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With all of the noble intentions that come with he new APC system, no good has really come of it. APC's are still being used as Light tanks, and squads are still stuck without a ride.

Yes there are times when dedicated Mech. Infantry squads dominate, but in 90% of pub games, that organization isn't present. If you want to force Infantry to rely on APC's, you need to force the APC's to rely on the Infantry. Solution? Remove the LAV-25, WZ551, and Warrior. BTR-60 maybe. THe problem with all of those vehicles is that they have the uber 30mm cannons that allow them to move off and shred the enemy on their own. They need to be replaced by vehicles that are more stryker-like. In every public server I've seen, I've found that you are much more likely to encounter a Stryker working with infantry, then say an LAV, simply because a Stryker cannot go toe to toe against another APC. Since the attempt has been made to make the APC more Infantry oriented, make it so it can only engage Infantry. An example of a good replacement would be the AAVP7A1 for the LAV-25 (Please don't lock this as another AAVP7A1 suggestion thread, which it's not, that was just an example from the top of my head.)


Thoughts?

(And don't bother with "learn 2 apc noob" posts. This suggestion comes from frequent play in public servers.)


Suggested Replacements (inb4gomodelityerself)

• USMC - AAVP7A1
• BAF - FV432 'Bulldog'
• PLA - Type 90 APC

Bring back Light transports and multi-seated trucks.

We could always bring Light Transport back...

Tbh, if we are forced to take IFV's out of game, well I'm gonna be angry.

Also, no matter if it's a .50 or a 30mm cannon, if there is something with armour, people will be scared and hide from it. The only difference being your Stryker would probably die more often.

This is a player problem, not a PR problem. The best thing is to have an APC directly in your squad.

Just because some players can't use an asset does not mean that said asset should be nerfed, for example...

75% of the people I've ever seen pick up a sniper kit can't shoot a barn door 3feet away, does that mean sniper rifles should be removed?

I'd say about 40-50% of the players I have seen get in helis have crashed them after about a minute or two of flight (if that sometimes) does that mean that helis should be removed because lots of players can't use them properly?

You don't seem to be thinking much further than the US forces, what are the Brits and Chinese going to use instead if you get rid of all cannon carrying apcs? Your asking for a huge amount of work modelling and coding to replace these vehicles and it just doesn't seem to be worth it.

@Scot - That's good that infantry hide from APC's, they should be a force to be recokened with. But you should not have Hunter-Killer teams of APC's roaming around the map killing other APC's when there are infantry forced to walk to the front.

@Farks - I know it's a player problem. The biggest problem with PR is the players. No matter how realistic the mod is made to be, it will always be a game, and will always be played as a game. In a perfect world, having an APC in your squad that always worked with you would be the perfect solution, but you can almost always see an APC Squad take 3 APC's and run off tanking it up somewhere, leaving infantry alone and without a ride. This would make it much harder for APC's to go off and act as Light Tanks on their own.


@vilhelm - You present a good argument, but I think a Light Tank APC is more of a game changer than a bad sniper or bad pilot, simply because now Infantry are often left without a ride, and there is no comparable change that can be made for helicopters. Also my post has been expanded to include suggested vehicles, none of which I expect to get implemented.

I think apcs being used as "light tanks" is the only way you can use apc in some maps. Think Qwai on PLA side, i am not going to be a passenger in a map where there are tow humvees, no way. On the US side, i am not going to be a passenger in a map where there are tanks on the other side. Fools road, tanks and tow brdms, same thing. Kozelsk, tanks, at-guns and tow brdms. Insurgensy maps are pretty much the only maps that apc transport is kinda safe, only bombcars and ieds to worry about.

Walking is safer since it only takes 1 medic to stay behind to revive everybody after the rest of the squad is pwned.

Fess|3-5| wrote: @vilhelm - You present a good argument, but I think a Light Tank APC is more of a game changer than a bad sniper or bad pilot, simply because now Infantry are often left without a ride, and there is no comparable change that can be made for helicopters. Also my post has been expanded to include suggested vehicles, none of which I expect to get implemented.

I understand your point mate but it just does seem to be a case of 'Can't code players'. I've seen (and i'm sure you've seen) some examples of apcs being used brilliantly with supporting infantry. I think a more subtle change is need rather than just removing them. Maybe something like you need 3 people in a squad to be allowed to crew an apc. Thus meaning that the apc is either under a SL's orders, has a responsibility to it's SM's or is part of a larger groups of apcs and tanks (an armoured squad if you will).

As a player who loves to run around in any type of armored vehicle, I have noticed that rarely do squads call for APC's to carry them. When I have a APC squad, I always try to take squads to the front lines because I know what happens when any type of armored asset gets to far ahead of the infantry especially on insurgency maps. This normally leads to destroyed APC/Tank/IFV. However I the rare occasion that I receive a request for pick up I try to get that squad to where ever they need to go. The biggest problem is that most squads that need pick up are(at least from the matches I have played) deep behind enemy lines. Because of that fact its impossible to get to them with out risking the APC. On that note, one of the most effective counters to APC's(besides HATs) is another APC. Don't forget that APCs fire support is sometimes more helpful then taking a full squad to some obscure place on the map, not always true but most of the time it is.

What are you talking about? Strykers and even HMMWVs are used as mobile machine gun nests. Really, you'd have to take the gun off. Even if it fired nothing but 9mm pistol rounds people would still use it to rape infantry.

