Project Reality Forums

Hi.
I just played this game for the first time ever and I must say that in all parts except these three I am satisfied. I guess I could do everything a bit differently if it was my own mod but I wouldn't really need to as this is one of the best mods I've ever played.


But the deviation* is horrible. Really, I understand that it should be bad when not aiming and running but I was ducking and standing still. We are talking about professional US soldiers here and they should be able to aim better than they do now.

I was like perhaps 50 meters from an insurgent, he was crawling on the ground and looking the other way. So I think "ahh great, perfect" and I start shooting one bullet after the other with a few millisecond stops between each. Guess what... out of the 10 bullets or so I shot, like 5-6 missed. They didn't even hit the body that I was aiming on. What's up with that? That's more realistic than it is in real life. At least from what I know from shooting on targets. And trying to hit something while standing up or bursting...thats just not going to happen. Make the recoil like in Counter Strike Source or Insurgency Mod for HL2...Anything than this is better.


The sprint is horrible to. The animations for the sprint counter walking keep mixing themselves up and glitching. The sprint is also kinda unresponsive sometimes.

Also jumping down is horrible. Like any kid I've jumped from like small rooftops, trees and what ever. Alot higher than these professional soldiers can do without feeling hurt. Common damnit... we are talking about a reality based game, not a game based on a planet where gravity is 2-3X stronger than here. <g>



Oh I also noticed the chat is somewhat unresponsive and it seems as if you have to press the buttons extra long/hard for the letters to appear. Dunno, this is a minor issue.


Everything ellse I like (still learning some things tho). But damnit, the Recoil makes the game nearly unplayable and the sprint/gravity is just fucked up.




ALso I wanted to add a poll but it seems I can't for what ever reason. (What's up with Forum admins and not allowing polls anyway? Or maybe I missed it ) So could some moderator make this into a poll with like "Do you agree?"
"Yes...
"Kindoff/With some
"Not really/With one
"No
"Other (Specify).


*I meant deviation, not recoil. So in most cases on the first page where recoil is written it is actually deviation that I am talking about.

What I would just like to add is that I fear that this game will get its own BF2 effects.
Like, *** soon as you see an enemy you press "prone" and fall down to the ground as you definetly wouldn't in real life just because that's the only way to hit something.

You'd probably duck/go on your knees and aim or just stand and aim if he's not seeing you.

Have you waited 3 seconds before you shot your first bullet?
If you waiting this magic seconds you will hit.

Make the recoil like in Counter Strike Source or Insurgency Mod for HL2...Anything than this is better.

WUT
The comparing with Insurgency is ok but CSS? Whats next Unreal Tournament or Quake?. CSS have nearly no feelable recoil.


The jumping thing is a BF thing. Some times you can jump from a top of a house and you dont get damaged and sometimes you get nearly killed by using steps.

hall0 wrote:Have you waited 3 seconds before you shot your first bullet?
If you waiting this magic seconds you will hit.



WUT
The comparing with Insurgency is ok but CSS? Whats next Unreal Tournament or Quake?. CSS have nearly no feelable recoil.


The jumping thing is a BF thing. Some times you can jump from a top of a house and you dont get damaged and sometimes you get nearly killed by using steps.

Well as I said, anything is better than the recoil now.
You shouldn't be forced to wait 3 seconds between each shot neither.
One second or half a second should be enough. I mean try standing like 150 meters away. From that far away it won't hit anything and the bursts are just insane. They aren't in any way responsive to how the actual gun moves but just start shooting wider and wider for some reason.
Actually when you think about it, the aim is pretty much as CSS already, just alot wider. It isn't responsive to the guns movements, it just gets worse and worse and depends only on what position you are in and how much you are shooting.

The thing is that it should be like...let's say I shoot a bullet and then my gun moves a bit to the left/right/up/down. By correcting this move and shooting again I should be able to make a perfect hit. This is not the case of RealityMoD



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p7XPln8 ... re=related
:Actually it does have some...but most of it is like in this game but just less massive. (bullets missing automaticly instead of the gun moving in a different direction and as a result bullets missing).

