Project Reality Forums

I was brought to project reality by my cousin, who found it on ModDB. We both have a long history of FPS gaming, and we're generally pretty good players, so, the promise of more realism was appealing.

This is the ultimate mod, so far, but a few small issues stick out.

1) CQB. The close quarters portion of the game seems lacking. Firing from the hip is much more difficult than it is in real life. I'm not sure how to improve this without some kind of cross-hair, but it should be looked into. It is exceedingly easy for someone to run into a room while someone is guarding the door, jook behind or beside them, and start spraying bullets, and actually meet with some modicum of success based on the random "spray" of bullets the defender would likely issue... I dunno, maybe I'm just not practiced enough in PR yet to be able to adequately defend a doorway......

In short, I've played a ton of FPS games, and the close-quarters portion of PR seems a bit lacking, even when compared against America's Army, which also doesn't have a crosshair from the hip.

2) Map size vs. Number of Vehicles... More troop transports, or faster spawning troop transports could greatly help matches from devolving into one-sided massacres so easily. Not every map has this problem, so I understand that finding a solid solution is a bit tricky, but, Operation Barracuda comes to mind. The majority of the Chinese army on that map will be walking great distances, especially if the other team is good enough to take out their rally points and firebases quickly. This is so frustrating that I've often had squad mates, and I myself have, on a few occasions, simply disconnected after being killed and finding that my spawn had been overrun and I didn't really have the 10 minutes to waste getting back to the front line. I've seen others complain about this, as well.

3) The location of the player is not very evident on the map. A small directional indicator that we could see turning a bit as we moved on our dot would be plenty. I understand that "realism" would not have me knowing my precise geo-aligned heading, but, seeing as how I don't have a mini-map at all times on foot (this is a good thing), it would be nice to have a stronger indicator of which of the little green dots I am... the original "field of view" indicator may have been heavy-handed, but some indication would help squad cohesion a bit and I think actually be "more" realistic than just a compass. Real life doesn't have lag, respawning, and various other video-game induced challenges that throw off a person from knowing his approximate location.

4) Directional hit indicator... I don't understand really why this was removed. Does not one at least know the approximate 90 degree angle from which a bullet hit him once he is shot? In real life, bullet-holes are very telling, even on objects examined well after bullet impact. If I hear bullets spraying the next room over, I can walk in and, with a glance, determine through which window/opening they came, and thus derive the approximate location of my enemy. I don't expect project reality to be able to allow this kind of quick sleuth-work, but, I would think that a bullet that literally hit my body armor or went through my leg would at least give away something about the location of my enemy beyond "he can see me from somewhere in a 360 circle."

Anyway, I love this game. It has replaced all of my other FPS games, so please don't take these few suggestions as strong criticisms of the game. I gave it a shining review on my blog, which gets about 100 visitors per day (http://www.judgex.com/), and, I very rarely give fully positive reviews of anything (digg it if you like it, btw, the more people that see it the more people that might try PR with us).

I understand there are reasons NOT to do any of the things I've suggested, but, in trying to be "too" realistic, it's very possible to go beyond the point of realism where the game is no longer enjoyable because the interface, display, and sound mechanisms that we interface with are less than optimal...

JKJudgeX wrote:I was brought to project reality by my cousin, who found it on ModDB. We both have a long history of FPS gaming, and we're generally pretty good players, so, the promise of more realism was appealing.

This is the ultimate mod, so far, but a few small issues stick out.

1) CQB. The close quarters portion of the game seems lacking. Firing from the hip is much more difficult than it is in real life. I'm not sure how to improve this without some kind of cross-hair, but it should be looked into. It is exceedingly easy for someone to run into a room while someone is guarding the door, jook behind or beside them, and start spraying bullets, and actually meet with some modicum of success based on the random "spray" of bullets the defender would likely issue... I dunno, maybe I'm just not practiced enough in PR yet to be able to adequately defend a doorway......

In short, I've played a ton of FPS games, and the close-quarters portion of PR seems a bit lacking, even when compared against America's Army, which also doesn't have a crosshair from the hip.

2) Map size vs. Number of Vehicles... More troop transports, or faster spawning troop transports could greatly help matches from devolving into one-sided massacres so easily. Not every map has this problem, so I understand that finding a solid solution is a bit tricky, but, Operation Barracuda comes to mind. The majority of the Chinese army on that map will be walking great distances, especially if the other team is good enough to take out their rally points and firebases quickly. This is so frustrating that I've often had squad mates, and I myself have, on a few occasions, simply disconnected after being killed and finding that my spawn had been overrun and I didn't really have the 10 minutes to waste getting back to the front line. I've seen others complain about this, as well.

