Project Reality Forums

Project Reality is still growing and in all honesty, it has yet another frontier to meet. We've all used RIBs, drove them and dumped them. It's not surprising no one has ever really cared much for maritime vehicles considering most of all combat action takes place far from the shoreline.

It would be a good step to take in refining these crafts and begin modeling maps around thier use. But also to see if thier larger scale cousins can make a step into PR aswell. Imagine having a light ship off the coast launching rounds inland like a floating tank with the use of coordination and communication efforts. That'd be an impressive sight and a new twist on gameplay that is getting progressively older.

Of course, the primary use of these light ships would be to offer fire support and shelling locations inland. With the hints of v0.8 having mortars, few people really have an idea how they've been implemented if these mortars are automated or player controlled with some kind of means to designate targets.

But for now it remains shrouded in secrecy, although this helps build up anticipation it also hinders new thoughts and approaches to PR. Sadly it seems we're going to have to remain in the dark until the use of indirect fire munitions finally takes it's first step out into the light. But for now, we'll have to focus on smaller scale Patrol Boats similar to RIBs (Rigid Inflatable Boats.).

Patrol Boats:

U.S.M.C and U.S. Navy Patrol Boats:

<Details: Small Unit Riverine Craft (SURC). Buhayrat Al Qadisiyah, (Sept. 12, 2007) -- HADITHA DAM, Iraq, (Sept. 16, 2007) – A Riverine Patrol Boat with Riverine Squadron 1, Riverine Group 1, Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, in support of Regimental Combat Team 2, tows several boats the riverines seized in support of the new 24-hour curfew enforcement of the waterway near the dam. The riverines warned locals of the new curfew for several days before seizing the boats of repeat curfew offenders.>


<Details: Small Unit Riverine Craft (SURC).>


<Details: Small Unit Riverine Craft (SURC). A U.S. Navy patrol boat attached to Riverine Squadron 2 patrols the waterways of the Haditha Dam Forward Operating Base in Haditha, Iraq.>


<Details: U.S. Navy patrol Boat. More information about the craft name and armaments will be posted after additional research is made.>


<Details: Mark V Special Operations Craft. Take note of the two .50 caliber machine guns and two MK19 40mm grenade launchers.>


<Details: Mark V Special Operations Craft launching a UAV.>


<Details: Patrol Boat MKIV. From the "Nations at War" mod. Of course it could use a better paint job, not that can't be fixed though.>


<Details: PBL with Navy Seals.>


<Details: CAC with Navy Seals.>


<Details: PBRMKII with Navy Seals. Yup, although the picture itself is abit older, these relics are still used in limited numbers. They're reliability and performance remains steadfast.>


British Army and Navy Patrol Boats:
There's a special news report on British vessels with a series of informative Q&A here. Also additonal information about an insurgent attack on boats here. Looks like there's potential for a new map location with the use of these crafts, hummmmm...

These series of photos are taken of British Patrol Boats in Al Basra's Shatt al-Arab waterway. The waterway, which flows into the Gulf, is a narrow stretch of river about 120 miles long. It is fed by the Euphrates, Tigris, and Karun rivers and forms the boundary between Iraq and Iran. The border between the two countries runs up the middle of the river, and in some places there are disputes about exactly where it is. It is heavily patrolled by Iraqi and British forces to prevent explosive material being smuggled across the border.

<Details: A British "Combat Support Boat" simply referred to as that. Take note of the optional metal cabin.>


<Details: A British "Combat Support Boat" simply referred to as that. Take note that it does not happen to have any armaments other than what the soldiers have themselves. The M249 pictured belongs to it's user.>


<Details: A British "Rigid Raider" on a casual patrol.>


<Details: A British "Rigid Raider" escorting a British LCVP vehicle landing craft.>


Middle Eastern Patrol Boats:

<Details: A rare photo of an Iranian Boghammer from "Operation Earnst Will." Note on the bow the box is 107mm rocket launchers and also carried 51 cal on stern, plus RPGs & SAAM missles.>


<Details: This is 1992 and it is an Iranian Boghammer brought back to Coronado after being sunk during Operation Earnest Will. Special Boat Unit-13 had two and they were used as “aggressor boats” against the fleet in exercises. If you look closely you can see the .51 cal on the rear, it also appears that it's 107mm rocket launcher pod is capable of being undeployed and stored below deck.>


<Details: An Iraqi Boghammer pictured. Pointing a machinegun upon the unidentified speedboat that has failed to respond to warnings as it races toward Iraq’s vital oil terminal in the Persian Gulf. A young Iraqi Marine radios to the vessel, warning it to turn away: “I will be required to use deadly force.” in a training excercise with American, British and Australian forces.