What you're talking about is not recoil.

cplgangster wrote:the thing with the polls is they get annoying aswell way to many where springing up at one point all i would see was polls in every section as the latest thing arghh arghh get away scary polls scary nightmares they are.

The thing is any trained soldier is still going to have to have some sort of breathing sorted out before a shot i dont think many people can pull a weapon staight on someone that is about 50 meters away and get 10 rounds in quick succesion onto the target.

Sure but then simulate the breathing or make the screen tilt back and forth a bit when youre tired (as it did before when you were wounded but alot less). Don't dumb down the recoil and make it unresponsive to corrections in manual aiming damnit

Ondskan wrote:Hi.
I just played this game for the first time ever and I must say that in all parts except these three I am satisfied. I guess I could do everything a bit differently if it was my own mod but I wouldn't really need to as this is one of the best mods I've ever played.


But the Recoil is horrible. Really, I understand that it should be bad when not aiming and running but I was ducking and standing still. We are talking about professional US soldiers here and they should be able to aim better than they do now.

I was like perhaps 50 meters from an insurgent, he was crawling on the ground and looking the other way. So I think "ahh great, perfect" and I start shooting one bullet after the other with a few millisecond stops between each. Guess what... out of the 10 bullets or so I shot, like 5-6 missed. They didn't even hit the body that I was aiming on. What's up with that? That's more realistic than it is in real life. At least from what I know from shooting on targets. And trying to hit something while standing up or bursting...thats just not going to happen. Make the recoil like in Counter Strike Source or Insurgency Mod for HL2...Anything than this is better.


The sprint is horrible to. The animations for the sprint counter walking keep mixing themselves up and glitching. The sprint is also kinda unresponsive sometimes.

Also jumping down is horrible. Like any kid I've jumped from like small rooftops, trees and what ever. Alot higher than these professional soldiers can do without feeling hurt. Common damnit... we are talking about a reality based game, not a game based on a planet where gravity is 2-3X stronger than here. <g>



Oh I also noticed the chat is somewhat unresponsive and it seems as if you have to press the buttons extra long/hard for the letters to appear. Dunno, this is a minor issue.


Everything ellse I like (still learning some things tho). But damnit, the Recoil makes the game nearly unplayable and the sprint/gravity is just fucked up.




ALso I wanted to add a poll but it seems I can't for what ever reason. (What's up with Forum admins and not allowing polls anyway? Or maybe I missed it ) So could some moderator make this into a poll with like "Do you agree?"
"Yes...
"Kindoff/With some
"Not really/With one
"No
"Other (Specify).

no insult intended, but have you ever fired a rifle in real life? this game more closely resembles the handling of a real rifle than any other game ive ever played. css is ridiculous. the rifles in css "feel" like they weigh 3 ounces at most, and shoot .22's (not .223's or .22 magnums, i mean the tiny ones.) ive fired sks' and an m14, and weapons that fire the respective calibers handle very similar in game as they do in reality.

and in terms of fall damage, you have to take into account that these guys are carrying a weapon, a knife, ammo, a shovel, medical supplies, grenades, body armor, a canteen, maybe some MRE's, and a **** load more of stuff that would make it hurt a bit more if you fell off a roof.

i do, however agree with you on the sprint issue. 100m of stamina is wayy too little.

WildBill1337 wrote: and in terms of fall damage, you have to take into account that these guys are carrying a weapon, a knife, ammo, a shovel, medical supplies, grenades, body armor, a canteen, maybe some MRE's, and a **** load more of stuff that would make it hurt a bit more if you fell off a roof.

you make a good point, there is no jumping off of a roof IRL or in PR, only falling and falling hurts when you weigh 220 lb with gear.

Teek wrote:you make a good point, there is no jumping off of a roof IRL or in PR, only falling and falling hurts when you weigh 220 lb with gear.

what about reducing the fall damage to represent actually climbing down off the roof? obviously this would only be for single story buildings.

master of the templars wrote:what about reducing the fall damage to represent actually climbing down off the roof? obviously this would only be for single story buildings.

Have you ever climbed out a 2nd story window (or roof)? I have a freind who dose Parkour, but he isnt carrying body armour, 4 Nades, 4 li of water, 250 rounds of ammo, 3 smoke nades, a full sized rifle, radio equipment, Helmets, NVGs, ect. A little less nimble now, huh? with that much weight, you could sprain your ankle, now lets see you run.

