Project Reality Forums

Bf2 has one of the best respawn systems in Action Realism gaming I know of, but it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of realism, and as many have commented here it places absolutely no value on player life as playing with the prevailing hell-may-care suicidal 'Rambo' approach works fart too well...


Summery Flaws In Bf2's Respawn System For Tactical Realism

Players magically respawn as if beamed from nowhere has obvious aesthetic issues as far as realism is concerned. The respawning player can also be camped where and when the position of respawns on a map are learned and instantly killed... And the respawning player can shoot and kill from a position of magic surprise when the position of respawn is not known.

Bf2's respawn generator is a simple clock that doesn't really scale or abstract anything remotely realistc... There's little to no perceived consequence to dieing in Bf2, in fact deliberate suicide or just dieing in many circumstances can be exploited as powerful and too often, to very unrealistic tactical advantage...


A Reinforcement System For PRM

A Reinforcement System differs from Respawn system in that the real world logistics and tactics of reinforcement are modeled in a Reinforcement System -- reflecting how players reenter the game...

A summery of points that would scale a more realistic realistic Reinforcement System for PRM are as follows:

· if the Squad Leader dies, the highest scoring member of the squad is field promoted to Squad Leader
· squad members never reinforce/reenter the game alone
· squad members never reinforce in the open or in any visible line-of-sight to or from any other player
· squad members must wait for their in-game squad to rendezvous with them

The detail of how this works and it's differences from Bf2's default respawn system are as follows:

If you are killed you're out of the game until at least one other player is killed and can reinforce with you, this should also be a variable that can be set to a higher number of players required, or as a percentage of the squad, or the option that you many not reinforce until your squad is reduced to just two players... This would allow reinforcement to be tweaked for a particular map, number of players, or play style preference on a particular server.

Any time the Squad Leader is killed, the highest scoring (or ranking) player is promoted to Squad Leader, so there is always a squad spawn marker on the map, and the Squad Leader is always occupied by someone in command as it would be in the real world.

You do not get to choose where you reinforce; you will automatically reinforce, in-force at the nearest clipped area (building or vehicle) on the map to your squads position. This prevents direct LOS spawn camping, 'spawn suprise killing, and offers a much more realistic aesthetic then players appearing out of nowhere.

The rendezvous feature may be omitted, or made optional but offers a lot of value and realism... Once players respawn in a vehicle they will not be able to move or drive until their squad is within the equivalent of say capture proximity (in script) or line-of-sight of the vehicle, if they reinforce in a clipped area, (building, tunnel or bunker) they would not be able to exit until their squad is at an equivelent proximity... This adds another realistic delay to reinforcement, with the realistic tactical detours and issues of joining up with your squad while trying to complete a mission, and would further discourage reckless, suicidal 'Rambo' play...

With this Reinforcement System there is no 'respawn clock', the only things limiting how fast you are able to reappear in the game are: (1) the number of players you must wait for to reinforce with, (2) how long it takes the remaining men in your squad to fight their way to rendezvoused with you at the nearest reinforcement point...

This at least models some realistic aspects of real world reinforcement, makes reinforcing enough work that no one will want to die, and will I think preserve the sustained intensity that make Bf2 so popular.

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That is one of the most original and interesting ideas I think I have ever heard. *jaw drops to floor*

Sounds interesting, but I don't think I entirely understand it.

You do not get to choose where you reinforce; you will automatically reinforce, in-force at the nearest clipped area (building or vehicle) on the map to your squads position. This prevents direct LOS spawn camping, and 'spawn suprise killing and offers a much more realistic aesthetic then players appearing out of nowhere.

I think this is technically impossible to do, which kind of makes this system hard to build...

Anyway, its a nice idea. I do like the idea of waiting so you can spawn multiple peeps. At least its better than some stupid lets-increase-respawn-time system. With 2 or more spawning at once you have a reason to wait.

But otherwise, its a little complicated. Many issues with respawning (such as people popping up 10m from a flag right in your line of sight) can be solved with simple map design. Why do we have to spawn at the *flags*??? If you capture a flag, why couldnt that enable spawning in a building like 200m back? And then when you capture a flag further away, you get a closer spawnpoint at another covered position.

Well Noetheinner, I think some thought I was joking when I said I've worked on commercial games, a lot of mods and total conversions... I do Recording Engineering, and Sound Design -- but I also script and code, have done a lot of game-play analysis working as a paid game beta tester, and I've been around for a long, long time...

