Project Reality Forums

Hello,

I searched the thread with already suggested suggestions and didn't found this one in it. So here it is:

The Anti aircraft weapons depicted in this game have an Infra Red (aka passive) seeker. This means the weapon does not emit anything that could be detected by some warning device mounted on a heli or aircraft... rather, the weapon itself is relying on the heat emissions from the exhausts of the engine/s of the heli or aircraft.

The current implementation of how those weapons work in PR is utterly unrealistic and annoying for both... the pilot and the Antiaircraft kit wearer.

At the current state the antiaircraft kit does nothing more than to trigger the flares launch from the bored pilot and be a nuisance for those "Aces of the Skies" that are more annoyed than scared by the nerve the insurgent taliban had...

Now, I understand why it was implemented in BF2 this way... but, I don't understand why the similar warnings from the tanks/APCs were removed but, the ones from helis or aircraft preserved. Out of frustration of missing yet again an opportunity to fire my Stinger at a heli I always assume in the DEV team there must be an "Ace Wannabe" (take it more as a joke) who's ego will suffer a terrible blow if he would had to work in a realistic manner with the helis or planes and be punished for taking to much chances.

So... we have a pretty reasonable delay in deploying the shoulder mounted AA missile... we have just one missile per kit... we have "someone's looking at me warning receiver" on every plane or heli... now we need the antiaircraft kit wearer to be blind or see blury. Joking... Seriously... why someone would bother to take an inferior (infantry wise) kit armed with a single useless missile and some rocks (or a SMG)??

Ask yourselves, Who kills the AT kit? the tanks? Or the infantry? Why helis and planes get the unrealistic advantage of relying on a fictional gadget for its protection rather than... infantry again?

How a balance would be accieved? Well... there is no direct ballance. When a pilot goes bellow a certain altitude in a hot zone he knows what's the biggest threat: small arms, light AA and shoulder mounted or armor mounted IR seeking missiles. what he does? He does not linger. He has to go in fast, release his hell and get out of the dodge. All this while popping flares as creatively as he can.

This is what a flight simmer does in games like Lock On, Falcon, DCS Black Shark so why not doing it here too? Is not like the current model works... cause you have to be pretty stupid while playing with a plane or heli not to pop flares imediatelly after the warning and retreat, then go back again. In one Muthrah City round we had a guy killing helis with the Heavy AT with more success than the AA guys, funny but...

So... why not put more flares on planes and helis... make them release less at once (two is more common) and let the "game" return where it belongs... to the minds of the two players. Make the AA missiles less effective after a certain range/altitude.

And.. eventually put a AA/AT missile in a Assault kit so the two guys would stay together .

regards,
zaelu.

Flares themselves are too effectve, MANPADS are a complete joke - can't realistically engage any air units.

Other AA pieces can do it AFAIK because of a bug.

Well, I've shoot a huey(?) on Archer. One shot=8 kills

And a LB on Korengal with two shoots, first time I missed The trick is when you have locked on the chopper fire immidietly!

IMO it's fine as it is.

P.S. Why the frack gif don't work?

zaelu wrote:Hello,

I searched the thread with already suggested suggestions and didn't found this one in it. So here it is:

The Anti aircraft weapons depicted in this game have an Infra Red (aka passive) seeker. This means the weapon does not emit anything that could be detected by some warning device mounted on a heli or aircraft... rather, the weapon itself is relying on the heat emissions from the exhausts of the engine/s of the heli or aircraft.

The current implementation of how those weapons work in PR is utterly unrealistic and annoying for both... the pilot and the Antiaircraft kit wearer.

At the current state the antiaircraft kit does nothing more than to trigger the flares launch from the bored pilot and be a nuisance for those "Aces of the Skies" that are more annoyed than scared by the nerve the insurgent taliban had...

Now, I understand why it was implemented in BF2 this way... but, I don't understand why the similar warnings from the tanks/APCs were removed but, the ones from helis or aircraft preserved. Out of frustration of missing yet again an opportunity to fire my Stinger at a heli I always assume in the DEV team there must be an "Ace Wannabe" (take it more as a joke) who's ego will suffer a terrible blow if he would had to work in a realistic manner with the helis or planes and be punished for taking to much chances.

