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I think the class system for PRMM should be re-done.

Now, we've got 8 classes, right? Each of them has an unlock, right? So, basically, there are 16 available kits.

I've got a nice long list of my recomendations for those kits:

NOTE: ALL classes have: knife, 1 individual bandage

*REVISION 9*


RIFLEMAN CLASS
============
Rifleman
--------
- Assualt Rifle - 8 + 1 mags
- 4 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades

Marksman
---------
- Assualt Rifle w/ optics - 8 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades


SPECIALIST CLASS
==============
Grenadier
---------
- Assualt Rifle w/ grenade launcher - 6 + 1 mags and 5 + 1 grenades
- 2 flashbangs

Light AT
--------
- Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades
- 1 Light Anti-Armour Weapon


AUTOMATIC RIFLEMAN CLASS
======================
LMG Gunner
-----------
- LMG - 2 + 1 box mags

LMG Spotter
------------
- Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 box mags for LMG Gunner
- Binoculars


COMBAT SUPPORT CLASS
===================
Combat Medic
-------------
- Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 smoke grenades
- defibulator - 2 + 1 batteries
- 15 bandages

Combat Engineer
----------------
- Carbine - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 4 C4 packs
- 2 AT mines
- 2 AP mines


FIRE SUPPORT CLASS
================
Mortar
------
- PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable mortar - 9 + 1 rounds
- 1 deployable mortar rearm

HMG
----
- PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable HMG - 200 round belt
- 2 deployable HMG rearms


ANTI-VEHICLE CLASS
================
AT
--
- PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AT system - 2 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars

AA
--
- PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AA system - 1 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars


PILOT CLASS
==========
Air Crew
--------
- Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 RED smoke grenade
- Binoculars

Armour Crew
------------
- Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 GREEN smoke grenade
- Binoculars


RECON CLASS
==========
Scout
-----
- Carbine w/ optics - 4 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- laser designator

Sniper
------
- Sniper Rifle - 3 + 1 mags
- Binoculars


Now, obviously some of this needs explaining.


Acronyms
---------
LMG = Light Machine Gun
HMG = Heavy Machine Gun
PDW = Personal Defense Weapon
AT = Anti-Tank
AA = Anti-Air
AP = Anti-Personnel
SL = Squad Leader
LGB = Laser Guided Bomb
MLRS = Mobile Rocket Launch System


Some extra Notes:
-----------------

-Air Crew pilot jets and helos
-Ground Crew pilot MBTs, APCs, other armoured vehicles
-Anyone can pilot Transports, HMGs, Mortars
-All kits can be passengers in vehicles (APCs, Helis, etc.)
-Batteries for Defibulators have 5 uses per charge
-Individual bandages are only used on the player, no one else
-Combat Medics CANNOT heal themselves with the medic bandages
-Vehicles are resupplied and repaired at special "stations" only (garages, hangars, etc.)
-ALL classes have finite resources, they MUST be resupplied to continue to fight effectively
-Mortar and HMG re-arms work like the wrench, click and hold, 10 seconds to re-arm the HMG, 20 seconds to re-arm the Mortar
-Mortars use the ARTILLERY SYSTEM (interim until we get some REAL artillery )


MEDIC SYSTEM:
Defibulators revive the player to 25% health, under 50% health lethal bleeding begins. The individual bandage heals to 50%, the medic to 75%. Bandage healing is NOT stackable. To get the player's health to 100%, the player must heal at a medical vehicle/building.

ARTILLERY SYSTEM:
Similar to BF1942's system, artillery's scope has elevation and rotation "meters". When a request is made, coloured (different for each request) lines are displayed on the "meters" to show where the target area is. When the colured lines are put into the middle of each "meter", firing will result in a round on the target area.

LASER DESIGNATOR SYSTEM:
Click to turn it on, wherever it "hits" in the game world (limit to 500m, to prevent problems) will create a "lockable target", like the heat sources (jets, helis, oil flame), except this "lockable target" is used to LGBs and other laser guided munitions. Replace the "dumbfire" bombs on jets with LGBs, they can still be dropped "blind", but with a laser designator, they will be VERY accurate. This can also be used for missles and rockets fired from MLRS' (and equivalent opposing army systems), and (at least for the US forces) laser guided artillery rounds (the regular "cannon" rounds that is).