Light Ship examples:

U.S. Navy Light Ships:
<Details: It's a shame that these ships were decommissioned back in 1993 by the U.S. Navy. They're quite small with a rather large 75mm (3 inch) cannon and Harpoon anti-ship missles. Would have been the perfect addition to an attempt at increasing the size of PR's Navy. These ships are designated PHM, from PHM-1 to PHM-6. Although ships have been recommissioned multiple times to serve in times of conflict, so we may be able to bend the rules here.

Sadly, the smallest coastal patrol boat for the U.S. Navy currently is 170 feet long and is armed with only a 25mm cannon and MK19 grenade launcher. These ships are designated PC, from PC-1 to PC-13.>


Chinese Light Ships
<Details: A Chinese Patrol Boat. This craft is small in size but is well equipped with armaments. More information about the craft name and armaments will be posted after additional research is made.>


<Details: Another Chinese patrol boat, note the smaller size and only 2 existing cannons. More information about the craft name and armaments will be posted after additional research is made.>


Georgia (Country of Origin for the Militia faction.) Light Ships:
<Details: A Georgian patrol boat. More information about the craft name and armaments will be posted after additional research is made.>


For those that have played Desert Combat and used a ship before you'd understand the exreme amount of potential an item like this could have. However it's effectiveness all remains in the hands of coordination and teamwork, without that it becomes useless.

By the way if anyone has some information about relatively small ships with cannons mounted on them similar to the one pictured, please mention them. It seems to be a rather difficult task to dig up information on these ships as they appear to remain scarce.

A good rule of thumb for PR is that if any light ship is to be actually even thought of being brought into the game it must be something very small and crewed by 2-3 people. 1 driver/captain and 1-2 gunners for the front and/or rear cannons. Along with the fact that the sea craft must still be in service and not decommissioned permanently. But like stated previously... Ships have been recommissioned multiple times to serve in times of conflict, so we may be able to bend the rules here.

While I think this is a great idea, and well suggested Warren- much better written than other suggestions, but IMHO the problem occurs with the amount this would be used. I could see the RIB being replaced, but on what maps would small patrol craft be worth the manpower of the team? Jabal would only see them used for the first tiny part of the game- and most people would be using the APCs anyway. Qwai and Ghost Train have rivers, but a patrol boat would be an easy target and distract from the core objectives of the map. Maybe Gulf of Oman WAC and Zatar Wetlands, but craft out in the ocean wouldn't have good LOS to targets and wouldn't contribute effectively to the effort. Maybe if there were more water to land maps with a big river in it, or an island invasion map similar to Wake Island, it might be worth the effort, but right now I think it would be best to hold off until more maps like that are available and playable.

On the other hand, I think the RIB could use a tune-up and we could finally replace the vanilla version.

This isn't going far enough I want full naval battles between assault ships with marines bording them and blowing things up and destroyers and missile cruisers and aircraft and... okay, I'll calm down now. I support this idea and beyond.

Well written , Warren.
I could not agree more. Ships are an extremely important element of
modern intercontinental warfare. And since that's what you get in PR ,
It's a big missing part. It has been told before that large naval
battles aren't possible yet. Lighter ships however can and , I believe
should be brought into suitable maps , such as Op. Barracuda.
A light escort ship would be a perfect asset that fits the mission
excellently. If a modern armed force decided to conduct a shoreline
assault into a fortified position , they would by all means provide
naval support if possible. History has shown us that , on D-Day.
On the other hand , the BF2 RIB. I couldn't be happier to get rid
of it. I don't know much about military P.B.s but those shown in the
pictures seem twice as fitting for the task.

