Project Reality Forums

I'm all for lengthy capture times, its anoying to have fought hard for a flag just too loose it quiclky because your team moved on and 2 guys waited for everyone to leave ( not considering the fact that the whole team moving on whithout leaving a defense squad is very schmucky )

The times you give seem ok, but not knowing how the number of other players affect the time its hard to ponder. A little insight of how the number of people capping a flag works would help having an idea on the time needed and thus on usefull feedback.

Saobh wrote:The times you give seem ok, but not knowing how the number of other players affect the time its hard to ponder. A little insight of how the number of people capping a flag works would help having an idea on the time needed and thus on usefull feedback.

I don't really know what the specific formula is... wish I did. I do know that uh.... more = faster hehe. I'll see if I can find some info.

One thing in BF2 Editor that is not recognized by the engine is setting a minimum number of players to capture a CP. You can specify this, but it's not enforced. By that I mean you could require 4 players to capture a CP, kinda like Day of Defeat did. I'd like to see that working, perhaps in a future patch.

egg

I do agree that spawn times need to be longer than the normal BF2 capture times, but will remind mappers that capture times need to be balanced with the difficulty, importance and proximity to the point's spawns. Guidelines are good but must be kept seperate from rules.

NikovK wrote:Guidelines are good but must be kept seperate from rules.

Hence the use of the term "guidelines" in the subject. I get it. However we do need to start to establish some idea of what things set PR maps apart from other mods and/or Vanilla maps. We also need to soo how the player base reacts to it .. conceptually here on the forums and in game after playing the maps.

Regarding the formula, it looks like this:
takeOverChangePerSecond = 1.0 * attackOverWeight / timeToChangeControl

Where:
takeOverChangePerSecond is a staic value defined as "100"

attackOverWeight is the difference between the attacker numbers and the defender numbers

timeToChangeControl is the "time to go grey" value (I think that's what they are referring to)

That's how it reads in the python file that defines the game mode.

egg

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']Regarding the formula, it looks like this:
takeOverChangePerSecond = 1.0 * attackOverWeight / timeToChangeControl

Where:
takeOverChangePerSecond is a staic value defined as "100"

attackOverWeight is the difference between the attacker numbers and the defender numbers

timeToChangeControl is the "time to go grey" value (I think that's what they are referring to)

That's how it reads in the python file that defines the game mode.

egg

So basicly its +1 (ie 2) peeps gives +100% speed, +2 gives +50%, +3 gives +33% or something like that. Edit: + percent relative to current of course.

Good Good but I think you should have to have more then 1 person with you to cap it.

solodude23 wrote:Although I do definantly want astronger flag cap times, something has to be done differently with the enemy spawning on that flag. What I mean is, there has been a bizillion times where we will go in, elmiinate like 7 guys, secure the area, dig in, and ahve all 7 guys spawn on our backs and such. THE GUYS YOU JUST KILLED come back and slaughter by appearing in the middle of nowhere.

Very very true, the time to go grey should by all accounts be sorter then the time a killed defender spawns back.
In that case the time to go grey (speaking of the flag here, not our transformation into little grey aliens) should be fairly quick [only in the sense that all the defenders have died, so no new defenders come out ], but the time to take the flag THAT should be pretty long ,representing the time to secure the area in order to have safe spawning of reinforcements [putting the table, cleaning the dishes left by the defenders and such]

and this could be a way to calm things down on the spawn kill issue. if the flag falls quickly that means that its not a safe point to spawn period.
The fact that it will be long to cap for your team means you have to put into place an effective defense position before you go on assaulting the next position.

You guys raise some great points

I think we need to consider the development of some PR server config guidelines. We have some excellent active server admins that could chime in on this. This like:
AAS CP Balance Settings
AAS Raduis - size? enabled?
Man Down & Time To Respawn
... can all dramatically affect game play and level design.

I'm too stupid to figure out the formula so one day I will time it with 1 and hopefully 2 then 3 people to get an idea of what 1 minute to go grey looks like.

IMO a single guy should not be able to grey a flag without risking being spawned upon. What the right number is... not sure .. but 3 attackers to grey a flag without likely risk of being spawned upon seems a decent starting point.

??

egg

Saobh wrote:Very very true, the time to go grey should by all accounts be sorter then the time a killed defender spawns back.
In that case the time to go grey (speaking of the flag here, not our transformation into little grey aliens) should be fairly quick [only in the sense that all the defenders have died, so no new defenders come out ], but the time to take the flag THAT should be pretty long ,representing the time to secure the area in order to have safe spawning of reinforcements [putting the table, cleaning the dishes left by the defenders and such]

and this could be a way to calm things down on the spawn kill issue. if the flag falls quickly that means that its not a safe point to spawn period.
The fact that it will be long to cap for your team means you have to put into place an effective defense position before you go on assaulting the next position.

I think this is a great Idea. It would solve both problems with what would seem like an easy fix. Is this possible?

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']I'm too stupid to figure out the formula so one day I will time it with 1 and hopefully 2 then 3 people to get an idea of what 1 minute to go grey looks like.

Roughly speaking a 1 minute countdown (to grey) should mean 30 sec countdown with 2 people and then some 20ish seconds (I'm too stupid too) for 3 people. So for 20 seconds respawn time, 1 minute coundown is a little too much.

dawdler wrote:Roughly speaking a 1 minute countdown (to grey) should mean 30 sec countdown with 2 people and then some 20ish seconds (I'm too stupid too) for 3 people. So for 20 seconds respawn time, 1 minute coundown is a little too much.