RESUPPLY SYSTEM:
Infantry squads are resupplied in a few different ways. They can be resupplied by air-dropped Supply Crates, a Supply Vehicle, or by their Squad Vehicle. The Supply Crate resupplies by standing next to it, the Squad Vehicle resupplies ONLY by sitting in the vehicle, and the Supply Vehicle resupplies by standing next to it. The Squad Vehicle is a vehicle that can fit a whole squad, and is meant to be used with the squad, ie: LAV, HMWV, Vodnik, etc. The Supply Vehicle is a large truck (ie: 5 ton truck for US) that only carries supplies, a driver, and one passenger, if it is destroyed, it makes a BIG boom since it has ammunition for all types of infantry weapons.


Now since I have seen a couple of times the Devs say that Class Restricing is NOT POSSIBLE, I decided to come up with this as an option for a more balanced team. The key is to make a squad need a variety of classes to be the most effective.

For example, say a squad of 6 says "Screw you beta, we're going to have 6 LMG Gunners!", now, they will have an impressive amount of firepower, but no grenades (smoke or frag) and won't be able to heal eachother.

Now this system is far from perfect, it needs some rigorous testing (playtesting and otherwise) to find its flaws, but I think diversifying the classes is the way to go to get a good, balanced system.


Well, that's my idea. Comment.

Very good suggestions. I really don't have too much to add, at least at the moment. Just wanted to complement you on your ideas.

we can have more then 2 unlocks per slot i think but i am not sure

DEV's??

What kind of HMG are you talking about are you talking like M2 Browning (.50cal) (and the DShKm and the Chinese Counterpart)? Or just like the M240G, PKM, etc? Because if its the .50cal MGs than I can see having a PDW, a pistol seems right though, but if its a M240G or something along those lines they shouldn't get a PDW.

But other than that, I like the suggestion.

i agree and disagree

i would like it like this..
assume prmm just keeps 1 unlock per class insted of the 2 avalible

Classes

Recon(1) - No armor - Light carbine/assult rifle
4 Mags
Binocular
Pistol + 2 mags
2 + Sniper rifle Mags
knife
stimpack

Recon(2) - No armor - Assult rifle + acog or 4xscope
4 Mags
Laser pointer
2 + Sniper rifle Mags
Pistol + 2 mags
knife
stimpack

Marksman(1) - No armor - Sniper rifle
4 Mags
2 grenades
Knife
Stimpack

Marksman(2) - No armor - Sniper rifle
4 Mags
Guile suit (sorry spelling)
Pistol + 2 mags
Knife
Stimpack


Assult(1) - Light armor - Assult rifle
4 Mags
2 Smoke grenades
2 Grenades
Tactical radio
Knife
stimpack

Assult(2) - Light armor - Assult rifle+GL
4 Mags
2 Smoke grenades
4 GL grenades
2 Heavy/light ammo boxes
knife
Stimpack

Medic(1) - Light armor - Carbine/Assult rifle
4 Mags
2 Smoke grenades
Medic bag
Defribulator
3 Batterys
Knife

Medic(2) - Light armor - Assult rifle
4 Mags
Medic bag
Defribulator
5 Batterys
Knife

Support(1) - Light armor - Light MG
1 ammo box
2 Grenades
knife
Stimpack

Support(2) - Light armor - Heavy MG
1 ammo box
2 Grenades
knife
Stimpack

Engineer(1) - No armor - Carbine
4 Mags
2 Tank mines
2 Anti personal mines
knife
stimpack

Engineer(2) - No armor - Carbine
4 Mags
4 c4
wrench
knife
stimpack

Anti tank/Anti air(1) - No armor - Sub machinegun/Carbine
4 Mags
Portable AT
3 shoots (ammo for AT)
knife
Stimpack

Anti tank/Anti air(2) - No armor - Sub machinegun/Carbine
4 Mags
Portable AA
3 shoots (ammo for AT)
knife
Stimpack

(1) = Orignial loadout
(2) = Unlock 1

Why these classes/changes


First off i have replaced the spec-op class with the recon class witch is a companion to the sniper/marksman with extra sniper ammo + binoculars to spot enemys and get range. The second recon loadout has the laser guided pointer to paint targets for planes/Hellis.

Assult class have ammo for the Support class or tacitcal radio loadout for calling in Airstrikes or supplies.

Medic works as they do to day exepct for medic loadout 2 have more batterys to the difib and loadout 1 have smoke grenades.

the other changes are pretty obvius i guess

These classes sound well thought out.