Sounds like all you want APCs to do is be a taxi. While they can carry troops into combat on most maps it's better to leave the infantry dismounted rather than drive around and give some ******* eight kills and lose eighteen tickets.

This suggestion is made because the DEV's seem like they are trying to force Infantryto work with APC's anyway by taking away all of the other methods of transport. If they're going to force them to work together, they might as well go all out (by implementing my suggestion). That or just bring back Light transports (even if they're unarmed).

LOAD UP TEAMSPEAK. I can not believe how underused teamspeak is. It is essential to work toegether with an apc squad. TS make PR sooo much more fun. Attatching a squad to an apc or even have whole convoys going is only duable with teamspeak.

When TS was present it always worked for a charm for me. I asked for pick up apc loaded me up and dropped me off somewhere secure 400m off the action or so and started supporting me. Picking up another squad to refinforce me, no problem.
We even got convoys going, 2 apcs in a striker and a loaded humvee on point going for a cash on ramiel. WE got like 4 cashes in 15 min.

The problem is COMMUNICATION. If you are busy in the apc you oftentimes overread the TEXT comms.

I thought APC's were going to be the only transport on most 0.85 maps,but we still have the big support trucks that fit a lot of people.

Reviving is another "issue",people know that when you get nailed inside a vehicle -
you're dead and if you're on foot you can be revived "50" times.

The only "solution" I can think of:get rid of support trucks (keep the logistics),3 people to get a crewman kit and 5 people to cap a flag.

I am guessing that most people would ride in the APC versus going on foot all the way.
The crewmen would also know (eventually) that if they take off leaving 25 people stranded at their main - there is a high chance of kick vote against them

-Well, I think the problem is that the DEVs didn't take it far enough. Trucks are still plentiful and hence there's no need to use APCs as transport on most maps. For APCs to actually become Armored Personnel Carriers a few things have to happen:

Remove other Transport Vehicles
Have APCs with only mounted MGs mostly(No crewman restriction on the MG spot)
Increase the amount of AT rounds for LAT kits(Or increase ammo points in bags or decrease ammo point requirements for AT rounds)

Tartantyco wrote:-Well, I think the problem is that the DEVs didn't take it far enough. Trucks are still plentiful and hence there's no need to use APCs as transport on most maps. For APCs to actually become Armored Personnel Carriers a few things have to happen:

Remove other Transport Vehicles
Have APCs with only mounted MGs mostly(No crewman restriction on the MG spot)
Increase the amount of AT rounds for LAT kits(Or increase ammo points in bags or decrease ammo point requirements for AT rounds)

/\ Is exactly what I mean.

Unarmed APCs would be great for gameplay, and give IFVs a reason to exist: becoming the attack helicopters of the land, on maps without tanks.

Are unarmed APCs realistic? No.

So, MG-mounted APCs are the best option.

I think a few of the problems are: No firing through port-holes (IIRC you can shoot out of most IFVs through gun ports?) make having it full manned is not as useful as it could be; Having an APC in your squad means -1 (2 for guns?) infantry man in your squad, and it pulls the APC off duty with other squads; no commanders in publics co-ordinating pick-up / drop-off efforts; very few "locked squad" APCs, so you often end up with BOTH APCs in one armoured squad, which inevitably leads to buddying up with indestructible autocannon-of-death slaughterers.

The only reason the stryker is closer to the infantry on Qwai is because he needs the HAT guy to protect him from the PLA armored units. But no one wants to ride in the APC on either side because it's too dangerous; with all the TOWs and tanks driving around, an APC is a coffin on wheels. Once you get close to the frontline, you're safer on foot, where at least you can hide in a ditch. On Jabal, people use the Stryker as a mobile armored .50 cal because the only major threat to it is a BRDM that is roughly equal to the Stryker in firepower (and is used in about the same way).

On Muttrah however, I see the most teamwork between APCs and grunts. Grunts use the APC to land, and set up a base. Then they push forward, APC rapes everything in the open, grunts mop up any survivors.

Maybe you'd see more teamwork if inf and APCs were in the same squad more often. Mechanized squads with 4 troops and 2 crew tend to keep the IFV/APC nearby for transport and heavy support.

Another major reason APC is not critical as transport is because most maps are 2km (and some 1km). So walking is still an option.

Hopefully v0.9 we can have more maps that walking is not a very pleasant option, ala kashan and qinling, albeit on those maps you have alot less infantry due to heavy assets used.

Fess|3-5| wrote:

Suggested Replacements (inb4gomodelityerself)

• USMC - AAVP7A1
• BAF - FV432 'Bulldog'
• PLA - Type 90 APC

or

Bring back Light transports and multi-seated trucks.

I would not oppose some phasing in of the above APCs, as they are used irl etc.

Complete removal of the LAV/warrior etc should not happen as they are realistic assets. We cannot mod players.

Light transports = yay

Trucks = nay I've made a thread about 'trucker madness' already.

-Well, I think the problem is that the DEVs didn't take it far enough.

That is true as well I think, the number of trans trucks is rather incredible.

The problem is not so much that APC are raping everything, but Infantry are way to weak against them.

Every squad would IRL (dragging that in!) have several LAW's that would rape any APC in its path.

How about dropping the LAT from selectable kit and adding it in underneath the unscoped rifleman with 6 mags and no extra ammo? If infantry squads actually tended to carry AT weapons then APC's would think twice about running around like a headless chicken.