3) The location of the player is not very evident on the map. A small directional indicator that we could see turning a bit as we moved on our dot would be plenty. I understand that "realism" would not have me knowing my precise geo-aligned heading, but, seeing as how I don't have a mini-map at all times on foot (this is a good thing), it would be nice to have a stronger indicator of which of the little green dots I am... the original "field of view" indicator may have been heavy-handed, but some indication would help squad cohesion a bit and I think actually be "more" realistic than just a compass. Real life doesn't have lag, respawning, and various other video-game induced challenges that throw off a person from knowing his approximate location.

4) Directional hit indicator... I don't understand really why this was removed. Does not one at least know the approximate 90 degree angle from which a bullet hit him once he is shot? In real life, bullet-holes are very telling, even on objects examined well after bullet impact. If I hear bullets spraying the next room over, I can walk in and, with a glance, determine through which window/opening they came, and thus derive the approximate location of my enemy. I don't expect project reality to be able to allow this kind of quick sleuth-work, but, I would think that a bullet that literally hit my body armor or went through my leg would at least give away something about the location of my enemy beyond "he can see me from somewhere in a 360 circle."

Anyway, I love this game. It has replaced all of my other FPS games, so please don't take these few suggestions as strong criticisms of the game. I gave it a shining review on my blog, which gets about 100 visitors per day (http://www.judgex.com/), and, I very rarely give fully positive reviews of anything (digg it if you like it, btw, the more people that see it the more people that might try PR with us).

I understand there are reasons NOT to do any of the things I've suggested, but, in trying to be "too" realistic, it's very possible to go beyond the point of realism where the game is no longer enjoyable because the interface, display, and sound mechanisms that we interface with are less than optimal...

In terms of the CQB aspect of it i agree there should be a CQB speacalist in the game this would be handy on the insurgents map, the mp 5 the MEC have for crewman is very good. However the veichles im not to sure about due to this would give ppl the option of runnin and gunin in veichles solo and generally wasting them and with tickets being lost due to veichles bein lost this wouldnt be a good idea because the more potential veichles bein lost the more tickets.

my answers in bold

JKJudgeX wrote:I was brought to project reality by my cousin, who found it on ModDB. We both have a long history of FPS gaming, and we're generally pretty good players, so, the promise of more realism was appealing.

This is the ultimate mod, so far, but a few small issues stick out.

1) CQB. The close quarters portion of the game seems lacking. Firing from the hip is much more difficult than it is in real life. I'm not sure how to improve this without some kind of cross-hair, but it should be looked into. It is exceedingly easy for someone to run into a room while someone is guarding the door, jook behind or beside them, and start spraying bullets, and actually meet with some modicum of success based on the random "spray" of bullets the defender would likely issue... I dunno, maybe I'm just not practiced enough in PR yet to be able to adequately defend a doorway......

it takes practice, but the bullets still hit in about the same place.
if you practice with it you will see it.

In short, I've played a ton of FPS games, and the close-quarters portion of PR seems a bit lacking, even when compared against America's Army, which also doesn't have a crosshair from the hip.

2) Map size vs. Number of Vehicles... More troop transports, or faster spawning troop transports could greatly help matches from devolving into one-sided massacres so easily. Not every map has this problem, so I understand that finding a solid solution is a bit tricky, but, Operation Barracuda comes to mind. The majority of the Chinese army on that map will be walking great distances, especially if the other team is good enough to take out their rally points and firebases quickly. This is so frustrating that I've often had squad mates, and I myself have, on a few occasions, simply disconnected after being killed and finding that my spawn had been overrun and I didn't really have the 10 minutes to waste getting back to the front line. I've seen others complain about this, as well.

the troop transports are low to force tw and not make as many lone wolfs, with a fewer transports, you cant waist them.. also, transport vheicals have 5 minute spawns, not verry long.

3) The location of the player is not very evident on the map. A small directional indicator that we could see turning a bit as we moved on our dot would be plenty. I understand that "realism" would not have me knowing my precise geo-aligned heading, but, seeing as how I don't have a mini-map at all times on foot (this is a good thing), it would be nice to have a stronger indicator of which of the little green dots I am... the original "field of view" indicator may have been heavy-handed, but some indication would help squad cohesion a bit and I think actually be "more" realistic than just a compass. Real life doesn't have lag, respawning, and various other video-game induced challenges that throw off a person from knowing his approximate location.

press n while in the map and it zooms in on you, and keep that location with where you are. also, the arrows were removed becuase in rl you dont know where every solder is facing.
just know your approx area and follow yourself as you learn the map.

