 model, its cockpit model is the biggest problem: http://i.imgur.com/sHRdwAk.jpg
It could also do with some more lods but in all its lods are more or less on par with the VBF2 EF2000, but the vBF2 model has a much better cockpit so I don't think we should be swapping it. http://i.imgur.com/REW3uEu.jpg


Tiger
Forgetting the r/l accuracy issues, the model doesn't look to bad but again, let down by no decent cockpit and bad lods.


F-22
Turns out they have an F-22, model is pretty low poly, 2k tris for 3p, lod0 and it has no lods... Cockpit is pretty nice however (actually higher tri count than the 3p model at 3k tris) http://i.imgur.com/TTuHtWN.jpg
We would really need to make some lods for this if we wanted to use it but its main model is a bit too low poly to be worth putting much effort into tbh unless we have a real need.


F/A-18F
This model is again, pretty low poly, only 4k tris for 3p lod0, but like the F-22, doesn't have any lods... Cockpit is pretty good although nothing amazing. TBH Don't think its worth putting the effort into making lods for unless we have a need for a two seater F/A-18? Can't see how unless its going to fill the role of fighter-bomber like the Tornado?


Cobra
The model is pretty low poly, only made up by its kick *** high rez texture but that would have to go if included into PR and then it would like utter **** as the low polyness would show though really badly. Its using the vBF2 cobra cockpit too :p
Has lods for its main mesh but again, no lods for its wreck but only a 860tri lod0 for its wreck so not too bad. TBH, I don't think its a good idea to replace the vBF2 cobra with this...


Su-24
Right this wasn't in POE2's latest version but luckily I had v1.0 on my HDD too so I installed that and found the files in there :)
Looks like they never used this model from what I can tell, has no wreck model at all, its 3p lod0 count is 10k tris which I can't see where the tris are going, from what I can tell also from a quick import into max is this model suffers from many double faces, doubling its tri count pretty much and the model was probably too screwed up for them to be bothered to fix. Would have been a nice fighter bomber for the MEC, better than the Su-34 which is only used by Russia currently in r/l. We might be able to fix it up, think MD knows of a good script to delete doubled up faces but ye, we would need to put quite a bit of work into this model to get it to fly.


Flakpanzer Gepard A2
3p lod0 looks good, got some polies for once :p
Even has a good set of lods and cols, although its col0 doesn't look very optimized, should be fine. No problems with putting this in PR from what I can see :D


GTK Boxer APC
3p lod0 looks good, has a good set of normal lods but no wreck lods with its wreck lod0 being 1.8k tris, nothing that's not manageable but not good for long VDs. It has a cool little driver cabin on both 1p and 3p models but its texture is pretty low rez so we really shouldn't show it in 1p: http://i.imgur.com/cvoxzdN.jpg
Also has a passenger area, in both its 3p and 1p models but dose have a slight mesh error where a face with a bad UV is covering up the area the gunner stands but isn't too bad. http://i.imgur.com/E0Y6EPZ.jpg
The biggest problem with this frankly is that it loads a "gerkit_01_c.dds" texture, that is a 90% empty 1024x1024 texture sheet, with only a shovel and a grill on it, that a shovel and pick axe stuck to the side load: http://i.imgur.com/e46IrgA.jpg
We would have to make this texture pretty low rez in order for it not to be too much of a waste but will probably end up with the shovel etc looking shitty but better than all the wasted memory. http://i.imgur.com/qmT1pRo.jpg
Model has a few issues but should be good for our needs but if we can, should look into fixing it up :D


Marder 1A5 IFV
3p lod0 looks good, got a good set of lods other than for the wreck again which had no lods and its lod0 is 2k tris... Not so good for long VDs but should be manageable.
Like the Boxer the biggest problem with this frankly is that it loads a "gerkit_01_c.dds" texture, that is a 90% empty 1024x1024 texture sheet, with only a shovel and a grill on it, that a shovel and pick axe stuck to the side load: http://i.imgur.com/e46IrgA.jpg
We would have to make this texture pretty low rez in order for it not to be too much of a waste but will probably end up with the shovel etc looking shitty but better than all the wasted memory. http://i.imgur.com/qmT1pRo.jpg
Model has a few issues but should be good for our needs but if we can, should look into fixing it up :D


Roland II Anti-air Vehicle
ummm, no ingame files for this... But from what I can tell it uses the same hull as the Marder although with a few differences. Might be still worth asking for this model so we can export it ourselves?


Dingo 2
lods aren't too good, wreck has no lods and is 2.6k tris, roof is closed shut only allowing a RWS. All in all, we could use this as a temp place holder if ours is way off but we really could do with a better model.


