Project Reality Forums

Wolfe wrote: Weapon performance vs. Weapon performance in the hands of a soldier.
BF2 does not currently use weapon sway or body momentum which are two critical factors when determining weapon performance in the hands of a soldier. Without these factors, the next best thing is to simulate them by incorporation into the weapon deviation itself. This means that cones of fire will be wider and settle times will be longer.

This is also where wiki-wannabees and military advisers get their panties in a knot; they expect the coding to match the realism of the weapon while completely ignoring other factors that allow a realistic weapon to be used in unrealistic ways.

Some people want weapon performance to be represented by the coding, and weapon performance in the hands of a soldier to be represented by their mouse. The problem with that style of coding is that it allows players to aim/shoot as fast as they can move their mouse: turn your mouse 1/4 inch and your 180lb. soldier turns 360 degrees with little or no loss of accuracy. If you're trying to mod a super-twitch run'n gun, then this is the way to go and is exactly what we saw in PRv6. Sure, the weapon coding itself is realistic, but the weapon performance in the hands of a soldier extends into the realm of fictional super heroes. If that's what we want, then let's be honest about it and re-skin the uniforms to include capes.

All kidding aside though, deviation has to match soldier behavior, not weapon behavior. Otherwise, you'll never achieve any degree of realistic soldier combat.


Engagement distances.
The real-life M16 might have have an effective range of 500 to 800 meters, but that doesn't mean those numbers should be plugged directly into PR. Why? Because in-game, most engagements take place in relative close proximity to one another; usually 100 to 200 meters. If weapons had an effective range of 500 to 800 meters,then players can easily headshot at 200 meters.

Also, the maximum draw distance is only about 900 meters. This limits the sniper rifle to the same distance; 900 meters. If assault rifles had a range of up to 800 meters, that means the sniper rifle is only moderately better than a scoped assault rifle. This also opens the door for the assault rifle to engage and defeat a sniper at most ranges because despite less accuracy, the assault rifle can place more rounds down range, suppress the sniper's vision, and eventually score a hit/kill. This is a common scenario in PRv7 and it's a direct result of the assault rifle having too great a range for the dynamics of the game.

So, understanding the 900 meter limit, I decided to give assault rifles a 300 max range; basically allowing a 25% to 50% chance to hit. At 400 meters, you can suppress but anything beyond 400 meters is pure luck. This creates some breathing room for the marksman (effective up to 350-400) and the sniper (effective up to 950).


Effective ranges by weapon.
Based on the above, here are the ballpark effective ranges for each weapon type:

0-10 meters: Support Gunner (un-deployed version)
0-50 meters: Sub machine gun, Pistol
0-200 meters: Rifleman (Iron/reflex sight)
30-300 meters: Rifleman (scoped)
30-350 meters: Support Gunner (deployed version)
30-400 meters: Marksman
30-600 meters: LAT
50-950 meters: Sniper, HAT

In addition, every faction uses the same values for their weapon classes. In other words, the MEC assault rifle has exactly the same deviation coding as the Brit or US or China assault rifle. This is where the similarities end; their scope magnification, recoil, clip size, muzzle velocity, damage modifiers, and rates of fire are all customized to resemble their real-life counterparts. By doing this, it creates a relatively level playing field while still keeping the unique feel of each weapon.

EVEN IF, however, map sizes were increased, I would still argue against longer ranges if not only for the headshot effect. Again, if rifles are effective at longer range, then due to the BF2 engine limitations, that makes the same weapon SUPER accurate at shorter ranges and we're right back to headshots, twitching, and run'n gun.


Stances, settle times, and shift delays.
As you've noticed, all stances have been significantly increased over what they were in PRv7. This is a direct result of decreasing the effective range of the weapons which was explained above. The crouch and prone have the same modifier to help downplay prone spamming. The stand modifier is significantly higher to guard against jack-in-the-box shooting; the technique of crouching then rapidly standing/firing and crouching again. Unfortunately, BF2 does not offer any kind of deviation penalty to stance changes, so the next best thing was to noticeably decrease accuracy while standing versus crouching.

Settle times have also been significantly increased. To reach perfect accuracy, movement (walking/running) requires 2.5 seconds of settle time, and firing requires 1.0 seconds of settle time. Turning (mouse movement/tracking) requires a maximum 1.3 settle time but it's completely dependent upon how fast you turn. Following a moving target at 50 meters will not cause any turn deviation, but rapidly turning 180 degrees will. This is meant to simulate a soldier's momentum and helps against twitch shooters.