4) Directional hit indicator... I don't understand really why this was removed. Does not one at least know the approximate 90 degree angle from which a bullet hit him once he is shot? In real life, bullet-holes are very telling, even on objects examined well after bullet impact. If I hear bullets spraying the next room over, I can walk in and, with a glance, determine through which window/opening they came, and thus derive the approximate location of my enemy. I don't expect project reality to be able to allow this kind of quick sleuth-work, but, I would think that a bullet that literally hit my body armor or went through my leg would at least give away something about the location of my enemy beyond "he can see me from somewhere in a 360 circle."

the hit indicator was not technacly removed, its still there, its that red circle=P or i think it is...
also, the hit suppreser affect tells you that your being shot at, just run for cover, and if the bullet hits to close you may not know the exact way it came from.

also, if you walk into a room that was shot into, you might not know what holes are new and old

Anyway, I love this game. It has replaced all of my other FPS games, so please don't take these few suggestions as strong criticisms of the game. I gave it a shining review on my blog, which gets about 100 visitors per day (http://www.judgex.com/), and, I very rarely give fully positive reviews of anything (digg it if you like it, btw, the more people that see it the more people that might try PR with us).

I understand there are reasons NOT to do any of the things I've suggested, but, in trying to be "too" realistic, it's very possible to go beyond the point of realism where the game is no longer enjoyable because the interface, display, and sound mechanisms that we interface with are less than optimal...

i see what you mean, and also, there are bullet holes in the game, its just only on hjigh graphics or somethen..
theres alot of stuff everyone wants and is just not possible, like fastropes.. whitch i am happy you dident suggest!

hey, welcome to the forum and game, i just pesonlly feel that not all of this will fit well, it is a good game, a good mod, but with all the players on it now.... its just hard.. once alot of the new ppl leave or become players of the game, you will see a major increases of tw

dominator200 wrote:In terms of the CQB aspect of it i agree there should be a CQB speacalist in the game this would be handy on the insurgents map, the mp 5 the MEC have for crewman is very good. However the veichles im not to sure about due to this would give ppl the option of runnin and gunin in veichles solo and generally wasting them and with tickets being lost due to veichles bein lost this wouldnt be a good idea because the more potential veichles bein lost the more tickets.

Well, I don't know if it needs to be a specialist. I actually have an AK-47 of my own, and have on several occasions fired AR-15's and even an AK-74... firing at someone coming through a door from the hip really should not ever be a problem as it is in PR.

The more vehicles costing more tickets, I hadn't really thought of that, but, maybe making the value of the vehicles slightly decreased as the spawn rate is brought up could help solve that.

As far as people running and gunning solo in a vehicle... as it is now, this problem is really, really bad. The guy that does this can lose the game for his whole team, even if a couple of squads are working together really well. With more vehicles, there's room to accommodate an extra jerk or two without your team losing outright... but, yeah... maybe more vehicles isn't the solution for this...

Maybe more spawn points, somehow? Or, the ability to spawn on another team's spawn location?

I dunno.

also, 9 squads in pr, i dont know what the max is in vinnila, but pr has 9 squads, not 7, like in your articel=P

the cheical thing in my mind is
if there are more, you lose tickets, if there are less, your walking..


truthfully, ive had so many battles where you win or lose by 2 tickets i would rather walk then lose the car

4) Directional hit indicator... I don't understand really why this was removed. Does not one at least know the approximate 90 degree angle from which a bullet hit him once he is shot? In real life, bullet-holes are very telling, even on objects examined well after bullet impact. If I hear bullets spraying the next room over, I can walk in and, with a glance, determine through which window/opening they came, and thus derive the approximate location of my enemy. I don't expect project reality to be able to allow this kind of quick sleuth-work, but, I would think that a bullet that literally hit my body armor or went through my leg would at least give away something about the location of my enemy beyond "he can see me from somewhere in a 360 circle."

I think that generally if you get shot, the point is you don't know where exactly it is, because you just got a high velocity piece of metal go through your body, which is a shock, and therefore, you don't know what is happening.

Nice review though, with the CQB stuff, practice, I have been playing since 0.4 and have gotten used to aiming without cross-hairs throughout the versions

Scot wrote:I think that generally if you get shot, the point is you don't know where exactly it is, because you just got a high velocity piece of metal go through your body, which is a shock, and therefore, you don't know what is happening.

Nice review though, with the CQB stuff, practice, I have been playing since 0.4 and have gotten used to aiming without cross-hairs throughout the versions

I suppose that sometimes if you are shot you really wouldn't know where it was coming from, but, I think the clear majority of shots that you survive from and are not critically wounded, you would, after feeling the direction of impact, understanding that you had a wound, and after recuperating from it, be able to, having heard it, as well, have a general idea as to where the shot came from.

Example, you are knicked in the leg from behind, and a nice little chunk of skin and fat is blown out... as soon as you've been hit, you hear the bullet crack off from behind you, so, you're thinking "holy ****, I've been shot in me back"... so you're going to get behind something, and then, as you're collecting your senses, piece together at LEAST the cardinal direction from which you've been shot. Now, I understand totally if you get "critically wounded" you might be like "omg omg omg omg" and not really be able to logically think, but, the difference between a good soldier and a bad one is that the good soldier keeps his cool and thinks... the "hit direction indicator" should just be a representation of my dude being a good soldier when his face isn't blown off.



