Project Reality Forums

The mechanisms of visual fusion and stereopsis do not apply beyond 50 feet in the real world and don't apply at all in flat anamorphic/panamorphic projected 3D games.... In lay English we don't have binocular 3D depth perception beyond 50 feet in the real world or at all in games; but all the monocular vision cues for distance depth perception do apply in games: Relative Size, Interposition, Linear Perspective, Aerial Perspective/Relative Color, Light & Shadow, Texture Gradient, and Movement Parallax...

When a 2D overlay is placed on a 3D game screen it causes you to shift your focus to an object with no apparent depth cues, that in fact has no relative depth to the game world, and back (and forth) to the game; you brain can't properly fuse this information and the game looks flatter and is less immersive for it.

Here's one illustration; even though the Developers were aware of the effect, and have done an excellent job of minimizing all Raven Shield HUD assets by adding alpha transparency, and that the RS HUD occupies less screen real estate than the current PRM HUD -- notice the difference of playing with the HUD toggled off:



Larger HUDs make this difference even more immediately apparent but even the smallest 2D overlay do the same amount of damage in breaking depth cues, and making the game less immersive... Game Publishers know this, and this is why they typically post images (especially for print press) of their games HUD-less; here's an example with BF2:



In either case you can make the best comparison by viewing the images full-screen and swapping them, but the effect is vastly more dramatic 'in-game' where you're constantly using motion parallax... You can try this experiment in BF2/PRM; type "renderer.drawHud 0" in your console to turn off all HUD assets... If you're used to (and prefer) ironsights, and use the large map for situational awareness you'll be suprised how little this costs you in the way of your in game performance and in fact will often improve it; what may surprise you is how much more immersive and 'you are there' the game will feel sans HUD.

Game capability is well past the point where all immediate HUD elements, except perhaps the message console can be totally eliminated from the game with no consequence or negative impact on game-play. I believe most will find game-play not only more realistic, and immersive; but the removal of the HUD (where everyone has the same limitations) will add new depth to game-play they have been seeking in more realistic games and mods but not finding.

Here are some examples of the realistic and qualitative outcomes of removing HUD elements and/or replacing them with more realistic alternatives:


No Damage Meter

In the real world when gun shot (I've been there) you don't know how 'damaged' you are as far as how long you're going to last, or how far you can go without help -- it's a very grey area that's both very subjective and in the fuzzy complexity of exit ballistics, how bad your bleeding, where you're hit or injured, the caliber of the munition that hit you -- the list of variables is endless and the point is: well outside the scope of any 'fun game' to consider at any depth...

In game PRM already has the very cool and original 'Hit Tunnel Effects', and not very cool injury Sound Foley (I'm a Sound Engineer)... Point being we have very realistic effects in the game and don't need a damage meter of any kind. Sans the Damage Meter we don't have to think about anything beyond the fact that we're relatively injured and more vulnerable and need to be even more attentive to the game and our surroundings -- something a damage meter totally detracts from...

Vehicles have their own damage meters via the realistic alarms, they also smoke like chimneys when critically hit -- so the bar magic 'damage' bar can completely go IMHO....


No Spin Map

This is the main target of my post, as I despise all it represents, and all the game-play and game performance issues it introduces. S

Summarily the Spin Map:

· is a screen real estate hog & resource pig
· negatively impacts 'in-game' situational awareness
· breaks game immersivness & 3D depth cues
· is realistically obviated by the more realistic tactical maps

In a nutshell I hope the PRM team will give serious consideration to ditching the 'Spin Map' entirely! BF2/PRM already has much more realistic tactical maps that have a more realistic cause/effect gestalt in their use.

There is no real world, arcade, always-on, real-time, battlefield telemetry that offers a fraction of the information the magic 'Spin Map' offers. The BF2/PRM tactical maps still convey an enormous volume of questionably realistic real-time telemetry for the lost and confused, and is only a key press away...

The effects of removing the 'Spin Map' could only be positive with respect to game-play; Squad members will have to more realistically focus on in-game situational awareness, make more of an effort to move and maneuver as squads staying in line-of-sight of their squad mates, and have to tell them of their intentions -- reinforcing communication, cohesion, and in the outcome the quality of game-play...


Message Console Adjustments

The text message console could be made less obtrusive and at the same time more readable by using a smaller and better font, adding alpha transparency, and repositioning... Perhaps these could even be offered as adjustable settings in the

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I completely agree. The perfect game wouldnt have any onscreen items: It would all be popups or visual 3D representations. Want to know you ammo count? Well take out the clip and check! Want to know your health? If you pat your stomach and it turns dark red, you have a problem.