Deadfast wrote:What you're talking about is not recoil.

x2

deviation is different than recoil. deviation is an invisible ring that shrinks in the center of your screen untill you have 100% accurasy. you need to wait for the ring to shrink before getting high accurasy. Hence 3 seconds.

Ondskan wrote:What's up with that? That's more realistic than it is in real life. At least from what I know from shooting on targets.

Hm... Did your targets shoot back?

As everyone has pointed out, it is deviation that I was talking about. Not Recoil.

Sorry guys! The recoil is great. (Blame my crappy english )

Hm... Did your targets shoot back?

No but neither did the insurgent I was aiming at...

Hi Exiled. Thanks for the awesome post.
It seems as if you are much more knowledgable than me in most areas but I still have to say I disagree with you in some cases.

Th3Exiled wrote:Welcome to the forums.



As others have pointed out, recoil and aim are two different things. Recoil is the forces imparted upon the weapon and the shooter when he/she fires their weapon. This generally causes the muzzle of the weapon to "climb" or rise. In PR there are two things commonly referred to when talking about aim.

1. The aiming of the gun performed by the player.
2. The simulation of how a gun would be handled by a soldier.

I surely hope that you can agree that all the factors of aiming a weapon cannot be represented purely by the use of a mouse, and if it could, it would not be possible with the current engine that PR uses. The entire purpose of the current deviation, which is what you are actually referring to, is to promote realistic use of the weapon, improve teamwork, create a certain degree of balance and improve game play.

Yep. My fault, It was the deviation that I meant. The recoil is quite good.
And no I've not shot with a rifle, just guns. But I've checked out video of it and looked at competitions and honestly I've seen people hit the target quite accurately even in short bursts. And trying to simulate what ever weight or exhaustion the soldiers may have by automaticly making the aim worse does not make the issue any better. Two wrongs don't make a right as they say. I am still of the opinion that the screen should tilt a bit back and forth or that the gun itself should move a bit when you're tired as it does in some games. This way you could actually simulate the physical conditions but still give you as a player/soldier the chance to through training improve your aim even when you're tired by compensating for the guns movements for example.

I'm not exactly sure how that makes sense to you, but how can something be more realistic than real life? 5-6 misses from 50 metres is pretty good when you only wait for what.... a few milliseconds between shots. For maximum accuracy for a standard PR rifle you must wait 2.5 seconds after moving, the obvious use your sights, 1 second in-between shots and either be in the kneeling or prone position (prone has the same deviation modifier as kneeling). Also avoid swinger your view around quickly while trying to shoot an enemy as this will increase the deviation. Without the deviation you would encounter those “leet” insta-proners all the time and it would be more of a problem (note that deviation for moving and firing was nonexistent in versions dating before v0.7). Although I personally like having the deviation I will admit that it does need some refining.

To be frank I was probably closer than 50 meters. Maybe 20-30. I'm no soldier and never would like to be one so I do not really know how it all would be in a real combat situation. But I am sure that there wouldn't be a magical force forcing my bullets away in a random direction.
I know that this is to compensate for different factors as mentioned above but then you might aswell implement the gun actually moving and the screen tilting a bit or difusing itself instead of this magical deviation. Something that you can actually correct.

Sprint is fine, it rewards the players who take it slow and helps people stay together and also makes sure people are not constantly running. And the sprint animation not always playing is a bf2 problem. I’m not sure as what you mean by unresponsive, could you perhaps explain it further?

You can't start a sprint shortly after you've finnished one even though you still have energy left. This is just stupid. You obviously can do that in real life. Perhaps it is not the most recommended thing to do (Run, stop, Run, stop) but it is definetly something you can do.
Also no system in a reality based mod should "reward" people for playing the way you or I belive is the correct way to play. It should reward people depending only on if they survive and if they complete the objectives they need to complete.