I would love to hear the Devs opinion on betas class suggetions.

What kind of HMG are you talking about are you talking like M2 Browning (.50cal) (and the DShKm and the Chinese Counterpart)? Or just like the M240G, PKM, etc? Because if its the .50cal MGs than I can see having a PDW, a pistol seems right though, but if its a M240G or something along those lines they shouldn't get a PDW.

But other than that, I like the suggestion.

This is why I just put HMG ... it can be interchanged with whatever each side/army needs, but I was thinking more of when the HMG is deployed, it is on a tripod, and cannot be moved. So the M2 and it's equivalent counterparts would probably be preferable because they are more likely to be mounted on a tripod. Also, it being a HMG, from a gameplay perspective, it should be a VERY good anti-infantry emplacement.

Why these classes/changes

Well, the main reason is, as it is right now, not all the classes seem realistic, AND not all the classes are used regularily. Why can't we have our "Assualt" with hand grenades and smoke? How about with a LAW? And the grenade launcher?

Another reason is to implement more new stuff, like the portable mortars and HMGs.


I forgot to add in what each class gets armour wise. Could be detrimental to gameplay, but I was thinking each class should have similar armour, since most of these classes are frontline combat roles, they should all recieve the same kit. Exceptions would be the PILOT class. It is up for debate, really.

About the "stimpacks", from what I read about them in the other thread (assuming this is what you're talking about) it is a good idea, just seems to sound funny, can't get the idea of the Marines from Starcraft out of my head ...

I was thinking something similar, like individual bandages to stop the bleeding. Each kit (all 16) would get 2 (don't really need anymore ...) to stop their own wounds, but it WILL NOT heal any of your health.

For more balancing reasons I'd also like to see the medics abilities put in check. For one, reviving should put the victim to 25% health. At 40% health, the lethal bleeding starts, the Combat Medic's "heath bag" can ONLY heal you up to 50% health, after that (to get fully healed) you MUST go to a medical vehicle/building to get up to 100%. I think this would be more realistic, as there is NOTHING in the world that will bring a person who has been shot back to "full life" within seconds.


It's great to see the discussion though, the more posts, the better.

Ok, betas thoughts were relaly impressive to say the least, aswell as BIM's. For the Assault class, I would like to have a CQB (Close quaters battle) loadout with a grenadier, so the greandier could be your long range assault, and CQB could be for building to building combat (where you fight for every inch of the battlefield.) CQB could be a carbine weapon, or an underslung shotgun attachment.

A recon class I feel would be a good addition, but instead of a sniper rifle, I would much rather give them something like a M14, and maybe some semtex, rather than C4 (Less powerful larger exothermic reaction now with a pungent smell). Either that, or they are given Time detonated c4.

The idea of a combat support group is much better IMO. A combat medic and combat engineer are great ideas.

As are the fire support classes. I like the idea of a mortar group and a heavy deployable machine gun. Would be great for creating a firebase or defensive position on a street corner.

Te anti vehicle idea also sounds great.
having AA mixed in with anti-armor is a necessity. Helicopters dominate BF2. however, what I believe is instead of making them tracking, or heat seeking, that they should be fired dumb, much like DC, so they require skill to fire, and will not render helicopters as useless.

'[R-DEV wrote:Evilhomer']Ok, betas thoughts were relaly impressive to say the least, aswell as BIM's. For the Assault class, I would like to have a CQB (Close quaters battle) loadout with a grenadier, so the greandier could be your long range assault, and CQB could be for building to building combat (where you fight for every inch of the battlefield.) CQB could be a carbine weapon, or an underslung shotgun attachment.

Haha how wicked would that be to go tearing through an alley/building/whatever CQB enviroment with an M4a1 with the Masterkey 12guage underneath. The only question is that are there going to be maps designed so that we HAVE to fight for almost every building to take the city/block/area? Because if not, theres far more distance combat than close quarters.

'[R-DEV wrote:Evilhomer']As are the fire support classes. I like the idea of a mortar group and a heavy deployable machine gun. Would be great for creating a firebase or defensive position on a street corner.

Yup it would defiantly be nice to have these to set up on those flags that just don't have good defensive areas, or that just need an little extra "umpff" behind them.

