Project Reality Forums

I've been thining of ways to improve the current system and after reading https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... post600327
I've finally decided to share my thoughts.

Firstly, I have to say I absolutely love the new Hellfire system and would like to thank whoever put this together.

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Although I would like the attack helicopter to be fully represented in the mod as the deadly killing machine it is. I understand most people would whine about it being unbalanced. My opinion is - in real life it is also, deal with it. However, once again most people don't think like this so I have tailored my suggestions slightly.

I will be using the Apache Longbow as example.




1. Gunner view.

The AH-64 Apache has 3 optical modes.

# Day TV. Views images during day and low light levels, black and white.

# TADS FLIR. Views thermal images, real world and magnified, during day, night and adverse weather.

# DVO. Views real world, full color, and magnified images during daylight and dusk conditions.

Right now, the "FLIR" seems to be the "Day TV" mode. Since FLIR or any other type of IR imaging is not possible in the BF2 engine I think a good copromise would be to add in "DVO" and "Day TV" or if 2 optic modes are not possible then just "DVO". Right now the view is terrible and impossible to spot anything.



2. Target Aquisition.

Right now, finding a team organized enough or with a commander with enough time to be the link-man between ground troops and all aircraft while at the same time commanding the battle is pretty much never.

I know you wanted to promote teamwork but it really seems as though this is not really possible. The Longbows radome can initiate a radio scan and classify more than 128 targets, find the 16 most deadly, transmit the information to all nearby Longbows and launch a surgical attack in under 30 seconds.

Right now, I am left flying about like a wounded seagull trying to fly low enough to the ground to actually scour the ground for targets. Flying high the "FLIR" on the gunners position is such a hindrance that it prevents him from being able to see a huge tank rolling along because it's just another dark speck on his screen.

However, because of the map size the relative cruising speed of the Apache seems to be slow enough for tanks to take me right out of the sky on sight 80% of the time if I am heading directly away or towards him and when I'm moving perpendicular to him 10% of the time with a well placed shot. If the Apache cruised at 170mph like in real life then I don't think the cocky tanks would have so much of a chance.

Basically, what I suggest is a new way for helicopters to find targets. I have two ideas which could both work.

1. Radar Scan.

This would simulate the attack helicopters ability to use radar to aquire targets.

There are several ways this could be achieved.

The 5th position could be used to initiate a radar scan. Operated much like a weapon. It would have a recharge and unlimited ammo.

When the scan is started the helicopter would act much like a UAV scan in vanilla. This would simulate the targets being shared with any allies in the area. The recharge could be a minute or two for balance.


Another way this could be done is simply create an enemy armour/vehicle symbol on the mini-map showing the position of all enemy vehicles when activated.

This could also be completely passive.

2. On-screen threat designation.

It is possible to create a 5th position for the gunner. (2 being cannon, 3 being laser-guided etc.) This new position, when activated by the gunner would create a symbol over any manned enemy vehicle on the screen. It would also have a small tag above, including range, threat rating etc.

The gunner could then co-ordinate this to the pilot and plan an attack. Conversely this could show up on the pilots screen too.



Once again, this could also be completely passive.


I believe by shuffling these ideas around and choosing between, it is possible to greatly increase the effectiveness and feel of authenticity, of the otherwise bland choppers of the 0.71 release.


Thoughts, comments or responses from Devs..

Just remember if any of the changes in this thread happends they should not only be for the longbow, its the best helicopter right now and it should not have to be even better.

And also I don't know what ppl is doing wrong but me and my pilot never get shot down by tanks when we are moving, I think the problem is that ppl fly in the open and don't take cover behind hills.

I don't mean to de-rail the thread but why do you come to the conclusion of the Apache being the best in-game, at the moment? The AH-1Z handles like a littlebird.

If I were to rank them it would be Cobra->Z-10->Apache->Havoc.

They all have the same weapon systems, manouverability is the only defining factor in-game.





So how do you know about the location of enemy armour in-game?

I've had a few instances where people actually laser targets. And I don't find it *that* hard to see enemy vehicles, although it'd be nice to have some way to more obviously indicate them (thermal).

I don't really like the suggestions, because of the balancing issues for one (current system is nice). But how wide is the uav going to be, assuming it's changeable it would need to be pretty huge to cover any useful distance for the helicopter.

H3eadshot wrote:So how do you know about the location of enemy armour in-game?

I look at my screen, and when I see it i zoom in to make sure its enemy and then I fire. I don't have any problems to see a tank.

(To be honest to only change I want for the a-helo is to make the camera not move with the pilot, damn its hard to explain ;P)

Death_dx wrote:it'd be nice to have some way to more obviously indicate them (thermal).

Hard-coded.

Death_dx wrote:because of the balancing issues for one

This is what they can do in real-life. Keeping an AAV with your tanks would be more important. AAV's can take you out the sky with ease.

Death_dx wrote:But how wide is the uav going to be, assuming it's changeable it would need to be pretty huge to cover any useful distance for the helicopter.

Well I don't have a defenite answer, it would have to be tested obviously.


I get what you mean Spaz, that would be so much better, but I doubt possible. Although, at the same time it would be really annoying trying to realize where the pilot is facing. Kind of like using f9 in vanilla when gunning to get a better view. You had to keep tapping it to realize which way the pilot was facing.

