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The number of players in a squad is hardcoded. However an increase in their size could be beneficial for both squad organization and tactics.
The in game VOIP system limits communication to only fellow squad members, this is not a massive problem in its self, but any increase in squad size would also require an improved VOIP system.
Therefore I propose the use of use of external VOIP software (example being: Teamspeak, referred to below as TS) to create a single squad channel and the creation of 2 – 3/4/5 man squads in the game itself but with the 2 squads using the same TS channel.
The idea is to reflect the almost total, modern day use of separate fire teams among small groups of soldiers, where communication between fire teams can take place fairly easily.

Each separate squad represents 1 fire team, with 2 fire teams in total. For ease of naming I suggest, one is called Fire team Alpha (FA) and the other, Fire team Bravo (FB).
The actual name displayed on the squad list, for FA I suggest is S1 – FA (Squad 1 – Fire team Alpha) and for FB I suggest is S1 – FB (Squad 1 – Fire team Bravo).

This enable other non “Squad 1” players (those not on the S1 TS channel) to easily identify that the 2 supposedly different squads are actually working as one squad.

All players with in "Squad 1" are also totaly clear as to which fire team they are in.
Having no more than 4 in each Fireteam, means a maximum of around 8 players and this is probaly the max number of players that can effectively use 1 channel. This is a increase over the present 6 man squad number but the possible minor decrease in the overall standard of communication is, i believe, totaly made up for in the gain of 2 extra players and the very rigid formation of 2 fireteams.




Fire teams are nothing unless the players know how to take advantage of the simple fact, of the squad being able to focus on 2 different objectives, however similar or different and have a significant and equal number of men engage each objective. This being the principle point of fire teams.

With out realizing the above, the squad’s only possible advantage is that of numbers over the enemy and we all know that is never enough to be successful and therefore all the effort put into organizing the 2 fire teams becomes worthless!

Therefore we must consider in advance the most appropriate tactics to utilize the 2 objective model, with in the present build of PR, not reality. Failure to recognize the distinctions between game and reality results in tactics not being totally designed for the PR environment.

Below I have mentioned the 2 main tactics and I have tried to explain them in the simplest possible terms.

(1) Suppress THEN Move

Made up of 2 objectives:
1) Suppressing the enemy, FB’s Responsibility - stopping them from firing at you by making them think it is to dangerous for them to expose them self’s and fire.

Vital kits: Support gunner – his ability to fire for long periods of time.

Stages: FB moves to a location where there is cover but they can also fire easily on to the enemy’s position.
A single area is selected using a map marker (area example: wall, building/s, construction site or even 50m line).
All of FB begin firing at the same time and do so until either FA enters their line of fire or FA have completed their objective or it is safe for FB to advance with out fire support.

Smoke – Imperative that IF the enemy will become or are aware of, in particular FA’s movement or future movement, every smoke the squad has is placed on top of and just in front of the enemy – obscuring their view as much as possible, thus unable to return accurate fire again you.


2) Moving onto the enemy’s position or a specific location near (example: high ground over looking the enemy position) FA’s Responsibility – gain the advantage of a
NEW position, be it a cleared out flag area or roof top.

Vital kits: Ones with Frag grenades but NO snipers or marksmen.

Stages: An objective is selected using a map marker.
FA moves to a position where FB can cover them with fire and smoke but also where they can reach their objective the safest. This often means flanking – coming around from the side.
Once FB begins suppressing and smoke is up, FA moves from their cover towards
the objective.
FA secures area, allowing FB to move up safely.

Frags (un-line) – Imperative that any suspected enemy position is “fragged” before any of
FA move on to it – even a near miss causes serious blurring of vision for the enemy and
thus makes them easier to kill for a very short period.

.


(2) Multiple angles of Attack

Made up of 2 objectives:


UPDATE SHORTLY,bldy exausted.... *yawn*



It is Vital that all players with in the squad have the same external VOIP software but at present only a small number of players have any of the major ones and I think a significant majority are unsure exactly what it is or how it works.
Solution (un-line): A single thread that clearly explains what it is and how to set it up, including down loads. There is already information provided in the guide and there have been some threads in the past (however I am unsure of the exact nature of these threads) - information posted in General section generaly results in the short term a high uptake amung the commited, quality players.



So what do people think. Is the use of fire teams through the above method practical or at all?
Do you think the tactics are to complex or not appropriate for PR?

I can't even get half the people in my squad to talk to me... I'd love to see how this would be implemented.

You start using ventrillo and we have a deal. lol

It would be hard to get every pubber on a vent, and then organize them. If only the VOIP system could be tweaked.

Your tactics and ideas are dead on, its just getting the to work thats the *****. The devil is always in the details.

I only have Team Speak my self and i think it is the one that is used the most.

GOOD NEWS: iGi TS server at 7:00 GMT has over 6 players on it for a long period of time, sometimes 12 +.

And if you really love realism, then this should be for you. Not giving it a try or considering it, is really limiting the brillaint possiblities PR gameplay has to offer!

