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Greetings and salutations to you all, im come before you today as a man with mumbleness.

I have in these previous weeks, and days excperienced the raw nature of Mumble i have played with mumbleres, and i have sufferd death with them. And issued death to my foes.

And however great this program is, this so called mumble, it just seems to be lacking something.

I have come to the conclusion of course that not everyone in the battlefield uses mumble, and that alot of others are having issues with mumble in terms of both technical and predjudice.

I completly understand the prejudice, aswell as the technical difficulties of Mumble, but inspite of this knowledge i wish to ask upon you this question, this inquiery.

I want to ask you, if you want all squadleaders on mumble. Do you want to have all the men incharge of a squad in PR to be able to communicate on mumble? Even though we have these issues with it?

Of course this question is not a PR question, it is a question to the men incharge of the servers, and clans of PR. As it is quite dumb to suggest that PR should change itself, instead of the players.

So to the players, admins, server admins, and clan leaders and members. I ask, do we wish to have all Squadleaders ingame on mumble? That you cannot create a squad, until you are on mumble?

This will in my oppinion aswell as in my excperience, that it hugely increases the gameplay, and your enjoyment of this great mod, it feels almost euphorius to stand among blue men fighting red men, whilst your green men around you are shooting at the enemy.

But then again, this can only be implemented if the players want it, and if the servers want to implement rules that enforces this rule. Are we ready for this? And do we want it?

Discuss

// Wicca

Of course this question is not a PR question, it is a question to the men incharge of the servers, and clans of PR. As it is quite dumb to suggest that PR should change itself, instead of the players.

this is why iGi ran mumble nights, other clans and communities have done the same and the Reality Teamwork server will soon enforce it.

But as a server admin, I would not force people to get on mumble, at least not at this point in its development since people are having tech difficulties, (including urself Wicca...) and its still a beta.

Wait for Twisted to come and give us the next versions.

But then again, this can only be implemented if the players want it, and if the servers want to implement rules that enforces this rule. Are we ready for this? And do we want it?

No.

In a game, communication is not something You can not enforce, it has to come from the person itself. There are many players who do not even have a microphone.. and still play a decent role in the game.

I enjoy it to be a squad leader and I like to take the CO chair from time to time, but until now, the Mumble wave has not got me.
Maybe it is simply the fact that I do not want to install and configure another piece of software on my computer to play PR. Or that You have to change the squad leaders channel if You change the team or the server. Or maybe You have even to change the mumble server adress. And lets not forget that there are still many technical difficulties connected to it.

I regard the current "sealed - off" squad communication with the name tag of the speaking player beeing transmitted as the most important tool of the team. A Mumble like system is nice to have, but I personally find that there are too many complications connected to it.
I would rather like to see a rule that regulates the CO-SL-SM relationship as a whole, and have it implemented into the server rules as a general ruleset for all players. For an example, click here.

Implement Mumble into the game engine, without all these things You have to look after, and I am in. Otherwise You just lost a squadleader, and maybe, even a player.

Well by installing the PR mumble all you have to do is set your PTT key and your ready to go.

Well by installing the PR mumble all you have to do is set your PTT key and your ready to go.

What about changing the SL channel depending on the team, and logging into the mumble server? Has this been automated?

wuschel wrote:What about changing the SL channel depending on the team, and logging into the mumble server? Has this been automated?

not yet.

However, if you are participating in an event such as the iGi mumble event, admins will move you to a different channel if you need. (since we tended to have good comptuers etc, we were happy to help out people who have trouble alt tabbing etc)

Mumble works really well atm, but it is still a beta, and there is no shame in not using it because of that fact.

Though about channels etc, that is the same limitation as Teamspeak etc.

I really enjoyed playing on TG mumble the other day, they have 2 seperate channels for each team so that they don't have to worry about hearing eachother. It was far more relaxed than everyone in the same channel.

one main feature mumble needs is able to access it without alt tabbing such as xfire, then id be a happy chappy as i dont trust my comp to alt tab out to change to sl channel etc etc

Dr2B Rudd wrote:not yet.