The CQB thing, yeah, I'm not so sure that crosshairs are the correct answer, myself... I just think it could use a little work, and I'm not 100% sure how to make it better... but it is definitely the hardest game I know of to shoot from the hip in. I generally kill anywhere from 3-12 people in a given match (unless my game is just horribly off), which is more than most of the people that I see in the score listing come end-game, so I'm not a really bad player... and in Battlefield 2, my favorite weapon is the engineer shotgun, with which I've wiped out entire squads on many, many occasions... but, in Project Reality, if someone gets near me, it becomes a complete tossup... is my spray going to be luckier than his spray? But like I said, a cross-hair would probably be very "unrealistic"... but there probably is a solution somewhere in the fine mechanics of how the bullet inaccuracy works.

For the CQB, you just have to not move. The deviation is reset if you move at all, so if you sit perfectly still (crouching, preferably), you should come off on top.

JKJudgeX wrote: Example, you are knicked in the leg from behind, and a nice little chunk of skin and fat is blown out... as soon as you've been hit, you hear the bullet crack off from behind you, so, you're thinking "holy ****, I've been shot in me back"... so you're going to get behind something, and then, as you're collecting your senses, piece together at LEAST the cardinal direction from which you've been shot. Now, I understand totally if you get "critically wounded" you might be like "omg omg omg omg" and not really be able to logically think, but, the difference between a good soldier and a bad one is that the good soldier keeps his cool and thinks... the "hit direction indicator" should just be a representation of my dude being a good soldier when his face isn't blown off.

Well, the only thing you've mentionned that might give you a sense of knowing where the shot came from was the hearing of the crack of the gun. This is ingame already, meaning you can at least tell where you're being shot from. However, you don't have a sense of where you were shot from simply because you get hit. You'll know where you got hit on your body, yes, but you wouldn't know where from.

JKJudgeX wrote:The CQB thing, yeah, I'm not so sure that crosshairs are the correct answer, myself... I just think it could use a little work, and I'm not 100% sure how to make it better... but it is definitely the hardest game I know of to shoot from the hip in. I generally kill anywhere from 3-12 people in a given match (unless my game is just horribly off), which is more than most of the people that I see in the score listing come end-game, so I'm not a really bad player... and in Battlefield 2, my favorite weapon is the engineer shotgun, with which I've wiped out entire squads on many, many occasions... but, in Project Reality, if someone gets near me, it becomes a complete tossup... is my spray going to be luckier than his spray? But like I said, a cross-hair would probably be very "unrealistic"... but there probably is a solution somewhere in the fine mechanics of how the bullet inaccuracy works.

Its not the lack of crosshairs thats the problem, hell there are plenty of games without crosshairs and they are the only ones i play (Cod4 hardcore for example). But i still know where my bullets should (read should in a game sense) be going as eventually u get a feel for where round abouts the 'centre' is. The problem is PRs deviation system, which while much improved in 0.85, is still not quite perfect. But the devs are constantly workin and perfecting this.
The reason why it is the way it is, is to reflect weapon sway and battlefield stress led inaccuracy (something the bf2 engine cant accurately replicate). I have high hopes by 0.9 it wont be nearly so random (the m16/m4 burst is a particular victim of this in my eyes)

McLuv wrote:Well, the only thing you've mentionned that might give you a sense of knowing where the shot came from was the hearing of the crack of the gun. This is ingame already, meaning you can at least tell where you're being shot from. However, you don't have a sense of where you were shot from simply because you get hit. You'll know where you got hit on your body, yes, but you wouldn't know where from.

Actually, I left the rest for you to determine, but, I can go into further detail.

1) Bullets have an entry and exit wound. The exit wound is always larger.

2) Rifle rounds travel at such velocity that there is a higher chance that the bullet would continue out of your body. This does not happen in BF2, but in real life, it would be highly obvious that what just penetrated you had then proceeded, say, into the door you were about to walk through, or down into the street at a 45 degree angle from your leg, indicating that the shooter is high above you.

3) The sound in game is some of the best I've ever heard in a video game. However, a) the doppler effect is not accurately preserved, b) the 3D sound is not as accurate and easily discernible as real sound, c) concussive effects are impossible to mimic, since you can't really "feel" the sound accurately coming out of your computer, d) there's virtually no way to have your sound loud enough to mimic the real volume of gunfire in a firefight without blowing out your speakers and making the game completely intolerable to actually sit and play... firing an AK-47 or AR-15 with no ear protection rings your ears, being fired at, even from considerable distance, is really loud, too, as you're on the business end of the barrel. Some vietnam veterans know the signature sound of an AK bolt slapping back instantly upon hearing it, and I would wager that they could lay effective suppressing fire on Charlie without even having seen him and without having been hit.