Leopard 2A6
Model isn't very detailed, less so that I was expecting, low detail than the OPK one but the OPK model has a load of issues. Commander hatch is also open.. http://i.imgur.com/EfGbGLo.jpg
It has better lods than the OPK model but not by too much and still not a full, good set with the wreck only having a lod0 of 1.3k tris but the OPK wreck lod0 (doesn't have any wreck lods either) is 6.3k tris....
Looks like this also uses the "gerkit_01_c.dds" for the grill around the outside... Can't really low the texture rez of that sheet without screwing up the grill big time. Another option would be to pack that sheet with lots of other stuff like kit bags etc to shove on the vehicles to make it more worth while to load but would need to make that stuff http://i.imgur.com/SjAxUFA.jpg
I think its best to stick with the OPK model in the short term but really need to get the FDF model converted and done ASAP!


M1A2
To put it simply, isn't worth replacing ours with theirs. Theirs is more optimized, but overall less poly detail, their model mainly relies on high rez, texture detail. But ours doesn't have very optimized lods, final for both geom1 and geom2 is around 2.4k tris so we should look into optimizing that really... But ye, not a reason to use their model tbh.


Zu-23 AAA
right its main model is pretty good but it has no lods, bad cols and a shitty wreck model with no lods. So ye we would need to clean this model up in order to get it ingame.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;1888631']Right I've fixed up the mesh, no idea what you did to it but ye, somehow you screwed it up and the rotor meshes too, if you do that again revert to the last good backup and start again :p

Still lots of coding left, for some reason the main rotor wont turn when you jump in, the pilot free camera view has inverted mouse settings right now, also shouldn't the pilot be on the right (is in most aircraft) and you also need to make the wheels rotate. Think you should know the rest you need to do, gl :D

EDIT: and ye btw if I wasn't clear about what I meant before with the rocket pod, basically we want it to look like this fuel tank:
Image

Which we should be able to do by first re-texturing it to be the same colour etc, then adding on child nose and rear cones via code which we make separately :)
Image

wont look perfect but the casual eye shouldn't notice :) [/quote]

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino;1897101']Made some rocket pod caps to the NH-90s to make them look more like fuel tanks, just need texture fixes now which Spush is working on :)
Image
'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino;1897372']I also quickly made a quick belly radar for the French Naval version since Spush did a texture for it :)

Image

refs:
Image
Image



Rocket pod caps still need a bit of fixing but Spush is looking into that :)


[quote="Rice N. Beans""]I think it will be hard to get the money accurately to the INDIVIDUALS responsible for the original asset creation
Money may not go to the right people I would imagine sometimes
May open up a can of worms, cause needless politics in something that ought to be pure enjoyment[/quote]

Ye, this is the real problem. It is seriously difficult to get money involved in these volunteer work we do for free, where also loads of different people work on the same asset. How much should the coder be paid, even thou the code is going to be mostly rewritten by them for their mod, and how much doses the modeller get paid, or the exporter who probably had to make the lods, and how much does the texture artists get, etc? Hardly any one thing is ever made by one person alone because to get something ingame, takes a load of different skill sets, that very few people have all of.
Rice N. Beans wrote:I think time should be traded for time
Such as: "They" agree to a trade if "we" dedicate such-and-such time towards a project of THEIRS
And that's just general team-work rather than a cold transaction

Let me know if this is crazy talk
I'm just an observer on the outside of this project
Ye we do this quite often. In fact, we recently traded our Lynx AH.7 with an upcoming mod, in return for them making a HAS.2 texture for it for us, for PR:F which they have done and very well :D

We also do trade the odd thing with FH2 even, even thou some people think that they don't trade anything, which is untrue, like they gave us their Enfield Rifles and a bunch of other stuff. More recently they even let us use their Bren Mk1/3 and Sten Gun animations, although now we have mostly replaced them with new animations KaB has made becuase they where really just place holders since they where too fast for PR's gameplay and didn't totally fit our models, but we are still using some of them that do which has saved us quite a bit of work and time :)

The biggest problem we have with trading with FH2 is that pretty much all of our stuff is far too modern for them, and the only thing we have been able to trade with them directly is a few trees and bushes which we gave them some time back for the Lee Enfields, but iirc, they didn't actually even end up using them and made some better ones of their own. PR:WW2 is making some assets we could trade with them now but its playing catchup and pretty much all the stuff they are making, FH2 already has so we can't offer any of that either :p
So ye, doing fair trades with them, is pretty hard when we have very little to offer them.
PLODDITHANLEY wrote:I had the impression that FH shared the master server with PR or maybe I'm wrong.
We setup the maser server and invited FH2 to use it with us, which they did, although not sure if they still do or not after the recent DDOS attacks it had, I know there was talk of them going over to their own one but not sure if they made that leap or not?

Re: Other mods not willing to share their assets? Buy them?

Posted: 2016-04-01 13:36
by Valmont
That makes everything 100% clear Rinho thank you for taking your time explaining all this once and for all.

I like the trading part... and since PR lacks the assets that Forgotten Hope wants maybe you could trade python code, ai code etc. I know PR has done some dark magic under the hud for the engine to look this good and be this big and I bet the would be willing to give much for it.

Cheers
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