Project Reality Forums

(If you choose to reply, please read this post in its entirety. Too often I've seen people make suggestions and point out some arguments that people may have - and how they would address those arguments - but people ignore this and still post the refuted argument as a reply anyway)

I'll start with a little info about myself. I've been playing BF2 since the demo and have been following PR since one of the first posts in the Desert Combat forums asking for volunteers. I think I even remember the photo that was in the forum signature for the person who posted:



I'm also a supporter of every upgrade for Project Reality in the releases. No, I'm not a fanboy, I just see the logic in everything from removing 1 man tankers to removing squad leader spawning to standardizing kits and forcing kit requests. It has made the game more enjoyable for me and has really created the best gaming experience I have ever had (no joke!)

I was also on the R-PUB team for a while but had to bail due to some demanding things in my personal life.

I mention the above so everyone doesn't thing I'm some new guy off the street trying to change PR. I've been playing the mod for so long that I believe I can (more or less) understand in which direction the developers are trying to go.

Ok, finally to the suggestion. I know I'm going to get some serious resistance to this so I'll try to explain my logic as much as possible.

Remove all *live* markers from the map

What are live markers?
- Friendly troops
- Friendly vehicles
- Flag Status (ie: neutralized or capped flag)

Landing zones, enemy spotted signals and other markers that are placed by teammates or the commander would stay.

ONLY the Commander will see live markers.

The squad leader should be able to ONLY see his squad members.

Below I've compiled a list for my reasoning as to why this should be.

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
How often have had to walk a considerable distance with your squad and simply brought up the minimap, saw which way your little circle was pointing, and just hit the forward key ignoring everything around you?

By removing the live markers on the minimap, you're forcing people to rely on true situational awareness and most of all - their compass!

This will also LIMIT situational awareness as necessary. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! How many times were you in a squad and 3 of the members kept commenting on what the rest of the team is doing?

"Damn, squad 5 lost the village.. they suck!"
"Well it looks like Squad 1 is attacking, so let's just flank the other way"

A grenadier of Squad 3 should not have the same situational awareness as the commander. He shouldn't know the state of the battle, only the state of his mission.

This will also give advantages to the situational awareness of commanders and squad leaders. People must now rely on these two individuals to guide them into the battle instead of simply following them because they "have to".

THIS WILL NOT ENCOURAGE TEAM KILLING
You can't rely on your map to check for friendlies. Sometimes an enemy can be right next to a friendly and you'd never know, resulting in a team kill. The best you can do is either zoom in far enough to tell (and yes, you can tell) or what most people do hold your mouse over the solder and his name will pop up.

The fact that it takes time to bring the map up has really eliminated the use of the map for distinguishing friend from foe quickly. It takes time to bring up the map, locate where you are and locate who that is you're looking at.

Granted, there may be some initial team killing but it's definitely not going to be as wide spread as some would claim. Remember when the map delay was added? Many people complained of team killing at first, then everyone got used to it.

COMMUNICATION
Now it will make sense when a squad member says:

"We have a friendly APC inbound from the North"

Usually saying this is redundant because everyone can check their map and realize it's a friendly APC coming (especially the squad leader who checks his map frequently).

Now the commander can notify the squad leader with something like:

"Squad 5 you have Squad 4 coming in from the South, watch your fire"

THE BEST PART
The best part about this feature is that squad leaders will now need to use terrain as landmarks more than ever. It's going to be easy to get lost if you can't see yourself on the map. You'll need to use various landmarks like big rocks, roads and other things to figure it out.

It's a whole new set of logic that people need to use - PATHFINDING!

It makes the maps seem much larger, the attention to detail is greater.

In real life, troops movements in "hot zones" or "red zones" (areas under enemy control) are way slower than in PR. Troops need to move very carefully because they don't know the up-to-the-second status of the battle (unless they are commanding) so they don't know who they're going to run into.

The battles would also naturally expand as they do in real life.

If you're in the desert, quick movement is a lot easier as it is in real life. There's really nowhere to hide in the desert (ie: Kashan)

In the woods or forests, movement has to be much slower because there are so many places to hide.

And best of all, ambushes will finally be something to fear. You won't be able to identify exactly where you got shot from unless you check the map every 5 seconds -- which you can't do.

WE WANT REALISM
It's impossible to a create a completely realistic video game, of course.

However, it is possible to recreate the strategic mind set that you need while you're out in the field. One of the key elements of that mindset is uncertainty.

BEFORE YOU DISAGREE
Think about why you really use the map. I'm sure you'll break it down into 3 simple reasons:

1) To see where you are.
2) To see where your teammates are.
3) To see where you want to go.

All 3 of those things can be achieved without the map showing live markers by:

1) Analyzing the terrain around you and that on the map.
2) Communication.
3) Communication.

These are all things that seem to be very encouraged in PR.

PROBLEMS WITH THE IDEA
As all ideas, this one isn't perfect. I do think the benefits outweigh the problems (if it can be implemented)

1) Engine limitations
2) If team A has no commander, team B will destroy them with a commander.
3) Servers with no VOIP will have a lot of trouble communicating.