4) Impact... bullets actually "hit", especially if you have armor on, and the force can be felt from a certain direction. Watch this test of 9mm, which is weak compared to AK or M-16. People compare being shot while wearing armor to having been hit with a baseball bat, or punched by a strong guy. Whether it penetrates you or not, you're going to, at the VERY minimum, even if you're deaf, know whether you were shot from in front, beside, or behind, just based on where it felt like you got punched or stabbed from, and possibly even knocked a little off balance (though movie depictions of people being blown away are completely erroneous)


There are tons more reasons why you'd know where you were being shot from once hit non-lethally. I honestly think you'd have a better idea of where bullets are coming from even when they don't hit you than you presently do in BF or PR, but I don't really know an elegant way of doing that without making it way too obvious where you're being shot from.

I should be able to take a hit, and report to my squad "I got shot in the back" when it didn't kill me... or "he's somewhere right of us", without having to rely on sound alone...

Just saying, if you want to be "realistic"... at least in my opinion.

i usually find myself coming out top in CQBs, u just got to keep practicing on knowing where to aim and when to shoot. if u really want to work on it, go into training Kashan (when the people aren't spamming like h*** with the jets and helis). i've taken out a person on the ground when i just came out walking, popped him off and killed the guy next to him while still having enough amo to kill the medic running up. in training, a MEC guy emptied a whole magazine trying to kill me, he only shot me once and i came to a complete stop and turned around, saw him hopping, and without aiming picked him off (though i had to use my whole magazine to kill him but i still did it). Like i said before, just take more time and you'll get better at it (oh and i LOVE using the shotgun when I'm insurgent, it is just kinda hard sometimes to get a kill from the hip but i usually pick that because i can pick those pesky infidels easily when they hear *boom, AHHHHH! boom auuuggghhhahhhhh*

Ever tried hip-shoot IRL,its not as easy as you may think.
NOTE:Shoot with airsoft,paintball,air-rifle etc. If you use higher calibered weapons,it may hurt in finger.

You have some good points about CQB combat JkJudge but you must be joking with your entry and exit wounds theory. Do you think that if a bullet penetrates your leg IRL you would instantly look down and start examining entry and exit points? No you would not. You would be in shock and your only thought would be to find cover. IRL you would probably be much more useless as a soldier than what is reflected ingame. Besides, it is really easy to hear where the bullets are coming from if you are using a 3dpositional audiocard.

IRL you can understand were the shot came from because you have the feeling of impact.
So removal of hit indicators is somehow unrealistic.

BUT we have to admit that in every shooter with hit indicators after a hit the first thing which come in mind is turn to the direction showned by the indicator.
And that's not realistic.
IRL first thought is find a cover fast and look for the enemy after.

So we have something unrealistic but it helps realistic gameplay.

Adetter wrote:Ever tried hip-shoot IRL,its not as easy as you may think.
NOTE:Shoot with airsoft,paintball,air-rifle etc. If you use higher calibered weapons,it may hurt in finger.

never ever base your idea of shooting a proper gun on your experience with airsoft/paintball replica. it just doesn't compare

Adetter wrote:Ever tried hip-shoot IRL,its not as easy as you may think.
NOTE:Shoot with airsoft,paintball,air-rifle etc. If you use higher calibered weapons,it may hurt in finger.

Adetter wrote:Ever tried hip-shoot IRL,its not as easy as you may think.
NOTE:Shoot with airsoft,paintball,air-rifle etc. If you use higher calibered weapons,it may hurt in finger.

Yeah, man, I've done hip shooting a lot with my real AK-47, my 12 gauge mossberg, my friend's AR-15, my .45 Taurus, my 9mm, etc...

It's not that difficult, especially to hit a man-sized target under 30 yards... you can "feel" where you are pointing relatively easily.

A couple vids to show you what can be done:
How to learn about the Armalite AR-10 | Wonder How To (skip to the last 1/5th of the video for full auto from the hip at combat range)
YouTube - THE RIFLEMAN - Rifle Video Demonstration lol, but, not entirely unrealistic.


Another thing I didn't really mention is that the recoil model seems a bit too loose. I don't care if my dudes are in combat, etc, the cone of fire from the weapons in this game from AR to AK are way, wayyy too loose. This has dreadful impact at medium to close range, bewildering the player, but isn't quite as surprising at long range... I think this is linked to the from the hip problem.

Also, bringing the weapon up to your eye from the carry position takes a bit too long. Shouldering a weapon takes like, no time whatsoever.