To help draw a picture to help PR users get a better idea where I'm getting at with Patrol Boats.

Imagine the map "Bi Ming" with it's dense forested woodland and it's interweaving rivers and streams of varying depth. Now, take that setting and multiply it to a size of "Fools Road" with a number of flags relatively nearby to the shoreline. Now that's what I'm talking about.

Should make for some intresting new gameplay without the common use of Jeeps, Tanks and APC's. A new, real and intresting change to PR as we know it.

and what about the Brits, PLA, MEC etc?

I think it would be interesting to have small ship combat, or brown water navy stuff, but I'm sure this is one of the things that is outside the general scope of the PR Dev team, and would lie in the auspices of a community project.

One thing that might increase the utilization of RIBs ingame would be an increased speed, though I'm unsure of their current top speed, according to FAS, it should be 45knots.

It would be interesting to see a USMC/PLA map that is a large river delta. It is also my understanding that the Russians continue to maintain a significant brown water navy.

-REad

IMO Bi Ming has very good conditions for small patrol boats. Once I had a full SQ of lmgs, lats, ect.
Wow fast replies when I checked nobody mentioned Bi ming

BloodyGabe wrote:IMO Bi Ming has very good conditions for small patrol boats. Once I had a full SQ of lmgs, lats, ect.
Wow fast replies when I checked nobody mentioned Bi ming

Zatar Wetlands as well, PBs would really open up all kinds of new options, also, while most people do drive and ditch boats, I've seen squads who stick with them and they are frighteningly effective, they show up, attack from a side people don't expect, they've got speed, flexability and if they need it, a .50 cal gun on it (Though I'd like to see the RIIBs made like the Littlebirds, a version with and without weapons), and that's just with the RIIBs. New maps could capitalize on this as well and there's already a map in the works for the Aussies called Island Chain that this would be perfect on.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:and what about the Brits, PLA, MEC etc?

Brits;
Archer class patrol vessel
3x GPMG, 20mm cannon


Dunno about MEC, there are several possibilities for PLA(N).

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:and what about the Brits, PLA, MEC etc?

an asymmetrical map where the Brits/US in the guise of marines have to use their water mobility to win the map?

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;759665']and what about the Brits, PLA, MEC etc?[/quote]

Ah, good question. I can understand your perspective on balancing team assets, but at the same time this isn't unusual. It would be great if we could accept something of this nature in an asymmetrical manner.

[quote="Dr2B Rudd""]an asymmetrical map where the Brits/US in the guise of marines have to use their water mobility to win the map?[/quote]

Exactly Rudd.

Take the map "Jabal Al Burj" for example. Do MEC have helicopters? No. But what the MEC team does have alot of geography to work on without relying heavily on transportation like the U.S.M.C may have to.

Does the British forces on "Fools Road" have tanks like Militia? No. But the British teams infantry is far superior with scoped weapons, medics and Heavy Anti-Tank.

Now to paint a picture for the battle to take place:

M.Warren wrote:Imagine the map "Bi Ming" with it's dense forested woodland and it's interweaving rivers and streams of varying depth. Now, take that setting and multiply it to a size of "Fools Road" with a number of flags relatively nearby to the shoreline. Now that's what I'm talking about.

So, we then set up the U.S.M.C. on assault against the PLA on Counter Attack mode. The U.S.M.C. Team uses the boats to travel the numerous rivers and streams on the map in order to get to these numerous flag zones as secretly as possible. The PLA must defend these locations the best they can.

Of course people may be thinking. "Well if this is Counter Attack mode, what do the Chinese get?". I would suggest giving the Chinese a "bleed" factor after so many flags are taken with a new twist instead.

If the Chinese team survives the assault I'd suggest giving them a hefty ticket increase rather than giving them vehicles for compensation. Now the game enters the theme of standard AAS mode, as the U.S.M.C. team failed to covertly take the enemy position in stealth, so now the engagement breaks out in to a fullfledged battle.

So in the end, if the U.S.M.C. uses thier boats for transportation and stealth to capture flags, they may become the victor. If not... Then the Chinese will have thier moment of vengeance with a serious ticket count to make the U.S.M.C. muster up all thier options to pull it back together.

What you think?