BluDragon, that's a good question -- and as we only have one default game mode I supposed there's only one satisfactory answer; the whole Squad will have to re-insert under the aegis of being a new squad sent to replace the one that got itself wiped out. One possibility would be to add a considerable reinforcement wait penalty for everyone letting everyone get killed at the squad level...

Parachutes and the new HALO feature in Special Forces (but do-able without the Special Forces expansion) offers one more means to even more realistic and sophistocated insertion and reinforcement for mission based play modes...

Perhaps in the current game mode high-scoring players (demonstrating their expertise) could be given the option to HALO or parachute in to reinforce their squad... This would be especially valuable on maps that don't have a lot to offer in the way of vehicles or clipped points a player pawn can spawn in. But again, to keep it realistic, the drop point would default on the current Squad Leader and no less then two would be allowed reinforce...

dawdler I see a lot of fun and cool suggestions on these fourms and agree many are just not practical or even possible within the constraints of Bf2's script. I make every effort to offer suggestions that are practical and based on what I see in script, that also offer some seamless improvements along the lines of the design approach the PRM Team appears to be taking, and that will offer the kind of game-play I know serious Tactical Realism Fans prefer....

[R-DEV]Paladin-X, what what exactly are you unsure of understanding? I just tried to edit my topic post for more clarity...

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hoak wrote:dawdler I see a lot of fun and cool suggestions on these fourms and agree many are just not practical or even possible within the constraints of Bf2's script. I make every effort to offer suggestions that are practical and based on what I see in script, that also offer some seamless improvements along the lines of the design approach the PRM Team appears to be taking, and that will offer the kind of game-play I know serious Tactical Realism Fans prefer....

So where did you see how controlling spawn locations is possible (plus advanced collision checking to spawn people inside object)? All I see is a simple function that can be tagged when a player spawn. Everything else (which position, how, when, etc) seems to be done by programmed logic.

From what I read spawn locations can be defined with the Level Editor; 'advanced collisoion checking to spawn people inside an objec' is already a part of the game as you can spawn in vehicles or buildings -- unless you mean spawn player pawns inside of rocks and trees, or spawning real people into the game... Positioning is trickier, but there already appears to be a function to nearest map spawn when you slect to spawn on your Squad Commander.

I'm no Python wiz, but it's very flexible script and even if parts of the suggestion for a Reinforcement System are not possible, others are certainly are... Moreover, everything isn't needed to have something workable that's more realistic then the arcade magic transporter spam/spawn system that's in the game now...

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hoak wrote:From what I read spawn locations can be defined with the Level Editor; 'advanced collisoion checking to spawn people inside an objec' is already a part of the game as you can spawn in vehicles or buildings -- unless you mean spawn player pawns inside of rocks and trees, or spawning real people into the game... Positioning is trickier, but there already appears to be a function to nearest map spawn when you slect to spawn on your Squad Commander.

I'm no Python wiz, but it's very flexible script and even if parts of the suggestion for a Reinforcement System are not possible, others are certainly are... Moreover, everything isn't needed to have something workable that's more realistic then the arcade magic transporter spam/spawn system that's in the game now...

Δ

Well... I hope its possible (no, not to spawn real people into the game ) but I still doubt it.

For example the spawn locations in the editor. They are controlled by a controlpoint, which in turn is a predefined system. I dont think they can float around in the void (ie in a house) with no connection, so you can select an appropriate spawn via the scripts. But then again you could always place invisble objects (like shrubberies) and use them to decide where to spawn... No link to flags whatsoever. Question is still, can we take full control of the spawning process?

Not being an fluent Programmer I can't say, but it seems to me there are always ways around things by means of some sort of hacking, blacksmithing, or working around a problem rather then through it and deciding it won't work because the most elegant solution isn't available.

For example; making more realistic reinforcement/respawn points on an existing Bf2 map might be approached by first removing all points in the open, this would in essence force a player to spawn in one of the vehicles, an enclosed or covered area when he chose to spawn on his Squad Commander as these are the only points on the spawn grid available. Now perhaps we can't remove the option for a player to choose from multiple spawns in code and automate it, but we can remove the pips from the map so the only respawn you can pick is your Squad Leader, in essence making at least part of the reinforcment system work just by manipulating game art and map assets.