So... we have a pretty reasonable delay in deploying the shoulder mounted AA missile... we have just one missile per kit... we have "someone's looking at me warning receiver" on every plane or heli... now we need the antiaircraft kit wearer to be blind or see blury. Joking... Seriously... why someone would bother to take an inferior (infantry wise) kit armed with a single useless missile and some rocks (or a SMG)??

Ask yourselves, Who kills the AT kit? the tanks? Or the infantry? Why helis and planes get the unrealistic advantage of relying on a fictional gadget for its protection rather than... infantry again?

How a balance would be accieved? Well... there is no direct ballance. When a pilot goes bellow a certain altitude in a hot zone he knows what's the biggest threat: small arms, light AA and shoulder mounted or armor mounted IR seeking missiles. what he does? He does not linger. He has to go in fast, release his hell and get out of the dodge. All this while popping flares as creatively as he can.

This is what a flight simmer does in games like Lock On, Falcon, DCS Black Shark so why not doing it here too? Is not like the current model works... cause you have to be pretty stupid while playing with a plane or heli not to pop flares imediatelly after the warning and retreat, then go back again. In one Muthrah City round we had a guy killing helis with the Heavy AT with more success than the AA guys, funny but...

So... why not put more flares on planes and helis... make them release less at once (two is more common) and let the "game" return where it belongs... to the minds of the two players. Make the AA missiles less effective after a certain range/altitude.

And.. eventually put a AA/AT missile in a Assault kit so the two guys would stay together .

regards,
zaelu.

What you need to understand is several things:

1. The BF2 engine is no flight simulator, and current aircraft models are woefully inaccurate to the capabilities of modern aircraft.

2. Pilots often, if not always, operate with Wingman in comparable aircraft and have the ability to easily turn their head to look for telltale missile signs (long white plume of exhaust), this fact is not replicated in PR as there is only 1 fighter and 1 bomber on any air map, and there is no TrackIR or equivalent support in BF2.

3. The array of countermeasures at a pilots disposal are much more than in PR, where the only countermeasure is flares.

4. Anti Radiation Missiles in PR still do not exist making the seeking and destroying of enemy anti aircraft defenses by aircraft very difficult.

5. Many modern aircraft have a missile detection radar, which seeks out incoming missiles and warns the pilot.

4. Anti Radiation Missiles in PR still do not exist making the seeking and destroying of enemy anti aircraft defenses by aircraft very difficult.

5. Many modern aircraft have a missile detection radar, which seeks out incoming missiles and warns the pilot.

in PR missiles are passive(IR), they do not radiate
detection radar spots fired missiles, not aiming man with manpad

array of countermeasures is used against passive-active, active missiles, only thing you could against IR flares, maneuvers, constructive decisions to reduce exhaust gases temperature

DankE_SPB wrote:in PR missiles are passive(IR), they do not radiate

Yes, but the AA Vehicles with their big spinning radar on the top do.

detection radar spots fired missiles, not aiming man with manpad

If you've noticed, the lock on warning doesn't happen in a jet for a half a second or so. You have time to fire your missile before the pilot knows you're on to him.

array of countermeasures is used against passive-active, active missiles, only thing you could against IR flares, maneuvers, constructive decisions to reduce exhaust gases temperature

And of course, your eyes and the eyes of your wingman to warn you when to drop flares and break, this is absent from PR as the BF2 engine cannot replicate the turning of your head without taking your hands off the controls (Or the ministick on X52s, but that's not near as easy to use as a mouse) and lack of a comparable aircraft for a wingman.