As far as being shot, no, the first thing you're going to do is glance in the direction of danger to get some idea of where might be safe to hide. A guy comes into a room behind you and shoots you, you aren't going to go "oh god!" and blindly hide behind the couch still in his line of sight. You're going to at least glance up to see where the shot came from before making your escape move. It's basic animal instinct to find the source of a threat before trying to move away from it.

It doesn't make for more realistic gameplay. It makes for "WHERE IS THAT COMING FROM?!?!?!!! OMG I QUIT" gameplay, as people get frustrated with the stupidity of being shot at and not even being able to determine whether the shot came from the north or east... things you would instantly know in real life, even when you AREN'T hit... it's not that big of a stretch for an FPS to put an indicator when you are non-lethally shot that says "You were hit by a bullet from the right". As a matter of fact, I think it's a wise FPS innovation that makes them MORE realistic.

In Project Reality, No, we wouldn't immediately turn and run towards what shot us. The realism in the game doesn't come from REDUCING the soldier's tactical awareness by dumbing down his senses to where he can't even figure out where he's being attacked from. We wouldn't run at him because he'd SHOOT US AGAIN, plus, we're partially blind from being shot up.

No, I wasn't saying you're going to examine your wound, I was saying you'd likely be able to feel from which direction you were wounded, provided it didn't kill you or throw you into shock.

I'm not saying that we should automatically see who shot us, I'm just saying that the little "you got shot from the right" thing isn't unjustified. There's even a game I've played that puts a little "white" sound indicator when you're not hit but someone fires (I think it was Rainbow Six: Vegas). Neither of these struck me as unrealistic, they are tools implemented to overcome the unrealistic disconnect between player and avatar.

It's completely unjustified.

When you get shot, your priority is no longer to return fire. Your priorities are:

a) To inform your team that you're wounded
b) To ensure you're not wounded further

When a round impacts into your body armour, your response should not be to look for a red hit indicator to see where the shot came from, to turn to that heading and then light 'em up. Your response should be to hit the deck if you're near cover or leg it to the nearest cover if you're not. If you're badly hit, your response should be to lie there clutching your wound until a medic can get to you.

Sure, 45 second's sluth work... "I was facing north, I was holding my arm across my body, the wound on my arm is a long graze running along the forearm, therefore I was shot from either the west or the east" is entirely logically possible. It's also bloody ridiculous!

If someone opens up on you without you knowing they're there - you've clearly lost the advantage and your response should be to take cover until you can reestablish situational awareness.... and you you should not be able to do that in a milisecond by looking at a red splash of colour on the screen.

You can see muzzle flashes, you can hear gunshots - you should roughly know where the enemy are likely to be. Use that to determine where to fire at.

Sorry chap, but the flashes aren't coming back.


As for the other elements:

1) Firing from the hip takes time and practice to become comfortable with. Just keep on getting used to it.
2) Vehicles... well, it's to slow things down, deliberately. Vehicles should be squad assets, not players assets. There are enough transports for each squad, not for each player
3) You should roughly know where you are at all times - making it easier to work out where you are. Just be glad that you're not forced to pull out a compass and manually plot your position on the map

'[R-DEV wrote:Masaq;1016320']It's completely unjustified.

When you get shot, your priority is no longer to return fire. Your priorities are:

a) To inform your team that you're wounded
b) To ensure you're not wounded further

When a round impacts into your body armour, your response should not be to look for a red hit indicator to see where the shot came from, to turn to that heading and then light 'em up. Your response should be to hit the deck if you're near cover or leg it to the nearest cover if you're not. If you're badly hit, your response should be to lie there clutching your wound until a medic can get to you.

Sure, 45 second's sluth work... "I was facing north, I was holding my arm across my body, the wound on my arm is a long graze running along the forearm, therefore I was shot from either the west or the east" is entirely logically possible. It's also bloody ridiculous!

If someone opens up on you without you knowing they're there - you've clearly lost the advantage and your response should be to take cover until you can reestablish situational awareness.... and you you should not be able to do that in a milisecond by looking at a red splash of colour on the screen.

You can see muzzle flashes, you can hear gunshots - you should roughly know where the enemy are likely to be. Use that to determine where to fire at.

Sorry chap, but the flashes aren't coming back.


As for the other elements:

1) Firing from the hip takes time and practice to become comfortable with. Just keep on getting used to it.
2) Vehicles... well, it's to slow things down, deliberately. Vehicles should be squad assets, not players assets. There are enough transports for each squad, not for each player
3) You should roughly know where you are at all times - making it easier to work out where you are. Just be glad that you're not forced to pull out a compass and manually plot your position on the map

Wellp, you're the boss.