The feature I see as problematic is really making it work like a reinforcement system where you are only able to reinforce when two or more of your team are dead, and must do so together... But to someone that knows the ins and outs of Bf2 this may not an issue at all...

I had more intended to suggest an approach then definitive solution that should be followed to the "T"... If one aspect of a reinforcement system can't be made to work in Bf2, perhaps another can... There are plenty of resources and possibilities if you flex your creative twogglers...

In the end even if reinforcement can't be put together in any satisfactory way, maybe a game-mode can be created out of the one-life-squad concept. Where no one respawns till the whole squad is flattened, and then the whole squad inserts together, realistically, in an armored vehicle, as a HALO drop -- fill in the bank with your idea...

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i agree it will be impossible to do even thought it is a good idea and id love it to hapen

Would you like to support your statement with something like evidence? Saying something is "impossible" is not an opinion or a feeling; it's something that is either true of false; i.e. a fact...

In fact many work-arounds are possible, I've illustrated two examples in the event of script limitations, and a decent reinforcement system doesn't have to have every feature in my illustration to offer more realism and game-play improvements over the default respawn/respam system in Bf2.

Anything, as many here have suggested that places more value on each life of your player would be an improvement. There only limits to the possibilities are cynicism, lack of imagination, and unsupported destructive criticism...

Just off the top of my head you could make the Medic Class a one life only class; Medics are typically pretty scarce on the battlefield, this would make preserving the life of you Medic a priority...

If Medic's lives can't be limited, or it's decided not to be desirable, perhaps limiting something else that makes dying and respawning in the game a less appealing means to score-whoring or winning can be...

Any game on unranked servers that becomes popular is going to have a new set of issues to deal with on that basis alone; as there are no consequences for dying, suicide, or even TKing as far as your over-all rank. So the Reality mod could well get a big dose of Reality, that would also be a substantial hit to Realism if some of the spammier aspects of Respawn vs Reinforcement are not looked at...

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I always though players should either spawn way back in a non-combat area and move forward via vehicles or para drop in on captured flags.

I don't know if it's possible but

Have a spawn point in an out of bounds area that doesn't hurt your team but hurts enemy forces that enter it like normal out of bounds areas. so you can get in a backhawk or hummer and move out but if the enemy tries to spawn camp your main spawn they are killed withing 6 seconds like if you leave the feild of battle. maybe have it so when you exit a chopper a parachute opens but you don't get one to use for jumping off buildings and such stupid stuff.

unarmed vheicles like a transport hummer or truck would have fast respawn where armed vheicles would have slower respawn to make them more valuble. though transport backhawks should be a bit longer and armed choppers should take quit some time. would it be possible to implement some kind of fuel system for aircaft to force them to land and resupply every one in awhile?

for maps where it's possible to take all the spawn and stop the enemy respawn how about when you take all the capable spawns then the enemy can't spawn at their main anymore and the tickets drop to "0"

when you capture a spawn point you can para-drop to it instead of just apearing on the ground. It would be more realistic becaue if you try to drop in a hot landing zone you run the risk of taking shots on the way down.

you can also para-drop onto your squad leader or possible just spawn as normal but not if your squad leader is taking fire (kinda like Halo) like maybe if your squad leader is taking fire he isn't a valid spawn point like when he's in a full vehicle but if he gets out of the action you can spawn on him. either way would be good

this would make transport vehicle much more inportant ade hopfuly reduce the urge to grab a blackhawk for yourself and ditch it when your get to where your going.



I think this would help bf 2 allot.

You cant limit the medic to one life.... you might as well limit everyone to one life, and turn this mod into CS:S - Battlefield Edition. I agree that maybe something can be done to limit the medic from turning the tide in the battle, but limiting the medic to one life is a bit drastic. Or if one is going to go that route, allow your mates to pick up dead/wounded bodies and bring them to the medic, since as you put it they are scarce on the battlefield.

I hope PR can do something with the spawn,I'm getting tired of the spawn campers,its a ***** when you wait 30 sec to get back in, and as soon as you do theres someone there to take you out as soon as you spawn.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but good old Delta Force had a spawn system where you couldn't kill someone within a few seconds after he had spawned. Unless he himself started to shoot. This way you got a few seconds at spawn to get a good grip of the situation. Might be hard to implement in BF2 though.