Yes, but the AA Vehicles with their big spinning radar on the top do.

show me working radar on vehicles pls(ingame i mean)
anyway SA-9 GASKIN / 9K31 Strela-1

each battery is fitted with FLAT BOX A passive radar detection antenna....

when lock acquired it doesnt mean I immediately shoot, right

DankE_SPB wrote:show me working radar on vehicles pls(ingame i mean)
anyway SA-9 GASKIN / 9K31 Strela-1


when lock acquired it doesnt mean I immediately shoot, right

The Chinese AAV, the Stormer AAV, the Tunguska, though the Tunguska is only in Training Mode now. Or do you mean radar that actually has an effect?

As for shooting when you lock, I'm unsure as to whether or not the BF2 engine can handle only giving the alert when the missile has been fired.

@Tirak

1. I am aware BF2 is not a simulator and I suppose the PR DEV team knew that but, they still tried their best in pushing BF2 envelope towards "realistic". A flight sim stands out of the "Arcade-like" games primarely not by the way it approaches the IR AA missiles dilema but by implementing realistic flight models, realistic avionics, realistic damage models, realistic weapon models (primarely those onboard the aircraft).

2. Although you have a point here, it must be said that no pilot in the world enters a hot zone hoping he will see a tale-tail sign of a missile... it is simply suicide. A good reason for that is this: every IR missile operator would be required to read at least once the instructions for succesfully launch a IR missile and any manual says that the best angle to launch a IR missile is from behind of that plane... i.e. where is hot and has no eyes, in fewer words... let it pass, then fire. Also at this No2... RM depicts engagements in very tight/close quarters for a helo (I still believe planes have no place in this game/Mod) and the usual maneuvers made at the edge of engagement zone just to establish "where the enemy fangs might be" are out of discussion... in RM and BF2 you are in the bag, only thing you can do (as I said above) is enter fast, exit faster and be creative at popping flares.

3. Against IR missiles, besides flares, there is only one single counter measure AFAIK available only for SU-25T plane... that is the rear facing IR Jammer. For a slow moving/hovering heli there is no other protection than infantry cleaning the area. this is why the AA kit is so weakly equipted and easy to eliminate in a good working team right?


4. As I said, the engagement zone depicted in this MOD is too small for radar guided missiles and their respective counter measures. The fact that the game has only IR missiles in it is OK. It should bbe mentioned that the "Shilka type" AAA armor should have radar guided cannons though . A funny thing about this is the fact that the Quad AAA Cannons in PR have no aiming device at all.

5. So they say . Usualy is a pasive radar guided homing missile detector which uses the same RWR only interprets the radar signal as coming from an missile gone active (like AIM120).
For pasive misile such a divice is more advertising . A low flying aircraft/heli pilot would prefer going as invisible as posible by turning off such a "self illuminating" device than rely on it for a short "blip" before... Heaven . A missile bellow 1000m would take a little above one second to meet its target. Considering in RM (BF2) flying takes bellow 300 metters (I know is a relative number due to game limitations) such device would be useless.

@ sakils2

I shoot down helos too but, only careless ones. Also, the warning goes on before you have the lock so the pilot can launch his flares well before you have the window to fire. Give the fact you always are hidden behind obstacles (you are not Rambo as AA kit ) your window of opportunity is almost null. I take AA kit only out of dispair when helis start rule the map.

i say let it as it is right now.

How much more firepower you all will give the ground forces against air units?

Its hard enough to stay in air and do your job.

And now the inf want a hardcore manpad without even warn the pilot when looked on?

Guys when was your last time in a jet or chopper? I think its a while ago!

We take kashan 32 out of the mapcycle. The choppers were not effective any more. Since sky is blue, you can be seen right after start...

Or you fly so high that only lasermarks can be attacked.

Give the jets and choppers there power back.

my 2 cents

just a delay between the lock and alert like on jets would be better IMO

Yeah lets nerf the piss out of the choppers while making AA insanely powerful...

Guys... is not like you make it imposible for helis to fly and do the job.

The idea would be to give more flares to the helis and make them releaseble at will but in lateral and in pairs like most helis do in real life. This would mean the pilot should pop flares while in a presumably hot area and when flares are about to be depletead get out of there. Now we have helis that stay afloat minding their own bussiness cause no one takes the AA kit seriously.