Haha not going to happen I can tell you that right now, but the concept is all good. When I played in the Tournament back when this kind of stuff was near impossible to pull off and that was in a practice, structured and rehearsed environment. Might be different now, I wouldn't know.

I AM SOOORY SCAR, becuase this weekend i will attempt to organize the first attempt of the above, lol.

I just cant take the complexity of trying to organize fire teams only to see half of A -team die in one fell swoop and this is the only way i see of achieving what i so desperately want!

Any one who would like to join me on this adventure is welcome.
I am planning to use TS and i will probaly pick one of the medium busy servers like 24,7 Albasara.

The major problem being the auto balance setting, which might mean it could make it very difficult to get all the right players on the same side.

ANy suggestions on hwo to solve this?? Know of a server with out Auto balance??

Best bet, is probaly the iGi server due to their high usage of TS but there map selection is limited in many respects - limit certain tactics.


Not possible in Tourney becuase of limited number of players per team. A true version of this would require 40 per side plus on a map like Al Basara. 3 - 8man squads = 24 players consumed. Then you have another 8 crewmen and 6 pilots = 24 + 14 = 38 = way over BF2 limit.

PM me the address: port +pass

If only i new ^_^, although the iGi one is this:

address: teamspeak.ammobox.net:8771

pass: crow09

Fuzzhead had us running around in 3 fireteams of 2 soldiers in the Squad leader training and that seemed to work quite well. He did say that in the US army 2-man fireteams were the norm and it works quite well - you just have to think about the pairings: stick a rifleman with the ammo-hungry support gunner and stick a medic in with the officer.

I did think that 3 fireteams was a bit complex and if I ever manage to get a squad that might be able to handle this, I'm going to try out with 2 3-man fireteams and see how that works out for me. Maybe I'll move on to 3 fireteams when I get good with 2...

I agree that fireteams are a very nice idea and probably repay the effort required to run them. However, you can manage 2/2/2, 3/3 or even 4/2 soldier fireteams within the standard single squad without any extra effort. Only once we all can manage that effortlessly, should we consider complicating things further.

Oh, and before I forget, if you have 2 or 3 man squads acting as fireteams, then they are going to be completely useless in PR (no rally points especially, but also no restricted kits) unless the devs completely change the game for everyone...which would then mean everyone having to use vent/TS to communicate effectively in PR. I feel that an integrated VOIP systems is one of the major features of BF2 generation games, so I feel that taking that away would cripple the mod for the average non-clan player.

Idealy what you would do is have two squads in PR both with 4 players FT1 and FT2. But all 8 of you would be on the same TS channel. This gives you two rally points and 4 pairs of men. Fire teams work great and splitting off into pairs works fantastic as well.

Top Cat, I remember your suggestion earlier today when you were in my squad.

Good idea and nice playing with ya mate.

im a gree with this idea (by the way well xplained).

its hard to find a good squad that can manage orders and make succesfull drills, i can sign to the idea of making a pro squad

Yea this worked like once. During one of the tourny practices we had. Pain in the *** for the SL though, considering you have to hear your 2 teams talk, and then your section leaders and commanders naggin.

Aside from the obvious problems, most maps for this game aren't well made for it(some are), especially when there are a large amount of players playing(in which you can just imagine an entire squad as a fire team).

I really like the idea! One major drawback is the fact that the number of VOIP-users is currently dropping on servers IMO. There is one, max. two VOIP/teamwork squads per side on most of the servers at prime time .
As much as I like to have something like this implemented, I really doubt the outcome on public servers. In the tournament, we used TS exclusively and those whispers worked pretty well btw.
Maybe we can cut down the proposal to having at least the regarding SL in TS in order to smooth squad tactics out if there is no commander available (which is the case quite often and a pain in the a***).

I was thinking about something similar some time ago. Since I am no coder at all, I did not even start working on it. It is possible to kind of remote control TS via its telnet interface, so you can actually move players on TS to the matching squad channels. It may be possible to use the "internal" BF2-messages and implement some python code to achieve a proper ingame-TS-squad correlation.

Anyway TC, lets give it a try!

rgr

thomaskunze wrote: I was thinking about something similar some time ago. Since I am no coder at all, I did not even start working on it. It is possible to kind of remote control TS via its telnet interface, so you can actually move players on TS to the matching squad channels. It may be possible to use the "internal" BF2-messages and implement some python code to achieve a proper ingame-TS-squad correlation.

I like it, I am seriosuly no coder but i have also wondered if it where possible to some how link BF2 with external VOIP software some how.

@ DEVs: have you considered this AND is there a possiblity it might work?

OiSkout wrote:Yea this worked like once. During one of the tourny practices we had. Pain in the *** for the SL though, considering you have to hear your 2 teams talk, and then your section leaders and commanders naggin.

Aside from the obvious problems, most maps for this game aren't well made for it(some are), especially when there are a large amount of players playing(in which you can just imagine an entire squad as a fire team).

I do understand the complications of large numbers of players communicating on the same channel however i did mention in the orginal post that it is a small sacrafise worth taking.

But there are methods to reduce confusion over the air ways:

1) Learn to regonise FA leader and FB leaders voise. FB leader being the SL for all the men.