A shift delay is the wait time between trigger pulls. In PRv75, only the sniper rifle had a shift delay which prevented it from being fired faster than once every 1-2 seconds. No other weapon had a shift delay which meant that assault rifles could be single-shot fired as quickly as you can click your mouse (as much as 10 shots per second). This allowed for an exploit in the game which I won't get into here, but the bottom line is that shift delays were added to all assault rifles and pistols; basically anything that has a single-fire mode. In PRv8, weapons cannot be fired faster than is mechanically possible in real life; about 3-4 shots per second.


Putting it all together.
My ultimate goal of the new deviation model was three-fold:

1. Formulate a paper/scissors/rock hierarchy that balances weapon distance, versatility, and power.
2. Reward squad cohesion and teamwork through focused fire while punishing the run'n gun mouse-twitch Rambo.
3. Create realistic infantry combat engagements that last longer than 10 seconds and that use more than 3 bullets.


All in all, I think I succeeded at achieving those goals but it's not perfect, yet. There we so many fundamentals changed that trying to predict exactly how they will work in full-scale combat is impossible, so there's no doubt that tweaks will be necessary. But we're definitely on the right track. Combined with Chuc's excellent work on the new animations, PRv8 combat creates a more realistic tactical feel. After playing PRv8 CQB, PRv7 feels cheap and arcade-ish. It's a huge step forward.

I think people are having trouble with PRv8 because they're trying to play infantry like they did in PRv75 and that just isn't going to work. SLOW DOWN. Take your time. Don't be in such a hurry, your patience and aim will be rewarded.



In regard to settle times:
Rifles (includes both iron sights and scopes):
Per shot: 1 second
Mouse turn: 1.3 seconds (only if rapid 180deg turn)
Walking: 2.5 seconds

Marksman (same as rifleman)

Sniper:
Per shot: 8 seconds
Mouse turn: 1.6 seconds (only if rapid 180deg turn)
Walking: 8 seconds

Saw (undeployed):
Per shot: 1.6 seconds (allows 8 bullets before reaching max deviation)
Mouse turn: 1.9 seconds (only if rapid turn)
Walking: 3.3 seconds

Saw (deployed):
Per shot: 1.1 seconds (allows 12 bullets before reaching max deviation)
Mouse turn: 1.6 seconds (only if rapid turn)
Walking: 3.3 seconds

Grenadier launcher:
Per shot: none - dictated by reload speed
Mouse turn: 1.3 seconds (only if rapid turn)
Walking: 2.5 seconds

LAT:
Per shot: none - dictated by reload speed
Mouse turn: 1.3 seconds (only if rapid turn)
Walking: 2.1 seconds

HAT:
Per shot: none - dictated by reload speed
Mouse turn: 5.1 seconds (visual)
Walking: 5.1 seconds (visual)

Pistol:
Per shot: 0.2 seconds
Mouse turn: 0.6 seconds
Walking: 1.1 seconds

Dragunov wrote:Ahh, great stuff.

So "crouching = proning" when it comes to accuracy??

Is the settle time dependant on the time you look down the sights or stop moving? For example, when a sniper runs and croutches, does the 8 seconds start the point he stops so that a quick shot right after he zooms will be accurate or does it start once he zooms in??

Thanks

T.A.Sharps wrote:I'm not sure if I missunderstood the Sniper deviation.

After you go prone, settle for a 2.5 seconds, see your target, move the cross hairs onto it, fire, and your bullet hit at the center of the cross hairs?

Then wait 8 seconds to fire accurately again?

Is it still 8 seconds trying to hit a target at 700 meters?

What does the breathing by hitting the 3 key do then? Or does it just give you something audible to tell you when you are settled for 8 seconds? I am never sure if I still have to keep holding the key or not.

Troubadour wrote:I still have no clue where I am going wrong and feel the aiming system is quite ridiculous. When I drop to prone, zoom in, count for 3 seconds, watch the enemy for a little longer, finally tap my left mouse-button... the round hits 5 meters to the left.

What did I do wrong here, I am prone, the target is within range, the sighting is dead on, I was patient and waited for the shot. Yet I am still punished.

I am punished because he turns around flips it on automatic and sends about 30 rounds in my direction and one manages to find my head. IMHO and the opinion I've gotten from several others, is that it is not more realistic. It has only turned it into a complete spray and pray, it is better to quickly tap the mouse as quick as you can in hopes you'll get lucky with a shot, then it is to take the time to aim it out.

JTF2-Machina wrote:If anything the accuracy standing up needs to be decreased.

JTF2-Machina wrote:Ok the deviation makes sense, but it is overdone, imo. When you first set your sight up, there should be a slight deviation for like 1 second, if possible there should be no deviation if only adjusting the aim by very small movements.