This is pilots job in real life... and if he forgets about it he can die. Is pitty that some (maybe) dedicated pilots start crying about the proposal of getting them into realistic line of the game. .

Guys when was your last time in a jet or chopper? I think its a while ago!

I could ask you when was your last time to pick up an AA kit.

I never had the chance to play with an attack heli besides training maps and you can pretty much imagine who is to blame here . And be sure I played PR for a while by now.

zaelu wrote:Guys... is not like you make it imposible for helis to fly and do the job.

The idea would be to give more flares to the helis and make them releaseble at will but in lateral and in pairs like most helis do in real life. This would mean the pilot should pop flares while in a presumably hot area and when flares are about to be depletead get out of there. Now we have helis that stay afloat minding their own bussiness cause no one takes the AA kit seriously.

This is pilots job in real life... and if he forgets about it he can die. Is pitty that some (maybe) dedicated pilots start crying about the proposal of getting them into realistic line of the game. .



I could ask you when was your last time to pick up an AA kit.

I never had the chance to play with an attack heli besides training maps and you can pretty much imagine who is to blame here . And be sure I played PR for a while by now.

You're not supposed to be able to take out jets with MANPADS.

zaelu.

Devs stress the idea of reality but balance. Thats pretty much a side motto.

Keep this in mind. I find the half a second rule after locking on to be unfair for aircraft, but iv learned to live with it.

Thing is zaelu that in a game like lock on, you can live with not hearing a tone and then dodging just by situational awareness and by maneuvering the aircraft. But both of these are not possible in PR.

The limits are too much.

You have only 1-2 seconds before the missile reaches its target after fired.

How the hell do you want a pilot to work with that unless there is something to balance that out?

Leave it as it is.



And iv worked the AA pads and hand helds, and im being honest here and saying you guys are not using it correctly.

I can shoot down an aircraft or hit it at least 80% of the time.

Perhaps training with it would be a good idea or experimenting with shooting at different times.

In short zaelu, i do feel like the devs might particularly do something to the AA but nothing significant or anything to ur liking. So either than that, i dont figure much else will be done to this system. Too many other greater things need to be done.

Without properly going into how incredibly nefred helicopters and such already are:


1) Manpads are actually ineffective weapons against anything but low and slow aircraft and can be reasonably easily evaded depending on the missile type.

2) Actually, most aircraft can detect IR launches and all sorts so it is realistic.

For example the apache HIDAS system (british apaches, but others use it aswell and most system will be somewhat similar).

The suite of sensors and countermeasures is 'mixed and matched' to provide optimal defence against specific threats: radar-guided anti-aircraft artillery; radar- or laser-guided SAMs; or shoulder-launched heat-seeking SAMs

http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SelexSAS_UK/pdf_datasheet/ew/HIDAS_.pdf

And according to the book "Apache" written by a pilot/gunner it can detect same launchers,m the direction from which it comes, deploys countermeasures automatically and tells the pilot the best way to evade.

3) Ranges in PR are so short remove warning and you might aswell remove aircraft.

4) Helicopters in PR cannot properly engage ground targets, so its unfair to overpower he ground targets even more.

5) Have you actually flown in Lock on etc? Have you actually flown in PR at all? My guess is no although feel free to correct me.

I sometimes go on training servers for the lulz, don´t bother with aircraft its pointless, I just go on mec, get an AA (this is 10 mec vs 35-40 US by the way) and rape everything that moves in the air, I don´t know how you can say its ineffective atm, cos its incredibly easy to kill an aircraft.

In fact I think manpads can even be outrun by most jets and a few maneuvers.

Is pitty that some (maybe) dedicated pilots start crying about the proposal of getting them into realistic line of the game.

If you want realism.

1) All ground vehicles have lasers on them automatically.

2) They have double the range of everything but AA.

Etc

I suggest you spend a good amount of time flying in normal servers in PR and see if you change your mind.


The most realistic AA/jet relation I have seen is in our little mod experiments where both jets and aa will have radar (not uav style) and have to carefully hunt each other, both as deadly as each other etc.