'[R-DEV wrote:Evilhomer']The anti vehicle idea also sounds great. having AA mixed in with anti-armor is a necessity. Helicopters dominate BF2. however, what I believe is instead of making them tracking, or heat seeking, that they should be fired dumb, much like DC, so they require skill to fire, and will not render helicopters as useless.

I agree with not having them heat seeking, but disagree about not being able to track them, maybe limit it some, so that you can guide it somewhat, but can't make all these uber turns and what not with it. Perhaps making it so that once it gets a certain distance, you can't guide it anymore?

Anyone play Joint Ops Escalation? Yes it was awful and the tanks ruined it. The one shot, one kill Javelin thing though combated it. Locked on and then did the arch fireing thing where it would drop back down on top of the tank.

Anyway. The tanks needed 3 people to be operated effectively. A Driver, Gunner and commander (who also controlled the mounted MG). Would be an interesting thing to test.

quite certain that only armour crew can use the tanks and pilot the APC, anyone can be passengers, but only crew can be pilot perhaps? Else i don't see why the need for armour crew, but i sincerely hope that only armour crew can use the tanks and pilot APC makes a heck a lot more sense. But please, not 3 ppl per tank (yeah sure this should be the smallest number of crew for tank IRL, but in a BF2 game where there's only 32 players on one side... that's not good) 2 ppl max if possible, have the tank functional at reduced efficiency with 1 person or something and full combat capability at 2 crew.

i am a bit iffy about the automatic rifleman assistant though, it makes more sense for that to go along with fire support and the HMG than the LMG. I mean as far as i know, the automatic rifleman is quite capable of handling his LMG alone. Much more usefull for the assistant to go along with the HMG like M2 or DShKm, especially since their ammo is a heck a lot heavier too.

And something i've been wishing for a while, is it possible to include anti material rifle as an armament for one of the class? Make it's ammo count low, difficult to deploy, not accurate enough for anti infantry use, whatever... but it would be mighty sweet if we can get some real big toys that can do decent damage against vehicles. (yeah, i've been itching for ages to get a chance to shoot some choppers with 20 mm slug)

Now that I think of it though, why would anyone be an Armor Crewmember? Theres nothing good to it for the most part. Unless you make it so you cannot get in armor unless you have that class I don't know how it would go well if theres no real plus side to it. Whats your idea on that?

Yeah, I meant it so that the Amour Pilot can only pilot MBTs, APCs, anything thats ... armoured . Transports are still pilotable by everyone though. Air Pilots take control of jets and helicopters.

i am a bit iffy about the automatic rifleman assistant though, it makes more sense for that to go along with fire support and the HMG than the LMG. I mean as far as i know, the automatic rifleman is quite capable of handling his LMG alone. Much more usefull for the assistant to go along with the HMG like M2 or DShKm, especially since their ammo is a heck a lot heavier too.

Well, the reasoning for the LMG assistant as opposed to the HMG assistant is this: IRL LMGs are great, problem is not everyone gets one, in PRMM everyone can get one, so we need to "cripple" it, my way was to have them be reliant on another class, so that is if your squad wants an LMG, they're going to need 2 people to effectively use it. This is DEFINATELY a gameplay vs. reality sacrifce, becuase LMGs IRL don't really need the assistant, but going without one in PRMM will cause the problem we have right now.


Well, I have looked over my plans and am going to make a few changes. Mainly swapping the OFFICER class for a RECON class (good idea [BiM]Black7, hope you don't mind if I "borrow" it ) and some other small changes.

I'll re-edit my post when I get back home, probably in 3-4 hours.

Keep it comin', good discussion!

Edit - I've got time right now, might as well do it now ...

A recon class I feel would be a good addition, but instead of a sniper rifle, I would much rather give them something like a M14, and maybe some semtex, rather than C4 (Less powerful larger exothermic reaction now with a pungent smell). Either that, or they are given Time detonated c4.

I agree, I added this in. The Sniper variant of the RECON class is just a filler .... don't really know what to put there, and since lots of people have been posting about all this fancy stuff for how to get snipers back in, I figured if some of it works out, might as well have em' .

beta wrote:I think the class system for PRMM should be re-done.

Now, we've got 8 classes, right? Each of them has an unlock, right? So, basically, there are 16 available kits.