Similar suggestions were done in the past, but none in this detail. I like the idea of bringing information found on the map down some. Still I think it shouldn't be done to the extreme. I still think squad members should be able to see other squad members, the SL should be able to see his squad members and possibly other SLs, while the CO simply sees all.

I think another good thing about it is that SMs and SLs are much more likely to follow orders, as the map can currently make anyone very self-sufficient. It could help reduce the amount of loners out there, as SMs and even squads might be a bit uncertain as to what's going on.

Right now the map eliminates a real problem experienced in war, that being the Fog of War.

I agree to the general sweep of the suggestion - something similar was suggested recently (by Masaq maybe?) that there be a time lag on GPS information so that all the info on the map would be 'live + 'x' seconds'.
Especially important imo is that no regular infantry man would have so much information available to them - if they were killed/captured by the enemy, then in reality your team would be obliterated by that info. And anything that keeps the infantry vehicle-reliant for ammo, GPS info and sheer firepower is good

Huuuum...

I was wondering what would be the next step to more realism ... Last was the removing of minimap and SL spawn, and i think we've found the next one

I'm not going to critic your suggestion now; I believe I (we ? I would highly recommend to everybody to do the same…) need to think about it a bit more... I've already seen a few issues and maybe some solutions, but as I said I need more time before posting it, and will not answer you before tomorrow...

But be sure you've opened the way Project Reality should go to...

i like this idea, but i dont think it would work out in pubbing. Maybe in the tourny...

I like it. I think it's a brilliant idea and would really push realism. It'll slow down gameplay alot but I think that will add to the feel of the game. Ah beautiful...

'Artnez[US wrote:;621466']I mention the above so everyone doesn't thing I'm some new guy off the street trying to change PR.

Well you still look like one since you apparently didn't catch that you're not supposed to resuggest things. Anyways these changes would be cool but if I remember correctly they were against changing this stuff because it would be too much for a lot of people or something. >.> Maybe they are thinking about it though.

Re suggestion or not....it is a very dynamic idea and I support it 95%

But that remaining 5% is screaming so loud though!

This is great if you have a competent commander.

It would suck for game-play if the commander was a "d-bag" or if there was no commander at all.

I am for removing player tags and markers all together as well.
But there needs to be a way to identify your own squad from the rest of the team.
Im speaking of in-game player view....not the mini-map.

yea i understand only being able to see your sq or team mates in a forest on your mini map up to say 30 meters but what about bunkers firebases and in desert maps

1) Engine limitations



but anyone is free to give it a go!

I personally believe this would put too much pressure on the commander. I've played PR since 0.5 and from 0.5 to now, people don't seemed to like assuming the commander role unless prodded or forced. This means though some people will have a blast commanding the 32 man team, most if not numerous people will not, and as the OP stated, the team without the commander will most likely lose. If neither team have a commander, then the scene would be just pathetically chaotic.

But I believe a compromise between the suggestion and the system in place now would be beneficial.

This would work good in theory but most pub games do not have such high levels of organization.

The only way I can see this work well, is to have an XO, two commanders if you will. They can work together figuring out the main strategy as well as assisting squads in their pathfinding. This is probably not possible, and still might fail in a pub setting.

'Nuff said Fuzzhead, you can close this thread.

The more I thought about the engine aspect, the more I realized how hard this would be. When you set a new move/attack/defend marker, there is a line drawn from where you are to where you need to be (on the map). Don't know how they'd work around that.

Everyone's criticism of this idea is definitely valid though. It's true, pub servers don't have that much organization.

I still think it wouldn't hurt to remove as much info as possible.

At the risk of being totally simplistic... one of the reasons I loved Desert Combat so much was the lack of information. Surprise attacks were so much fun.

sound pretty cool would really force the teamwork.

however i think that in advanced vehicles (tanks, helos, apcs, jets) you should be able to see yourself and in aircraft friendly jets/helos too. This would reflect radar (in aircraft) and GPS.

though i beblive this is unlikely to happen with this "fossalized tur of an engine"

i like the idea but there is one thing: my clan i am one of the youngest was starting with DeltaForce BHD. and a lot of the are old or over 30 v. 40. and the father of our leader is also playing PR for a while its not the age i know lot of my mates which stopped playing pr cause the first time they play i was explaining how to do everything and how it works etc. but they have their problems with it i am not bad about i like it like it is but i am also for reality. now to the point i am talking around: it make the game play complicated for new PR players. so i dont no a solution may a singleplayer campaign or something else i dont know but this is a question which should get an answer cause i hope pr getting more n more players and more more servers (by the way great idea again

2) Would seriously suck in an unorganized pub server, especially given the fact that commander is the most hated position to hold.


Anyhow, serious re=suggestion, and while I do think it would be cool, it just would never work in pub play. As someone said though, adding this to the tourney would be really cool.

I agree one 100 %...

And since we all know we have to adapt, then we should have a graduall change from the version currently playing, to the version suggested in this thread.

I cant wait reading

" squad 4 in Delta 5, there is noone here sir."

"Cease fire friendly squad at delta 6"

in the team chat

This is how i would love fighting, having my squad behind me, waiting for Commanders orders. And hearing weather or not friendlys are around.


Little side kick, it would be nice if also the SQ had the same overwiev as the commander in some ways, so that SM would be very very reliant on SQ.

Just a small re-Suggestion.