However, there are problems... First, you need an engine you can deep code so you can make great alternatives to 2D overlays. Secondly, some things just HAVE to be there. Although that's basicly only the chat text... But still, cant get rid of everything.

Sidenote: Since its a mod I assume any problems regarding the intelligence or state of the person playing (deaf need text etc) are ignored

Many HUD overlays don't need alternatives that aren't already in the game; PRM already has a lot of these:

· damage meter vs. PRM view tunnel effects & sound foley
· ammo counter vs. PRM use your head and count
· Spin Map vs. use the Tactical Maps

Mostly I'd just like to see the 'Spin Map' GONE... I feel the effects would be nothing but positive on game play and the game's aesthetic. All the information in the Spin Map is readily available in the Tactical Maps, so nothing is lot, and a lot can be gained by encouraging players to actually use it's more realistic and helpful features.

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True, although another problem arise: How are you going to know where a spotted item is? Or people wanting a pickup? It only show on the minimap even if you see the soldier text flash on the 3d map.

But then again maybe that's a sacrifice one have to make for the sake of realism and immersion. Its not like real people suddenly start to flash red on a map everyone can see cause someone has spotted you. In theory there should always be a functional communication between the commander (can see objects on the map), the squadleader (get told by the commander) and the squadmember (get told by the squadleader). In practise that is hard to accomplish...

Question is how much PR wish to demand of players.

What? I'm pretty sure that all the 'spotted' players also show on the Tactical Map, not just the Spin Map... Even if that was not the case (and my game is the only one so bugged), and it was felt this arcade/magic, real-time feature was somehow essential I can't imagine it would be that hard to script the feature from the Spin Map to the Tactical Map -- which I believe it already is...

I don't think asking the player to press a key to see the Tactical Map is 'demanding' much of the Players; it's actually offering them more; i.e. encouraging them to use the features of the more realistic Tactical Map that actually helps and encourages team work -- with the added benefit of a more immersive and realistic perspective/HUD... This has worked fine in many more realistic games like Ghost Recon, Raven Shield, Red Orchestra, America's Army, OFP, Close Combat (and even more mods); I don't see why it couldn't work as well or better in PRM...

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Uh, yeah, I didnt think on the tactical map, I just assumed removal of the minimap. Right, it probably show there.

But bringing that up everytime isnt very good either. Would be nice with directional indicators ("Enemy tank spotted, NW 200m!"). You have to see the friendly to guess where though.

Well I'm sorry I thought PRM was about more realism, not 'more, faster, more spamtastic, speedy arcade magic action'...

I do fine in BF2 without the magic space craft telemetry of the 'Spin Map', I've got all may rank and teamwork score with it turned off by cranking up the alpha channel all the way. Similarly I do fine in other realism games and mods that don't offer magic arcade telemetry...

I was just hoping that PRM might move a little further from the 'Arcade/Action' genre and a little closer to the Tactical Realism end of the spectrum -- but I suppose the arcade expectations of too many BF2 Fans might be crushed at a mod that was actually too different from the vanilla game...

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hoak wrote:Well I'm sorry I thought PRM was about more realism, not 'more, faster, more spamtastic, speedy arcade magic action'...

Don't be sorry because that is right. Now I'm sorry, but might i ask what made you think otherwise?

I totaly agree with Hoak's first post, had alpha turned down as well Still, I think there needs to be sOmEtHiNg there on the HUD, but it would be a nice addidion if it would be toggleable . . .

Aah, old Wolfenstein days when you either pressed + or - to increase / decrease the HUD (and HUD features as well)

Edit: Just a suggestion - how about changing the ammo and health bars like this -> you´d only have 2 tiny boxes on the bottom corners of your screen (or the med and ammo signs from BF respectively), one for health the other for ammo . . .
The boxes would go green - orange - red giving you an indication of the status . . .

'[R-PUB wrote:Wolfmaster']Don't be sorry because that is right. Now I'm sorry, but might i ask what made you think otherwise?

Hmm, I guess it's that there are still so many arcady Counter-Strike like goo-gaws still in the mod that are so conspicously obvious to serious realism and tactical realism Fans that would be easy to remove/edit...

On the one hand I can see trying to appeal to the wider BF2 audience, but on the other too much vanilla BF2 arcade foof is going to estrange a more serious TR audience from the mod (or from even trying it).

