Project Reality Forums

Hi all,

I've noticed recently that many people on the forums say they would like PR move in a direction of less "Running and Gunning". I firmly put myself in this camp as well, I think a slower pace of gameplay would make PR more tactical, more realistic, and would greatly promote teamwork. So I thought it might be useful to explore the following questions:

1) What is running and gunning?
2) Do we want to reduce it?
3) If yes, then firstly why do people run and gun?
4) Given this how do we reduce it?

This is really intended to be an exploration of the problem, so I'm going to shy away from making specific suggestions. I will however try to categorise the kind of things an idea should achieve.

Please note that although my writing style tends to be a little authoritative, all of this is 100% my opinion, which may of course be 100% wrong It's also rather long so if you don't like long posts, feel free to ignore this one

--- 1) What is running and gunning? ---

Running and gunning is also refered to as "rambo style" and "fast gameplay".

I would argue that "Running and Gunning" is about player mindset: when a player decides that being somewhere else is more important that not dying they 'Run and Gun'. It is characterised by charging at the objective, dying, respawning and repeating.

I think it's also one of the two main differences between PR and vBF2, vBF2 is almost 100% pure run and gun whereas PR does contain more tactical thought.

--- 2) Do we want to reduce it? ---

I would argue a big yes here, I feel a slower more tactical style of play would be great for PR in several ways.

The most important is that it would encourage teamwork. One main difference between PR and vBF2 is that PR is more tactical, the other is that PR contains more teamwork. I don't think this is a coincidence, to me tactics and teamplay go hand in hand.

Consider the kind of things we might see if people didn't run and gun: carefully planned and executed squad tactics; suppressive and covering fire; flanking and pincer movements; strategic retreat; formations and fireteams; an emphasis on good spotting and observation; inter-squad coordination.

These things require tremendous communication and teamwork, they also require a slower pace. If the gameplay pace is too fast there's no time to organise them and the tactics default to "everyone charge at the flag" because you just don't have time for anything more complicated.

Another main bonus is that it's more realistic, real squads go slowly and cautiously. I also think tactics and strategy are worthy in themselves, and it helps differentiate PR from vBF2.

--- 3) Why do people run and gun? ---

This is the big question, but I think the answer is actually quite simple.

Most players want their team to win, and they play to ensure that happens. Some players only play for a high kill count, but in my experience most people play for the team.

The gameplay mechanics are such that in order for a team to win:
- capturing flags is extremely important
- player death is fairly unimportant

The result is that players tend to rush in to capture flags and pay little regard to whether they might die in the process, in other words: run and gun for the win.

Consider flag capturing: the team wins by reducing the enemy tickets to zero, before there tickets are lost. There are two main ways to do this:
- Capturing and holding flags, which changes the ticket bleed. It also positively effects which flags can be captured by friends and foes.
- Killing the enemy more than your team dies, each kill results in a one ticket difference

Of the two capturing and holding flags is vastly the more important. A team where everyone opted to hide, camp and snipe the opposition would probably have a very high kills versus deaths, but they'd almost certainly lose.

Death, in comparison, has a very small effect on winning. The consequences are minimal, both personally and in terms of team goals. The time most people spend "out of the action" is really very small, consider what happens when you die:
- Your medic might revive you
- Even if he doesn't you can probably spawn back on the squad leader in about 30 seconds
- Even if your squad leader is dead, you probably have a nearby rally point
- Even if your rally point is down, there's probably an APC near by
- As a final resort you can spawn at main base

Moreover rally points are easy to place and APCs are fairly easy to come by, being forced to spawn at the main base is very rare.

The team losses are small, one ticket and one player unable to help the team for a short period of time. The personal losses are also small, being out of the action for a small period of time.

--- 4) Given this how do we reduce it? ---

As stated earlier, I'm going to try to avoid making very specific suggestions.

I would argue that it is impossible to reduce running and gunning unless we change the gameplay mechanics. People will always run and gun if that is the tactic that ensures their team is going to win. The obvious way to change the gameplay mechanics to reduce running and gunning is to make capturing flags less important and/or to make player deaths more important.

It would be possible to make flag capture less important by slowing down the ticket bleed due to flag capture and/or increasing the ticket loss due to death. The disadvantage of this is that 'tragedy of the commons' could be a problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Because the negative consequences of running and gunning are shared among the team whereas the positives contain an 'individual' element (score, reputation, frag count), it could encourage selfishness.

It could also be taken too far, making flag capturing virtually unimportant. In which case everyone goes into the woods and snipes, and that's not productive for teamplay.

The other options is to increase the importance of death (individually). The main ways to achieve this would be:
a) increase the respawn time
b) reduce the respawn/revive options, giving them a longer walk back into the action.