However, failure to realize that the disconnect between the player and the computer screen breaks "realism" completely already, and removing the few small conveniences provided that were created in order to simulate that realism does not make a more "realistic" experience. It just makes a more annoying one. Remember, there's a lot of stuff with the BF2 engine that CANNOT be overcome... and people are still taking damage for falling 3 feet or going down stairs too fast... you've got to lend a few more concessions to patch over the failings of the engine and the fact that it's a game.

Because you have a hit indicator does not mean that your priority has become to return fire. You do that in battlefield because A) You're invincible, B) You have the ability to draw a bead instantaneously. In PR, even with an indicator, 95% of players would immediately go "I got shot from the left" on VOIP, find cover, and then begin working a counter-strategy. Without that little indicator, I'm sorry, but, people don't know where they are getting shot from and this does not improve gameplay or realism. It just frustrates people to the point that they quit.

The CQB game is weak (really weak). Many of the firearms have really bad accuracy issues, and they don't feel correct. I don't know if the devs have actually fired an AK-47 or 74 or AR-15. We've put over 1500 rounds each through those weapons (only a few through the 74, but we own the other 2, and we have pics to prove it). You can watch videos on youTube and other sites that show "realistic" groupings that can be obtained from those weapons from the hip, at range, iron sights, and in CQB scenarios.

We both feel that Project Reality does a STELLAR job at the midrange (100-200 yards) and long range (250+ yards) for the M-16 single fire mode. We both feel that PR does a relatively poor representation of all AK based rifles, making them far too inaccurate (The regular quality should be able to achieve 2 MoA @ 100 yards, and a beaten up older one 2.5-3). Also, the 3 round burst of an M-16, in reality, places a very tight grouping. As for the Chinese/UK rifles, I don't know, I've never fired them.

Bringing a firearm to your shoulder does not take as much time as it does in PR... I understand why it is done this way, to prohibit unrealistic "action shooting". However, a more "realistic" mechanism would be to greatly decrease the shouldering time, but create a small offset when the rifle is shouldered (this will still delay people from shouldering and instantly killing people at range, but still allow for a quick-shoulder-engage in CQB). This is what really happens when you shoulder a rifle, especially one with a magnified scope...you get it into position quickly, but then have to aim. You don't bring it up slowly and have your point of AIM fixed automatically. The slow shoulder time is greatly injurious to CQB, which is actually fought from the shoulder in real life. The movement speed with a shouldered, iron-sighted weapon or zero-magnification sight is also far, far too slow.

The part that sucks is that I've been playing for 2 going on 3 weeks, and, I hadn't been excited about an FPS in a while, but, now I feel the creep moving in and the problems with the game that you start to experience when you become more seasoned.

I've listed some of them here, but, looks like the answer is a flat "no, no, no, nah, huh-uh".

Saying "no" to your flag waving fans (I even did a huge blog article inviting people to play) kinda sucks, but, time will tell.

JKJudgeX wrote:Wellp, you're the boss.

However, failure to realize that the disconnect between the player and the computer screen breaks "realism" completely already, and removing the few small conveniences provided that were created in order to simulate that realism does not make a more "realistic" experience. It just makes a more annoying one. Remember, there's a lot of stuff with the BF2 engine that CANNOT be overcome... and people are still taking damage for falling 3 feet or going down stairs too fast... you've got to lend a few more concessions to patch over the failings of the engine and the fact that it's a game.

The disconnect between player and avatar is a problem. We're aware of it, and generally any gameplay changes are considered along these lines. Things like removing the minimap for example - took a long time to be considered and then enacted. We don't blindly come up with new ideas and implement them without thinking about it, believe me!

JKJudgeX wrote:
Because you have a hit indicator does not mean that your priority has become to return fire. You do that in battlefield because A) You're invincible, B) You have the ability to draw a bead instantaneously. In PR, even with an indicator, 95% of players would immediately go "I got shot from the left" on VOIP, find cover, and then begin working a counter-strategy. Without that little indicator, I'm sorry, but, people don't know where they are getting shot from and this does not improve gameplay or realism. It just frustrates people to the point that they quit.

Nevertheless, this is exactly what did happen when the hit indicator was left in. Removing the indicator does add several things:

1) Immersion. Removal of a cluttered, gamey User Interface is a large part of PR's appeal.
2) It stops that "Get-hit, spin-and-return-fire"

It's not easy to tell where you're taking fire from IRL especially at distance or in urban enviroments. You certainly don't stop to do a CSI Miami routine to examine the bullet wound to work it out. Like my last post said - you come under fire, you take cover. End of!

In-game, I generally don't find it's hard to work out where you're taking fire from. It's tricky, but it's not impossible. All it takes is a clear head, a good squad with you and clear communications. If you're being supressed you shouldn't be sticking your head up to work out where the fire's coming from - your squadmates should be doing that whilst you keep your head down to stay alive.