I've got a nice long list of my recomendations for those kits:

NOTE: ALL classes have: -knife
-2 individual bandages
REVISION 1

RIFLEMAN CLASS
----------------
Rifleman - Assualt Rifle - 8 + 1 mags
- 4 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades
- 2 ammo bags

Sharpshooter - Assualt Rifle - 8 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 1 ammo bag


SPECIALIST CLASS
------------------
Grenadier - Assualt Rifle w/ grenade launcher - 6 + 1 mags
- 5 + 1 grenades
- 2 smoke grenades

Light AT - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades
- 1 Light Anti-Armour Weapon



AUTOMATIC RIFLEMAN CLASS
----------------------------
LMG Gunner - LMG - 2 + 1 box mags

LMG Spotter - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 box mag ammo packs
- Binoculars


COMBAT SUPPORT CLASS
------------------------
Combat Medic - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 smoke grenades
- defibulator - 2 + 1 batteries
- 15 bandages

Combat Engineer - Carbine - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 4 C4 packs
- 2 AT mines
- 2 AP mines


FIRE SUPPORT CLASS
--------------------
Mortar - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable mortar - 9 + 1 rounds
- 1 deployable mortar rearm

HMG - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable HMG - 200 round belt
- 2 deployable HMG rearms


ANTI-VEHICLE CLASS
--------------------
AT - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AT system - 2 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars

AA - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AA system - 1 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars


PILOT CLASS
------------
Air Crew - Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 RED smoke grenade
- Binoculars

Armour Crew - Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 GREEN smoke grenade
- Binoculars


RECON CLASS
-------------
Scout - Carbine w/ scope - 4 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- laser designator

Sniper - sniper rifle - 3 + 1 mags
- Binoculars





Now, obviously some of this needs explaining.


Acronyms
---------
LMG = Light Machine Gun
HMG = Heavy Machine Gun
PDW = Personal Defense Weapon
AT = Anti-Tank
AA = Anti-Air
AP = Anti-Personnel
SL = Squad Leader

-Air Crew pilot jets and helos
-Ground Crew pilot MBTs, APCs, other armoured vehicles
-Anyone can pilot Transports, HMGs, Mortars
-Batteries on Defibulators have 5 uses per charge
-Individual bandages are used on the player, no one else
-Combat Medics CANNOT heal themselves with the medic bandages
-Supply Trucks and Supply Crates re-arm everything
-Rifleman ammo bags DO NOT re-arm LMGs, only re-arms mags, hand grenades, and smoke grenades
-ONLY box mag ammo bags and Supply Crates/Trucks re-arm LMGs
-No wrench, only repairs are done at repair stations
-ALL classes have finite resources, they MUST be resupplied to continue to fight effectively
-Mortars use the Artillery system (interim until we get some REAL artillery )

Removed the OFFICER class because of lack of class restriction, this could lead to 15 Platoon Leaders

Laser designators (hopefully ) paint targets for perscision airstrikes, etc.


MEDIC SYSTEM:
Defibulators revive the player to 25% health, under 50% health lethal bleeding begins. The individual bandage heals to 50%, the medic to 75%. Bandage healing is NOT stackable. To get the player's health to 100%, the player must heal at a medical vehicle/building.

ARTILLERY SYSTEM:
Similar to BF1942's system, artillery's scope has elevation and rotation "meters". When a request is made, coloured (different for each request) lines are displayed on the "meters" to show where the target area is. When the colured lines are put into the middle of each "meter", firing will result in a round on the target area.


Now since I have seen a couple of times the Devs say that Class Restricing is NOT POSSIBLE, I decided to come up with this as an option for a more balanced team. The key is to make a squad need a variety of classes to be the most effective.

For example, say a squad of 6 says "Screw you beta, we're going to have 6 LMG Gunners!", now, they will have an impressive amount of firepower, but no grenades (smoke or frag) and won't be able to heal eachother.

Now this system is far from perfect, it needs some rigorous testing (playtesting and otherwise) to find its flaws, but I think diversifying the classes is the way to go to get a good, balanced system.


Well, that's my idea. Comment.

An amzing idea, and presented even better. Some good constructive criticism all around! Good to see! Good job beta and everyone who has been helping in this thread! We will not turn a blind eye towards this!

beta wrote:Supply Crates re-arm everything

Vehicles too? My vote is no.

Anyways, great ideas, if half of what is posted here can be implemented, this mod will dominate the competition

Vehicles too? My vote is no.

Ah, I should change that, I meant all the Kits, not everything on the map ...

I like the original class system. It would be way better if you had a specific class for vehicles and stuff.