The disadvantage of a) is that some people may find a long wait frustrating. Personally I wouldn't mind a longer wait on death if it encouraged slow and cautious play, even several minutes would be fine from my point of view. But not everyone will agree.

Care would also have to be taken not to make the medic overpowered, it would probably be necessary to say players could only be revived in the first 30 seconds or something.

The disadvantage of b) is that without care it could easily fragment the team and discourage teamplay. I think anything that discourages teamplay would be against what PR is trying to achieve. One possible solutions would be some kind of wave system, whereby squads are forced to respawn together in some way. This might work well if a suitable system can be found.

--- Conclusion ---

Hopefully this exploration has proved useful, and as I say I'd love to receive thoughts, comments and suggestions

I like this thread. Nice ideas even if I'd hate the frustration of a longer spawn but I would love the better game play. I can also admit that the longer spawn time would benefit me: I could practice keyboard/guitar/bass or p p p p pickup a Penguin (even with the lame jokes on the back) or grab a bottle

Sorry but I don't see all that "running and gunning", sure it depends from guys in your squad, new players tend to play PR in a BF2 vanilla style but soon they'll discover it's not the case... or they leave PR.
Sure you ever move fast from cover to cover perhaps to flank an enemy position but a frontal assault to enemy in sight never pay, imho. The only occasion where I run directly on the enemy is when I'm unnoticed and close enough to make a short run and place the kill at point blank, it's dangerous and not so smart but affect the enemy's morale !

Nice post. I don't know the answer to the run-n-gun question but I think you're right about the playing to win. I don't find to many players now that just want high score. Most squads are going for the win and will do what ever they can to make this happen. This can lead to a bit more aggresive tactics as long as you have a safe way to respawn. The current 30 sec + spawn time is pretty good I think. It's long enough that you can't jump right into the action but not so long that that your of no consequence. I worry that a longer spawn time may reduce some of the intensity of fire fights. I could see increasing the spawn time slightly but not by a minute or two.

Some interesting and good points made, nice one shader. I do agree with you that running and gunning style gameplay is used too much and too often in PR. However this does not mean, it is any more or less common than tactical gameplay employed by players, but on the servers i play, it is less. Running and gunning style as you siad, is directly reflected in the high number of deaths.

Death is affecte by equipement, gameplay designs and most importantly player tactics (what you do with the equipement and how you move ext.)

In terms of tacitcs, for me, 80% of the time or more, I use absolutely every tactic i can or more precicely i know to avoid death ((namely the kits i choose, flanking routs, squad orgnization (pointmne ext.), carefull movements in cities ext.)).

However using tactics, with the sole aim of staying alive, i still die, a fair bit, not massively, normaly alittle under the average for the server but sometimes over.

An increase in spwn times, would impact the tactics i used, namely an increase in those that avoid combat (longer flanking routs), but this increase would only be slight compared to the significant decrease in fun incured.

I do totaly agree with you on the wave spwning system, and good news is that i think the DEVs are working on creating one as we speak and there is a very very small chance there might be someform of wave respwning system in 0.6 (DEV, egg i think mentioned something a month or so back).

ElPube wrote:Sorry but I don't see all that "running and gunning"

That's interesting perhaps I should add a question "Do people run and gun?".

It's all relative though. I only really play in 'VOIP' and 'TEAMWORK' squads, (generally on the Tactical Gamer server). I find I die at least every couple of minutes, and judging by the rest of the squad, that's pretty typical.

To my tastes that's running and gunning, I'd rather it was slower. Scout round the location, form tactics, call in support, have one fireteam lay down suppressive fire while the other flanks, retreat and regroup if in a bad position.

But perhaps other people have a different idea of what constitutes "running and gunning" , or perhaps people just play on different servers to me

i dont agree with point 3, ive run and gun in games because that is the way the game is meant to be played, Battlefield 2 is not a tactical game, and PR is not a tactical mod, sure, its suped up the weapons, but you cant change the way people play, and they WONT change the way people play, if you want tactical, go play Rainbow Six.

Face it, R&G happens in real life. It shouldn't be THIS effective, but it should still happen in short bursts.

Strafing while laying down suppressive fire so your team can move is NOT a ramboism.

Rushing an entire squad and killing them all with a single noob tube IS, however.

The BF2 engine prevents many many changes that would effectively remove running and gunning style. There are too major types, squad organization and communication (largers ones, preorganized fire teams) and then character and weapon movements, design (no prone spamming, lean, disabaling of limbs, rest of gun on wall).

However, PR can implament many other changes to decrease the effectiveness of running and gunnign, the best being 500m draw distances + and massive maps. At long range, running and gunning is impossible.