As I said - you have the sound of the weapon being fired and the muzzle flashes to tell you where fire is coming from...

JKJudgeX wrote: The CQB game is weak (really weak). Many of the firearms have really bad accuracy issues, and they don't feel correct. I don't know if the devs have actually fired an AK-47 or 74 or AR-15. We've put over 1500 rounds each through those weapons (only a few through the 74, but we own the other 2, and we have pics to prove it). You can watch videos on youTube and other sites that show "realistic" groupings that can be obtained from those weapons from the hip, at range, iron sights, and in CQB scenarios.

We both feel that Project Reality does a STELLAR job at the midrange (100-200 yards) and long range (250+ yards) for the M-16 single fire mode. We both feel that PR does a relatively poor representation of all AK based rifles, making them far too inaccurate (The regular quality should be able to achieve 2 MoA @ 100 yards, and a beaten up older one 2.5-3). Also, the 3 round burst of an M-16, in reality, places a very tight grouping. As for the Chinese/UK rifles, I don't know, I've never fired them.

The deviation is a problem, and an incredibly hard issue to resolve to everyone's satisfaction. Generally, people are more pleased with deviation in 0.85 than in previous work. I can't comment on how the deviation code for the AK-series is currently set up, I've not got the figures to hand (they're out there in the public forums here if you search). This is something we're always reevaluating though.

JKJudgeX wrote:
Bringing a firearm to your shoulder does not take as much time as it does in PR... I understand why it is done this way, to prohibit unrealistic "action shooting". However, a more "realistic" mechanism would be to greatly decrease the shouldering time, but create a small offset when the rifle is shouldered (this will still delay people from shouldering and instantly killing people at range, but still allow for a quick-shoulder-engage in CQB). This is what really happens when you shoulder a rifle, especially one with a magnified scope...you get it into position quickly, but then have to aim. You don't bring it up slowly and have your point of AIM fixed automatically. The slow shoulder time is greatly injurious to CQB, which is actually fought from the shoulder in real life. The movement speed with a shouldered, iron-sighted weapon or zero-magnification sight is also far, far too slow.

In 0.75 we had large initial deviation that slowly reduced with a quick sight-in animation. The problem this led to was that players had an accurate sight picture but their shots went wildly off-target. It was incredibly frustrating because there was no match-up between what you were seeing (reticle on target) and what was happening (shots going yards off).

Again, the delay in the animation isn't perfect, but it does mean that players have to wait slightly before shooting. We can't introduce weapon sway - ie, we cannot make it so that your sights come up, but then you have to aquire your target. If your gun is aimed at someone whilst at the ready position and you sight in, you will always have a perfect sight-in when your sights come up.

The delay in the shouldering-animation is to 'represent' that delay- it's not just 'putting the weapon into your shoulder', it's 'shouldering weapon, steadying breathing, adjusting stance, aquiring target...' and everything else that is done before you pull that trigger.

JKJudgeX wrote: The part that sucks is that I've been playing for 2 going on 3 weeks, and, I hadn't been excited about an FPS in a while, but, now I feel the creep moving in and the problems with the game that you start to experience when you become more seasoned.

That's understandable. We all get it; some people just reduce their playtime, others play intensively for a few weeks and then ease up, then return, then take a break again. What I will say however is that PR 0.80/0.85 has drawn the largest playerbase that PR has ever had, and we've retained a much greater percentage of those new players than we ever have done following a new release before. Yeah, there are problems. We know there are - we're a modification of a less-than-perfect game engine, and we're hampered in some critical respects - realistic ballistics and small-arms handling are two key areas, IMO. But, on the large, the feeling in the community and in the team is that this has been one of the best releases to day.

JKJudgeX wrote: I've listed some of them here, but, looks like the answer is a flat "no, no, no, nah, huh-uh".

Saying "no" to your flag waving fans (I even did a huge blog article inviting people to play) kinda sucks, but, time will tell.

You need to realise that this modification has been going a long time now. A lot of ground has been covered, some of these gameplay changes you're less than comfortable with have been in place for a long time (hit indicator, for example). They're not about to be reverted, and over time you'll come to see why things like the red hit indicator just wouldn't fit in PR.

Seriously, the team are grateful for any positive attention and we're pleased that on the whole, you and your cousin have enjoyed the mod and have taken the time to provide feedback. However, it's unreasonable to suggest that because you've completed an article on us, that we should consider changes that you've proposed more seriously than anyone else's

Basically, what your key points in the OP raise is some of the core concepts that go to make what PR is today. Although you'll find heated debate in the community (and within the team!) as to what extent these changes should change gameplay - the vast majority of people are in agreement that these changes are required and a Good Thing - and won't be reversed any time now.

That's not us saying "nuh-huh, no, nope, nadda"... that's us defining what this modification should be about!