I would hope that the PRM team would like to err on the side of a little more realism rather then less, or at least offer the option (server side) where possible; as it seems to me there will not be enough to compel a serious TR audience or the vanilla BF2 audience to play PRM if the mod goes too far in trying to be all things to all people...

Good/serious Tactical Realism game design is about a lot more then just scale weapon metrics...

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Well, the fact that there still are those 'arcady features' has to do with several things. First of all, the mod is far from finished. Remember, the minimod is meant to give a small taste of what the full mod will be.

Second, some things are necessary for good gameplay such as respawns etc. Now, I know no respawns works/worked in AA but the maps there are smaller so people die faster (so you don't have to wait very long until the round ends).

Third, some things are very hard if not impossible to change or place in thanks to the way Battlefield 2 is coded. It's not open source or something. The core of the game is hardcoded and thus unchangable.

On the point of hoping Project Reality brings in as much realism as possible (unless it will empty the servers), I totally agree with you. However, I don't agree that the mod isn't on the right track on that.

Hoak, I absolutely agree.

I posted a suggestion like this before. The HUD clutter completely ruins the immersion factor. If I have time tonight I’ll test out the "renderer.drawHud 0" command.

I want to see everything removed from the screen except the small rate of fire/mag hud you guys made that’s on the bottom right, but maybe even that could be taken off if you can bring it up with a press of a button.

1) As I suggested before, you should have to press M or whatever the default map key is (I use a button on my mouse) to bring up the map AND there should also be a compass button, so you can say what direction to go to or what direction the spotted enemy is (ala OFP).

2) About the chat text....maybe have an alert letting you know someone has typed something by having a SMALL solid or blinking light on the bottom left-hand of your screen. So when you see this (the light or some other method you can think of) make it so you have to press a button to bring up the CHAT BOX (you could also press the ~ key). After all we are playing PC games with a KEYBOARD, right? We have advantages over a console controller, so lets use them!

3) And lastly, do something about the team tags. It’s annoying and unrealistic to see all your teammate’s names above they’re head. I would like to see them completely removed, sure we might see a little more team killing then normal, but we should all have to think before we fire.

If you absolutely think it’s necessary to have some kind of visual cue to keep from team killing, maybe just have a small blue dot over they’re head instead of the full name. This is just the first thing that came to mind, I’m sure there’s a better method than this one.

And I guess that’s it......

all this talk about the bf2 engine being difficult to mod...

what does that say about the future of the pr mod? It sounds inhibitive.

Yes, I think the mini-map should be removed so that players must use the regular map to view the locations of friendlies and flags.

i think it should just be made so that it only displayes a 30m area around yourself, it substitutes for the poor situational awareness games afford the player.

dawdler wrote:True, although another problem arise: How are you going to know where a spotted item is? Or people wanting a pickup? It only show on the minimap even if you see the soldier text flash on the 3d map.

But then again maybe that's a sacrifice one have to make for the sake of realism and immersion. Its not like real people suddenly start to flash red on a map everyone can see cause someone has spotted you. In theory there should always be a functional communication between the commander (can see objects on the map), the squadleader (get told by the commander) and the squadmember (get told by the squadleader). In practise that is hard to accomplish...

Question is how much PR wish to demand of players.

IMHO the map should be gone as well as many other things, but, with the pickups, it would be nice to have a toggle button to bring up a full screen map (tab/caps lock, been a while) so you can see where it is on the map. If you play enough you will know the level like the back of your hand anyway.....

[quote="[R-PUB]Wolfmaster']Well, the fact that there still are those 'arcady features' has to do with several things.[/quote]
Specifically the 'Spin Map' and the 'Damage Bar Graph' serve no purpose that is not redundant and better served by more realistic features already part of BF2/PRM. In the case of the 'Spin Map' we have a togglable full screen map that's much more realistic, offers ALL the information of the 'Spin Map', and offers it in a more realistic context that does not interfere with the aesthetic and performance of the game...

'[R-PUB wrote:Wolfmaster']Second, some things are necessary for good gameplay such as respawns etc. Now, I know no respawns works/worked in AA but the maps there are smaller so people die faster (so you don't have to wait very long until the round ends).

I don't know where or how you brought respawning and/or reinforcement into the discussion, this was intended to be a thread about quote: "Realism HUD Design""]Wolfmaster']Third, some things are very hard if not impossible to change or place in thanks to the way Battlefield 2 is coded. It's not open source or something. The core of the game is hardcoded and thus unchangable.[/quote]
None of the features I've suggested changing are "hard" or "impossible to change", in fact they are all simple cut and paste script edits and require no additional game art assets or source level editing...