So i suggest we focus now on ideas, to decrease the effectivenss of R and G, rather than on whether it is effective (would not have this thread if it was not - still able to capture flags and kill - we need to reduse the extent one can do so with out death) or TopCats brilliants ideas (jkes), Unreal3. here was come!

p.s blackwaterdeddie i can be very perswasive.....cracks 2 -4 man fireteam, no defribualor revive and arm, leg disabling nuckles, trust me, i can know how to end R and G for ever, or more precisely give a select intelligent few the way to make them selfs invinsible to it! MUHAAA

I have been playing for a little over a year now and "RnG" is far less prevalent now than it was in .3 when I started.
The tactical squads already move slow and often lead the team in points despite their lower KDRs.
The commander changes upcoming will slow the action by forcing more teamwork to support the commander.
I would support a longer spawn time as well because that is the only way to get people to value the lives of their character and that is the key to stopping RnG tactics.
I have never played R6 online so I can only take your word for it about it being more tactical than PR but that is not to say that PR cannot achieve a slower game-pace with all the neat tricks they perform on the engine.
The flip side of the argument is that there are the times that a vigorous charge can win the day but everyone is too cautious so make the plunge.
I had the idea of reserve squads some time ago and I think with increased spawn times or increased penalties for deaths that a squad with no deaths, held in rear areas to guard the flanks can make a huge difference in the final assault.

Every time I play Armed Assault and then come back to PR I feel disgusted by all the running, jumping and reloading while sprinting all over the place.

Well, for the past couple of years ive been playing Joint Operations, huge maps and maximum 150 players on one server

and i have to say, you see more run and gun there than you do here, no matter how long the distance, people will find ways to spam and run and gun.

I'm very much looking forward to the larger maps in .6 it should be fun. However, I agree, I don't think they'll help with R&G very much.

For me R&G is about choosing to put yourself in a situation which excessively prioritizes the objective over survival. You can do that at 10 meters and you can do it at 1000 meters.

it's much easier to shoot you @ 1000m w/ a tank gun.
That should dissuade you from running and gunning because you won't live long enough to make it worthwhile.

There are a lot of factors that make run-n-gun ineffective in real life, that aren't present in PR. I find that a lot of the time, when slowly advancing on a position in close quarters, I'll get an enemy popping from behind the corner, diving into a prone position and shooting me in the face. Suppressive fire is largely ineffective in the game, compared to how effective it is in real life. All this makes RnG a valid tactic in game, since it can actually work.

I don't think punishing people is really going to solve anything here. Forcing people to play one way by punishing them if they play another way usually leads to the game being less fun, even for people who do play the right way. If there was a way to make tactical advancement work way better, compared to ramboing, I'm sure a lot of people would prefer that. Unfortunately, there's very little that can actually be done, due to engine limitations. However, things like more effective suppressive fire could help.

I RnG because it's hard to find a squad that plays like I do. I don't tard rush I probe defenses and fall back, so I'd call it HnR (hit and run). I find that most squads even if they stick together they push forward, but never break contact and re-engage so what you get is squads getting wasted in groups. RnG happens for various reasons but for me it's player based and not game (code) based problems.

This is a BF2 mod not a tactical game, so the player base comes from RnG madness and then is expected to learn how to play tactically, which is an up hill battle. The game itself is too limited in the realism area and modding it slowly takes way too long to create the proper experience.

Sorry guys....
When i play maps like Mao Valley i almost always spam the battlefield and "run and gun".
When i get that beautiful AK-47 assault rifle, my brain just get a meltdown and i just run around and kill everything i see....

Suppressing fire is effective irl, because you CARE about your life - unlike in game. Basically I see no way in making a pc gamer care about his virtual life, as death and injury have no effect on his real body. "It's all in your mind" I'd say.

Or maybe there is a way? Possibly by introducing few 'tutorials' or movie clips full of tactical aspects of the game. We need to teach teamwork, so RnG'ers will learn that their behavior is ruining whole concept of Reality Mod.

Role playing games experience could have massive influence on how gamers would see themselves in game - aware of possible injury and death equal to failure, gamer would focus on teamwork and survival - instead of high fragrate.

In other words - there's no way you can force one to play your style - he needs to understand and accept rules you play (and obviously you can make him understand these, using few psychological tricks unfortunately unknown to me).
A player must want to play with team, rules have to be inside his mental attitude, not in the game.

daranz wrote:Forcing people to play one way by punishing them if they play another way usually leads to the game being less fun, even for people who do play the right way.

How so?

Run and gun lonewolfing is, unfortunately, a very effective tactic in PR. Especially with smaller servers. On a small server I can easily get at least a 5:1 KDR if I lonewolf. If you're working together in a full squad, you're more likely to be seen, and so I find you're more likely to die. So I'm not sure if raising the spawn time will fix the run and gun style on small servers.

But it will make things like coverfire more effective, and it will probably slow down the gameplay on larger servers.

If I had my way, spawn times would be 5 minutes, and reinforcements would come in waves by squad.