Dr2B Rudd wrote:an asymmetrical map where the Brits/US in the guise of marines have to use their water mobility to win the map?

Or just do a bit of research as the PLA(N) and the Royal Marines or whatnot both maintain riverine forces.

Perhaps introduce the equivalent of a support truck for riverine maps, being able to deploy bunkers/firebases on the shore as repair & rearm points for boats & troops. Light patrol ships being the equivalent of Tanks & APCs for riverine forces.

-REad

Another great suggestion from M.Warren

What about the boghammers for MEC ? It's a cheap Swedish-made patrol boat. They can be armed with various weapons, mostly HMG.

I've just read "Mission Seafighter" (James Cobb) where this kind of boat are used against UN forces by an hypothetic African union.

ReadMenace wrote:Or just do a bit of research as the PLA(N) and the Royal Marines or whatnot both maintain riverine forces.
-REad

Ofc I know this, but as far as I've seen, only US models have been done of which PR may be able to appropriate if the decision is taken to do so and the other mods can be compensated appropriately.

Dr2B Rudd wrote:

Ofc I know this, but as far as I've seen, only US models have been done of which PR may be able to appropriate if the decision is taken to do so and the other mods can be compensated appropriately.

I had to refresh like 10 times 'til that picture loaded, then I lol'd.

I'd be happy to start working on naval vehicles for different factions once I'm done with my current project. Lets make it happen Cap'n.

-REad

Warren, patrol boats and larger patrol craft get suggested pretty often. The USN RPB (formerly USMC Small Unit Riverine Craft) and MKV SOC especially. BTW, Sea Spectre is not the designation for the MKV. It is the designation for the old PB MK IV. That mod got the name wrong, but the model is very nice.

For those interested, the current RIVRONs also have Riverine Assault Boats (variants of the Special Operations Craft- Riverine used by the SBTs) and recently picked up a single CB90 for use as an experimental Riverine Command Boat.

ReadMenace wrote:One thing that might increase the utilization of RIBs ingame would be an increased speed, though I'm unsure of their current top speed, according to FAS, it should be 45knots.

You're probably looking at the specs for the 11m NSW RIB, which is not the type depicted in game. Every ship carries an RIB or two of varying size for general utility (light cargo, VBSS, rescue, etc.), but these are not the dual 500hp water-jet equipped monsters used by the SBTs and one of the MEUs(SOC).

Harrod200 wrote:Brits;
Archer class patrol vessel
3x GPMG, 20mm cannon

Dunno about MEC, there are several possibilities for PLA(N).

Archer-class patrol craft are only used by the RN detachment at Gibraltar, Harrod. And as I often say, not everything has to have an equivalent on every team.

The Rigid Raiders and Combat Support Boats, used by the RM and RE respectively, do not have weapons mounts. If the capability isn't there, we can't give it to them.

[R-DEV]Eddie Baker wrote: Archer-class patrol craft are only used by the RN detachment at Gibraltar, Harrod. And as I often say, not everything has to have an equivalent on every team.

Ok, TBH that was the only thing I could find that was suitable for the UK. Couldn't even find any pics with the optional 20mm on it, so I kinda guessed it wasn't exactly a vessel used in hot mid-east patrols.

I'd imagine that in areas like 'stan, we would be at a major disadvantage when patrolling rivers, given the forested green zones either side of them; kinda like the yanks in Vietnam. Can't be too enjoyable chugging down narrow rivers lined with trees and undergrowth so thick you can't even see more than a couple of metres in.

Tirak wrote:Zatar Wetlands as well, PBs would really open up all kinds of new options, also, while most people do drive and ditch boats, I've seen squads who stick with them and they are frighteningly effective, they show up, attack from a side people don't expect, they've got speed, flexability and if they need it, a .50 cal gun on it (Though I'd like to see the RIIBs made like the Littlebirds, a version with and without weapons), and that's just with the RIIBs. New maps could capitalize on this as well and there's already a map in the works for the Aussies called Island Chain that this would be perfect on.

I'm actually surprised why no one thought of adding RIBs to Zatar for both sides, the map is full of rivers and has sea.

Sounds good and how about the chinook or blackhawk even being able to deploy a small boat










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