2) Keep communications short and simple, for example: 1 man from FA dies, he then says: "FA, one south east of SL, pulling back" .
This 8 word sentance, has clearly stated which players much listen and the location of an emeny that killed a player already and his status (enemy getting closer or retreating ext.) 1 player from FA dies, then his cousins brothers sisters uncle, who married... says "O sht, i am down, i think the guy who got me is to the south east of your possition squad leader and ..........yer, he is running away towards that tree...."

THerefore, it is quite simple and extremely quick to communicate large ammounts of information over 1 channel and if all players communicate in such a way, the many problems that are already appearent in a 6 man squad (too much chatter from S memebers and CO) should actualy decrease, even with the introduction of an extra 2 men.
Contraints will be put on the system but for the enemy, the thought of 8, highly organized and efficient communciators attacking from both their north and south, is enough to make them think that they will have to up their game or die shorty and almost certain repeatidly in the long run!


P.S A NOTE FOR IMPLAMENTING THE ORGINAL IDEA:

I will use Team SPeak becuase it is what i have, and i have some idea how to use it.

POssibly on friday evening (9:00 GMT ish), if not, definetely Saturday evening (7:00 GMT onwards).

I intend to use the iGi server and i will create a squad called "TEAM-S ONLY", and hopefully, another shortly, named "TS2 - ONLY". The aim is to ensure all players are using TS, any that are not will be asked to join the iGi TS server and if they dont have TS i will tell them where to down load it and ask em to leave but beg them to come back when they have it!

It might take a game or 2, to get enough numbers. 8 is the goal and what is really needed becuase you want a Officer kit in each squad, otherwise spwning becomes really difficult.

I estimate a 65% failure rate for creating 2 fully functioning fireteams on the first attempt. This being due to lack of TS players and my personal inexperince but both areas should improve greatly over the subsequent attempts and..........SUCCESSES, lol

Top _Cat the great wrote:I AM SOOORY SCAR, becuase this weekend i will attempt to organize the first attempt of the above, lol.

I just cant take the complexity of trying to organize fire teams only to see half of A -team die in one fell swoop and this is the only way i see of achieving what i so desperately want!

Any one who would like to join me on this adventure is welcome.
I am planning to use TS and i will probaly pick one of the medium busy servers like 24,7 Albasara.

The major problem being the auto balance setting, which might mean it could make it very difficult to get all the right players on the same side.

ANy suggestions on hwo to solve this?? Know of a server with out Auto balance??

Best bet, is probaly the iGi server due to their high usage of TS but there map selection is limited in many respects - limit certain tactics.

We have been running all the maps (well the ones that don't crash) since 0.5 came out. (Minus Greasy Mullet and a couple of the older currently unbalanced ones) Now we have the server patch though we can run them all.

Anyway, for the record, we have been using the 2 fireteams on one TS channel for ages to good effect. We don't generally encourage people to join our TS though as we tend to juggle who is in our squads depending on what .:iGi:. members are on so it's far easier to keep the public players who make up the numbers in our squads kickable as we always have 2 .:iGi:. as the 2 SL's. Saying that though, good players who are willing to speak are welcome and won't be kicked from our squads/TS.

Anyway, you are welcome to try out what you're saying on our TS. I've already got USMC1/2/3/4and MEC1/2/3/4 made up so you can use them.

I like this idea also and I would like to participate.

.:iGi:.U.G.H. wrote:Now we have the server patch though we can run them all.

Anyway, for the record, we have been using the 2 fireteams on one TS channel for ages to good effect. We don't generally encourage people to join our TS though as we tend to juggle who is in our squads depending on what .:iGi:. members are on so it's far easier to keep the public players who make up the numbers in our squads kickable as we always have 2 .:iGi:. as the 2 SL's. Saying that though, good players who are willing to speak are welcome and won't be kicked from our squads/TS.

Anyway, you are welcome to try out what you're saying on our TS. I've already got USMC1/2/3/4and MEC1/2/3/4 made up so you can use them.

Great to hear and thanks alot. I am extremely gratefull for the offer of your TS server and i must apologise for failing to ask for permision earlier, for use of it by the general iGi server (s -YES) going public.

I am also estatic and over the moon by the introduction of a 2nd..... : (nudge nudge hint hint, "the second coming") .....shhh, cant let them all know, it is too good to be true!!!

Serisouly, thanks alot, with the new server update, PR combined with iGi has never looked and played this good!

FIRE TEAM UPDATE:

I will be using the 1 of the 2 iGi servers. If possible, the british one but see how things go.

I will create a squad named "TS 1 ONLY", all those with TS are extremely welcome to join.
For the moment i will just use 1 squad becuase i dont believe we will have 8 players with TS on the same team, but i am sure with in a few days we wil be able to form up the 2 fireteams properly.

The TS server that i will use will be (big cheers to iGi) the TS iGi server.
The server details:

teamspeak.ammobox.net:8771

crow09

WILL HAPPILY REMOVE them from this thread and PM them only players who want to take part, if you (iGi) would rather a certain degree of secrecy - decent players and no "yobs" was kept.