[R-PUB]Wolfmaster']However, I don't agree that the mod isn't on the right track on that.[/quote] I never said or meant to imply that it wasn't wrote:BrokenArrow']i think it should just be made so that it only displayes a 30m area around yourself, it substitutes for the poor situational awareness games afford the player.

If you mean that the magic 'Spin Map' should only display a 15 meter radius (or 30 meter radius) area, I don't understand the value in such an approach as you can easily see to that distance directly by line-of-sight; any team making any initiative to coordinate their efforts as a squad can clearly see each other at these distances in BF2/PRM, and game play would be the better for their making that effort 'in-the-game' directly rather then from magical telemetry...

As far as the tactical map is concerned I think the telemetry there should refelct the real time reconnosance capability of real side scan and look down satalite reconnosance, and the camera and ECC reconnocance capabilities of a UAV... Perahps the telemetry should update more slowly, which might well benefit game performance for everyone, and make real in game reconnosance a more active, immersive and meaningful role.

I do agree that the flat anamorphically projected 3d pseudo first person perspective in FPS games does unrealistically constrain perspective and situational awareness; but don't believe arcade magic real-time 'Gay-Dar' is the best solution to the problem.

If the desire is to offer a perspective that better supports more realistic RTFA squad tactical maneuver -- IMHO a much better approach and one that can and already has been executed in BF2 script modding is to offer a togggleable third person perspective. As some would groan, kick and scream at the prospect, and others might not fully appreciate the benefits (summarily First Person offers a more realistic perspective, where a third person perspective can offer more realistic squad maneuver, coordination and tactics) it could easily be offered as a server side option...

Similarly, if some are just too reticent to give up the arcade magic of the 'Spin Map', or Star Trek medical telemetry of the 'Damage Bar Graph' perhaps they could be offered as server side options for those fans that do prefer a game with a more realistic and immersive interface.

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Rg wrote:Hoak, I absolutely agree.

1) As I suggested before, you should have to press M or whatever the default map key is (I use a button on my mouse) to bring up the map AND there should also be a compass button, so you can say what direction to go to or what direction the spotted enemy is (ala OFP).

Absolutely! Map / Directions / Spots should be visible only via some GPS / Big Map / Compass system so you'd have to look and couldn't do anything else in the meantime. Maybe spots or waypoints could be highlited on the compass?

Anyone here played Vietcong? Great fps. very 'real', you could play with nothing on the screen at all (hud) and it was awesome.

JuRrO, the stock BF2 Tactical Maps already offer all these featues; except as Rg suggests a compass...



But take a look; the tactical map already offers a relative compass with your dynamic locus icon via showing you the direction your pointed and what geographical objective, or objects (and/or ememy and friendlies) you're facing.

The vanilla BF2 Tactical Map also already offers excellent real-time tactical way-pointing, real-time reconnaissance -- the only thing I can imagine would be worth adding would be a simple coarse alpha-numeric grid to help squads better navigate and coordinate, and a compass as Rg suggests (if the script supports it).

The 'Spin Map' is an arcade toy for the lazy and spam frenzy focused Action Realism Fan that wants zero tactical effort and virtually complete concomitant lack of tactical sophistication and realism. The virtually complete lack of team work in vanilla BF2, even with the enormous game feature set that's there to reinforce and reward it is testament that Arcade features, idiot lights, bells and whistles just don't get the job done.

Tactical Realism by definition emphasizes tactics and objectives over shooting and killing... Mass-murder and body counts are never a tactical or strategic objective in real warfare except in epistemologically motivated wars of genocide...

In most successful Tactical Realism games killing is realistically challenging, requiring realistic scale weapon handling, ammunition management and marksmanship -- and the whole initiative of killing is very secondary to objectives which require navigation, and team coordination to reach and achieve -- and the team work involved in reconnaissance, realistic squad maneuver, is as much or more a part of the 'game-play' as virtually blowing an opposing players brains all over the landscape...

Spin Maps, excessive magic telemetry, IFF names and markers virtually without exception dumb games down and turn them into random spam death-matches where the only 'realism in the game is the paint job...

Oops, I'm foaming at the mouth; didn't mean to get so ranty here, but as a long term Game Designer and one a strongest advocates of the TR genre -- I know I get a little carried away...