However, if you are participating in an event such as the iGi mumble event, admins will move you to a different channel if you need. (since we tended to have good comptuers etc, we were happy to help out people who have trouble alt tabbing etc)

That is very nice of You guys. Thumbs up. Still, I am usually not participating in any events, I am usually a pub player/squad leader/CO on a Lenovo T61 notebook. Thus changing the comm. configuration in-game would simply annoy me.

Dr2B Rudd wrote: Mumble works really well atm, but it is still a beta, and there is no shame in not using it because of that fact.

Though about channels etc, that is the same limitation as Teamspeak etc.

That is exactly the reason why I did not consider to use Teamspeak, either.

I am fine with the in-game VOIP. Unless Mumble it is non-work intensive and as well intergrated as this system, I am not going to install it. In my humble opinion, the effect does not justify the effort.

It is more important to push the playing culture forward to make use of the current communication infrastructure and CO-SL-SM chain of command, for currently, these things are not used properly on public servers. What makes You think that mumble would be used 100% on public servers?

Also, too often I have found that there is a huge tendency to over-complicate a gameplay culture with game infrastructure, tactics and strategies. I have designed, co-programmed and administered a couple of play by email games in when the first browser games cought great attention by internet users, and I found similar processes in player organization and coordination and evolvement gameplay. While the efficiency of the player grew [at least of those who wanted to invest extra recources=time into specific improvement factors], I find that they missed the point of the game: fun.

I could play chess and be as much thrilled and enjoyed as with PR. Now, with chess, I could also run a couple of optimization programs to calculate different strategies. But it is not worth it, since I am just playing to relax and have some fun.

wuschel wrote:No.

In a game, communication is not something You can not enforce, it has to come from the person itself. There are many players who do not even have a microphone.. and still play a decent role in the game.

I enjoy it to be a squad leader and I like to take the CO chair from time to time, but until now, the Mumble wave has not got me.
Maybe it is simply the fact that I do not want to install and configure another piece of software on my computer to play PR. Or that You have to change the squad leaders channel if You change the team or the server. Or maybe You have even to change the mumble server adress. And lets not forget that there are still many technical difficulties connected to it.

I regard the current "sealed - off" squad communication with the name tag of the speaking player beeing transmitted as the most important tool of the team. A Mumble like system is nice to have, but I personally find that there are too many complications connected to it.
I would rather like to see a rule that regulates the CO-SL-SM relationship as a whole, and have it implemented into the server rules as a general ruleset for all players. For an example, click here.

Implement Mumble into the game engine, without all these things You have to look after, and I am in. Otherwise You just lost a squadleader, and maybe, even a player.

What i was asking was that all squadleaders would be enforced to use mumble, to be a squadleader. Sort of a physical requierment, rather then the " i promise i will be a gentleman" approach. Its more of a direct contact approach to the problem of squads going about on their own, or not taking part of the AAS order, or just sniping etc. Im not talking about individual players, even if they dont have a mic, but squadleaders really should have a mic, to be able to play properly.

If all the squadleaders were on mumble, i could yell at them, and scare the **** out of them by saying all sorts of remarks and implying the worst things, if he was to be one of the squadleaders who doesnt really want to follow the AAS. etc. Now this infact is a tool, which really does make you able to have more control on the battlefield.

I understand that Commanders could do this very easily, but then again you could just be muted, and although servers do have the ruleset for "follow commanders" orders already implemented, that doesnt mean that someone wants to be commander. But being a squadleader is something which is loved by many. And if there is a squadleader misbehaving, and you have him on mumble. Than the peer pressure gets the best of him, he either leaves the server, starts to follow orders, tries to mute us all, and then gets kicked by an admin.

The way i get it is that BF2 Voip is nice to have, but it really encurages lone squadding. And that even though you can choose to follow the orders of your fellow squadleaders by text, or follow the AAS order, to often this is ignored. And thats were mumble takes this communication to a whole new level.

You might not like having other squadleaders being able to talk to you, but it is the most realistic approach, and you cannot simply kick them, you must work with them, to come to the best approach of a problem. This adds a new level of gameplay in PR, which if standardized, is just epic

Now as u say, that there should be rules that regulates the CO-SL-SM relationship as a whole, and have it implemented into the server rules as a general ruleset for all players. I understand this, but thats going to be an Admins nightmare if every player wishes to follow this to the point, and instead of having a set ruleset for every game, mumble increases the chance of what you would call a "random" ruleset for each game. And the direct possibility to interveene should someone break the "rules".