The main problem here is that you don’t realise how far you are jumping down. Jumping normally in game sends you a couple of feet into the air. Falling down a distance of about three metres will cause you to start bleeding which is acceptable in my opinion, considering these soldiers carry/wear what must be around 30-40 kg of kit. Also it stops people from running down cliff faces and jumping off buildings to get away from enemies, which is a good thing. Also this fall damage isn’t even that much of a problem if you are in a squad (unless they don’t stick together or no medic is present), which you should be.

This could go on for ever. Sure there's a 30-40kg kit.
But in reality someone falling down more than two or three meters would probably soften their fall by bending his/her knees and perhaps even ones hands. As someone said. There's people jumping down from higher buildings and doing all sorts of crazy stuff in parkour. Here if you jump down something as high as a meter or two you see blood all over your screen.
I Know this is pure luck but people have actually survived falls from airplanes hundreds of meters up in the sky. I just don't like the fact that in some games you can jump down super high towers without barely getting hurt and in some games you can barely jump down a one story high building without feeling the pain.

Are you talking about the All/Team/Squad chat system? Neither the text chat nor VoIP are changeable without breaking the law, so what you are encountering is either a compatibility issue, a software issue or a hardware issue.

Yeah maybe.

The screen never moved when you were injured in PR or bf2. Also it is a bit more complicated than that and the devs say it is hardcoded. Deviation has not been "dumbed" down, it is actually more complicated and requires tactics and good positioning to be used to its fullest.

I'm positive that I saw a video where when a medic healed someone their screen started tilting back and forward and like getting difused.



_____


So basicly, all I'd like to see is a more controllable enviroment.
Where alot of things affect you but where all of these things are possible to correct. Make the recoil huge, make the screen tilt, make the sniper scope move around if you're tired. But don't give me magical deviation that is completely unrealistic. You've seen the same thing with snipers in BF2.
(I don't know about here, never goten my hands on a sniper kit yet!!! )

If you don't aim with them you'll miss completely, even if the damn barrel is stuck up your enemies arse. I agree that you should aim crappy if you're not aiming through your ironsight/scope. I love the fact that there's no crosshair in the middle of the screen. But i just hate the deviation. Just hate it :/ Especially when its as large as here or in BF2 for the Sniper rifle.


Anyway, pretty much played this game the whole saturday yesterday.
Haven't had a gaming day/night like that in months! Usually I have other things to do or just can't be bothered to play a game for like 10 hours straight. But Project Reality just kicks ***.

If only the deviation and jumping could be fixed.
Heck even the sprinting isn't as annoying as I first thought it to be, though it's still kinda lame.

Ondskan wrote:Hi Exiled. Thanks for the awesome post.
It seems as if you are much more knowledgable than me in most areas but I still have to say I disagree with you in some cases.


Yep. My fault, It was the deviation that I meant. The recoil is quite good.
And no I've not shot with a rifle, just guns. But I've checked out video of it and looked at competitions and honestly I've seen people hit the target quite accurately even in short bursts. And trying to simulate what ever weight or exhaustion the soldiers may have by automaticly making the aim worse does not make the issue any better. Two wrongs don't make a right as they say. I am still of the opinion that the screen should tilt a bit back and forth or that the gun itself should move a bit when you're tired as it does in some games. This way you could actually simulate the physical conditions but still give you as a player/soldier the chance to through training improve your aim even when you're tired by compensating for the guns movements for example.

Unfortunately that is eithe not possible with the Bf2 engine, or the DEVs havent found a way to add scope sway yet. From what i've heard, you can add scope sway, but the bullet will always hit the center of the screen

To be frank I was probably closer than 50 meters. Maybe 20-30. I'm no soldier and never would like to be one so I do not really know how it all would be in a real combat situation. But I am sure that there wouldn't be a magical force forcing my bullets away in a random direction.
I know that this is to compensate for different factors as mentioned above but then you might aswell implement the gun actually moving and the screen tilting a bit or difusing itself instead of this magical deviation. Something that you can actually correct.

Same as above


This could go on for ever. Sure there's a 30-40kg kit.
But in reality someone falling down more than two or three meters would probably soften their fall by bending his/her knees and perhaps even ones hands. As someone said. There's people jumping down from higher buildings and doing all sorts of crazy stuff in parkour. Here if you jump down something as high as a meter or two you see blood all over your screen.
I Know this is pure luck but people have actually survived falls from airplanes hundreds of meters up in the sky. I just don't like the fact that in some games you can jump down super high towers without barely getting hurt and in some games you can barely jump down a one story high building without feeling the pain.