Er no, i've looked into the code and as i've understood it. (with a 1" counter)
an attackOverWeight of 2 gives a 50 seconds wait
an attackOverWeight of 3 gives a 33 seconds wait
an attackOverWeight of 4 gives a 25 seconds wait

as the takeOverChangePerSecond isn't a fixed value but the % of change per second which is taking place.
for exemple for a attackOverWeight of 3 it goes up (or down) 5% each second.
well its not really a % because that would mean it would take ages, its more of a 5%...10%...15%........100% yipee !!! now I can rush the next flag all alone ...

well I might be mistaken, should really be in bed for a quick snooze before work /

Saobh wrote:Er no, i've looked into the code and as i've understood it. (with a 1" counter)
an attackOverWeight of 2 gives a 50 seconds wait
an attackOverWeight of 3 gives a 33 seconds wait
an attackOverWeight of 4 gives a 25 seconds wait

as the takeOverChangePerSecond isn't a fixed value but the % of change per second which is taking place.
for exemple for a attackOverWeight of 3 it goes up (or down) 5% each second.
well its not really a % because that would mean it would take ages, its more of a 5%...10%...15%........100% yipee !!! now I can rush the next flag all alone ...

well I might be mistaken, should really be in bed for a quick snooze before work /

That doesnt make sense. Even with an arbritrary time to change control, increasing players to 2 will yeild a 100% increase in speed.

1.0 * 1 / 60 = 0.016
1.0 * 2 / 60 = 0.033 (which is twice as fast as 0.016)
1.0 * 3 / 60 = 0.05 (which is a rough 50% increase over 2 people)

Note that this assumes no enemy is around.

But granted, I'm pretty poor at math. I just like to argue that I'm always right

If its gonna take so long time MEC would never get a flag in a map like sharqi penisuela 32 player, or strike at karkand for USMC!

solodude23 wrote:Although I do definantly want astronger flag cap times, something has to be done differently with the enemy spawning on that flag. What I mean is, there has been a bizillion times where we will go in, elmiinate like 7 guys, secure the area, dig in, and ahve all 7 guys spawn on our backs and such. THE GUYS YOU JUST KILLED come back and slaughter by appearing in the middle of nowhere.

Agreed solodude. But also, its map design.

In Road to Kyongan Ni, the enemy spawns a good 100 meters from the flag, forcing them to move to a defensive position on the CP, not spawning into the defenses. This is great because if you kill all enemies, and clear the area, you can still expect a second 'wave' to come at you, from the hills.

Spawning elsewhere would help with the insta-death, that happens often while an attack is happening. Good call Fuzz. At least you have a chance for a quick counter attack instead of getting spawn slaughtered in a matter of milliseconds.

How could we make these spawn areas off limits to discourage spawn raping? Maybe people could spawn on something that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get onto. A building with no ladder, perhaps. You would need a way to get down without taking damage, aswell. Boxes?

Idunno, just thinking.

F.N.G. wrote:How could we make these spawn areas off limits to discourage spawn raping? Maybe people could spawn on something that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get onto. A building with no ladder, perhaps. You would need a way to get down without taking damage, aswell. Boxes?

That would be looking at the tree while ignoring the forrest. BF2 maps are wide open. Sooner or later you *will* hit an area that's easy to camp. If you make a building that no enemy can enter, well then the enemy would just wait outside the building, wouldnt they?

These are just ideas. I'm trying to figure out ways to spawn without being instantly slaughtered, without being invincible or something like that. People memorize spawn points and just wait for you to pop up so they can take the flag and get points.

Is it possible to make the relocated spawn area into a "red zone" to the team that doesn't occupy that flag? This way, you could still take a flag, without worry of someone spawning right behind you, but still have to worry about a possible quick counter attack. With this setup, you could keep the capture time relatively the same. It would prevent 3 people form popping up out of nowhere , right before the flag is turned and ruining an otherwise successfull attack. You've already killed all troops in the area. There should be no instant reinforcements in the radius.

So now it's, "take flag and await counter attack" instead of "almost take flag and be destroyed by teleporting ninja troop reinforcements."

F.N.G. wrote:Is it possible to make the relocated spawn area into a "red zone" to the team that doesn't occupy that flag? This way, you could still take a flag, without worry of someone spawning right behind you, but still have to worry about a possible quick counter attack. With this setup, you could keep the capture time relatively the same. It would prevent 3 people form popping up out of nowhere , right before the flag is turned and ruining an otherwise successfull attack. You've already killed all troops in the area. There should be no instant reinforcements in the radius.

As I've proposed in an other thread, making the flag go grey pretty quiclky (with a descent number of attackers) stops the reinforcments on that flag -> no more spawn kill.
but too keep things equal the time to go from grey to the new team color will be pretty long -> better hurry up and organize a good defense position.

this I believe is a simpler solution to this so much discussed subject.

Yeah, quick grey flag would be OK once you got your guys into the radius and whipped out the defenders, but the problem remains, that getting all your guys into the radius and through the spawn points is a pain for the attackers, as well as the spawner/defender.

It really doesn't help during the attack when you may be trying to assault through a known spawn point. People will still spawn until there are no defenders left to keep the flag up. Then you still get spawn deaths. Granted, it will be less, but it will still happen. I don't know if shorter greyout of the flag will work. It may, but I'm not sure.

How about, stop spawning all together if there is a specified number of enemy in the radius. Like, If you are defending and there are, say 3(just an example) enemy in the raduis, then all spawning stops there. The raduis may have to be made slightly smaller(or larger) for this to work.

Is this stuff set by map makers or the mod makers? If it is set by map, maybe we can test a few things to see what works, on maps that are well known. Karkand, anyone?