People never seems to spot or laze targets all that often. No matter how many times you ask.

I still don't understand, if you pop up from behind hills to take out tanks and you see them on your screen fine, then how do you know where they are in the first place and how do you know there isn't another one who has totally flanked everyone and is ready to pop you when you come over the hill.

H3eadshot wrote:I still don't understand, if you pop up from behind hills to take out tanks and you see them on your screen fine

We make sure to have comms with ground forces, ppl put in team chat that they are pinned down by a tank in x position. But most of the time we hide close to flags or roads leading to flags and pop up to see if we can find any tank.

then how do you know where they are in the first place and how do you know there isn't another one who has totally flanked everyone and is ready to pop you when you come over the hill.

Make sure no one can see you when you get in postition

Gunner View Threat


Edit: I like your thoughts about the radar system i hope they will add something like that.

I'm hardly an expert on RL-attack helis but I thought the Longbow-radar was sort of unique in it's capabilities. I guess this might have been changed recently with upgraded Cobras etc - but if not I wouldn't want to see radar with properties that the real life aircraft lack.

What I would love to see on the A-helis is a DVO/Full color-view as suggested above and in other threads - but also more than anything else that the gunner does not have to be within visual range of a laser designated target in order to fire upon it. I'm always piloting so I can't say this with 100% certainty, but it sure has seemed to me that I have to move within visual range of a target in order for the gunner to receive the Lock-on-message/confirmation.

hachichin wrote:I'm hardly an expert on RL-attack helis but I thought the Longbow-radar was sort of unique in it's capabilities.

China bought a apache and copied everything and made the WZ-10 out of that lol. At least that what they said on some website

H3eadshot wrote: Hard-coded.


This is what they can do in real-life. Keeping an AAV with your tanks would be more important. AAV's can take you out the sky with ease.

Well I don't have a defenite answer, it would have to be tested obviously.

I know it's impossible to code, I just meant it'd be nice to have an indicator, something like how the lockon in the bf2 two manned jets worked. It gave you a triangle/square on the target. Even if they kept an AAV with them you'd just have the chopper scanning everywhere, and if they spotted an anti air, they'd pop out (with flares) shoot it first, hide and then go back and kill the tanks.

That's exactly what one of my suggestions was. Target indicators with range etc over vehicles on the map.

Death_dx wrote:I know it's impossible to code, I just meant it'd be nice to have an indicator, something like how the lockon in the bf2 two manned jets worked. It gave you a triangle/square on the target. Even if they kept an AAV with them you'd just have the chopper scanning everywhere, and if they spotted an anti air, they'd pop out (with flares) shoot it first, hide and then go back and kill the tanks.

I like this.

The worry is that if the chopper automatically puts a target box on all enemy vehicles then it will overpower the chopper and make laser targets obsolete. I think an effective compromise would be to have passive target indicators appear, perhaps a triangle for passive targets and a square for laser designated targets. Also, passive indicators should only appear within a limited range from the target, let's say 750 meters for now, but that could easily go up or down based on testing.

In this way the crew can at least pop up over a ridge, see that there is an enemy tank in the valley ahead and then either a) attempt a guided missile attack, in which the gunner would have to keep his reticle on the passive target to hit, or place an active laser target and then fire his missile, which will still take time to do.

CAS, you may have misunderstood. Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "automatic target Lasing." Secondly, the passive targeting I am talking about is only half of what AA targeting is. You will see a box on top of the enemy vehicle, but that box does not mean you can simply pull the trigger and fire a missile at the box. The box simply gives you a visual representation of the target.

To actually hit the target the Gunship operator must do one of 3 things.
1. He can fire the missile and try to manually guide it onto the target, just as in 0.7 now using the laser guided firing mode
2. He can select laser targeted firing mode, place a laser designator over top of the existing target, and then fire.
3. He can contact a forward observer, who will place a laser designator, which will appear, again, over top of the original target indicator, which the operator can then lock onto and fire.

To recap. I am talking about having enemy vehicles show up on the Gunship HUD as boxes. Note that these boxes cannot be locked on to, they exist only so that the pilot and gunner can have a visual representation of the target on the HUD. To actually lock on and fire a laser targeted missile, an additional laser target must be acquired, either manually by the operator, or by a forward observer using a SOFLAM. The only change being made between the current 0.7 arrangement, and my suggestion, is that there will be an additional passive targeting box over all visible vehicles within a set range, regardless of whether that vehicle has been actively "locked" with a laser designator.

This is supposed to simulate the gunship's air to ground radar capabily.

Alternative: What about a minimap based UAV system which relays ground vehicle positions within the helicopter and perhaps between scout choppers and longbow helicopters? You already see friendly vehicles with the minimap, why not enemy ones? You would get an idea of the direction and range of the target, with this system, but there wouldn't be a huge box giving away their precise location.

DarthDisco's idea could work so does nedlands1. But the laser-target mode needs some tweaks, the laser you "fire" is way to slow and makes the attack only useless because you can also just fire a guided missile witch is as fast as firing the laser.. there shouldn't be any travel time for the laser, just point klik and it should be there where you point and then fire the guided missile. Its already hard enough to actually hit the target while moving abit.. for the radar i think its a good idea to have something like DarthDisco's idea but nedlands1's idea is good too, i dont really care witch it will be (if there will be any)