Have you actually tried jumping with a 40kg backpack? Bending your knees wont help much as your legs wont be able to hold anyway

My comments in red

Im with you on the fall damage, only slightly though, the soldiers have very weak ankles, even with the backpack wieght youd crumple and roll to the floor from some hiegfhts you jump from before properly injuring yourself, it just dosn't seem consistant as some smalls slopes seem to break my legs

However when you talk about jumping off of a one storey high building with battle gear on, would you care to prove your point? lol

The deviation is a mere 1.33 seconds, if you can plant accurate rounds at 50m and shoot off 10 rounds on a target in under 10 seconds with someone else shooting at you then you can have a prize right now just wait a second between shots, 1.33 seconds results in zero deviation but the deviation works in a cone (the further away the target the more innaccurate the rounds are) so if you can just chill out a lil bit you can still shoot off a fair few fast rounds it just means you have to THINK about it! no more point and click

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkhlEcrkT7k&feature=related

Notice how many soldiers are there shooting, if we could all have magic CSS aim then thatd sound like a machine gun

The "magic force" that stops your bullets going where you want them to go is the simple knowledge there might be one bullet coming the other way which does go where it's wanted to go

The sprint is unresponsive during the first few bars of refilling, also dont use it all the time to get everywhere, us it in shorts burst (use 2 bars and let one recharge, rinse and repeat) as it is anyway the standard running speed in PR can beat to current 100m Sprinting world record so I dno what folk can complain about

finally never ever compare PR to the ******* child the is counter strike, this is a slower more tactical and well thought out game, not a run and gun "bang bang bang" in a "few milliseconds" game like counter strike is, which is awful

the gmae is about the "feel" of reality, not surviving and capturing flags

Oki guys try to work with me here a bit
I was actually about to agree with the 40kg backpack and all when I actually figured that ain't true. You don't have 40 kg backpacks most of the time. The soldiers in Iraq don't have it at least and the insurgents REALLY don't have it. In this case the insurgent force should at least be able to jump like a real bunny (no not bunny jumping ) as they are very lightweight. Only lone wolf snipers or longrange special forces have heavy backpacks and they often setup a basecamp, leave the heaviest equipment there and move out against the enemy. Really, I'd like to see a war where people fight with 40-50 kg rucksacks on them. If war could be funny then that would make it funny. Don't make this game "more real" than it's supposed to be.


The thing is that sadly, the deviation ehre is similiar to CSS. Wanting to see it or not. It is just as CSS almost unresponsive to the recoil/movement of the gun. While the recoil in itself makes it difficult to aim after many bullets fired, the deviation in itself is larger than the recoil. The difference is just that the deviation in CSS is alot smaller than here.

I think you could do (I think) is code moving as shooting.
For example bind every step you make or every second you move to a pendelum recoil that moves the gun in different directions as you move and continues to move it less and less after you've stoped.

I also don't get why we have recoil at all if it doesn't represent the actual strain every shot makes on a soldier, forcing us to have deviation also. We could simply have no recoil at all and just a bunch of deviation then (that you have to wait for to disappear). Having both recoil and magical deviation is kinda to much. So you have to correct the recoil and then you also have to wait for the deviation.


YouTube - Insurgency Mod Gameplay ((Insurgency Mod))
Just look at this. The recoil does it all by itself. The recoil is huge if you walk or dont aim. But at the same time you're able to hit something if you're standing up and shooting. This game (reality mod) forces you to prone every time you want to shoot and ends up portraying an unrealistic enviroment where people throw themselves on the ground as soon as they spot an enemy (Which should actually fuck up your aim as it takes time to addapt to a prone position) instead of just stoping, aiming and shooting standing or kneeing.

This is all the "magical deviations" fault.

PS: The recoil is even better in RealityMod than in Insurgency as it is larger.
But having a large recoil and a big deviation...Just to much.

There used to be minimal deviation, and massive recoil in PR before (0.6) but it didnt really work out that well. People were headshotting eachother from 200+ meters....