You must understand, rules are great and all, but rules without effect are useless.
Its like if you throw a rock, and you write on a piece of paper, that when you throw it, it will go 500 m, but in reality its just gonna drop 20 m away from you.

Its like writing in allchat ingame, im going to select a kit, but you cant since its already been issued.

If PR was without for example coding of the kits, just take a kit. And the servers should be regulation that themselfs, who gets what, without a code. Thats a little bit backwards.

So, if you first have the possibility to "punish" then you can go ahead and make the rules. Its in that order, not the other way around. And that is why sadly, alot of great men perish, and their voices never gets heard, perhaps they had a good idea, but they had no power.

If i have the power to communicate with another squadleader, than indeed i have to power to accomplish alot.

In a game, communication is not something You can not enforce, it has to come from the person itself.

-This kind of argument(Players are hardcoded) is getting old. You can force people to use teamwork, you can force people to communicate, you can do all of this, it is exactly what PR has done since its inception.

My main problem with mumble squadleaders and mumblers in general, is their lack of discipline and respect, be it on wichever server/event you want, they will scream whenever they can just because its "kewl" to do it on mumble. Squadleader in mumble would be an excellent thing IF and only IF they didnt tend to ignore the CO, since they are "coordinating" between themselves the CO position for them is just a waste of time...

Change the mentality and I'll change my opinion, mumble the software is great, many mumblers shouldnt even be able to open their mouths.

(Note: That's my experience on servers like RT, I dont want to say that ALL mumblers are like that, hey aren't obviously, but just like asset wasting and noobs crashing valuable assets screaming on mumble seems to be the new annoying thing on PR, unfortunally it happens more then average times.)

To answer the OP's question, I say NO until I see more discipline on the users of mumble.

Wicca wrote: And issued death to my foes.

Lies!!!

Well if you see mumbelers misbehaving, then go ahead and tell them to STFU, or contact them about the problem. Thats what im talking about, if you see a shitty pilot, he keeps crashing helis, and he is on mumble, you should tell him to stop flying. Simple.

(Note: That's my experience on servers like RT, I dont want to say that ALL mumblers are like that, hey aren't obviously, but just like asset wasting and noobs crashing valuable assets screaming on mumble seems to be the new annoying thing on PR, unfortunally it happens more then average times.)

To answer the OP's question, I say NO until I see more discipline on the users of mumble.

thats why I like th TG 2 channel (1 per team) arrangement, its a more relaxing arrangement since the enemy can't hear you (assuming ur int he correct channel ofc )

Was much better to be able to talk to teammates wthout having to worry about dead enemies hearing you

Dr2B Rudd wrote:thats why I like th TG 2 channel (1 per team) arrangement, its a more relaxing arrangement since the enemy can't hear you (assuming ur int he correct channel ofc )

Was much better to be able to talk to teammates wthout having to worry about dead enemies hearing you

Maybe thats a good idea, isntead of having everyone bunching up on the same place.
Well, I've said many times on the RT mumble for people to just STFU! and STOP SPAMMING MUMBLE!, they indeed stop... for 5 seconds... When someone is wasting assets (doesnt need to be necessarly a noob) I dont hesitate to warn him once, and the next Ill kick him out of the server, on mumble we ont have that power, to punish the bad behaviour.

Wicca wrote:What i was asking was that all squadleaders would be enforced to use mumble, to be a squadleader. Sort of a physical requierment, rather then the " i promise i will be a gentleman" approach.

I understand You direct contact approach, and I absolutely agree that it will improve the teamplay on public servers.

On the other hand, I would not really happy about hearing one squad leader complaining about the other while trying to dirigate my own squad.
That is one of the reasons why the CO position is a better approach to organize the squads from a top level. It simply minimizes the information flow of the SL, filters it and displays it partially on the graphic level (map) and partially through voice communication (CO-SL VOIP).

Silverlance; wrote:My main problem with mumble squadleaders and mumblers in general, is their lack of discipline and respect, be it on wichever server/event you want, they will scream whenever they can just because its "kewl" to do it on mumble. Squadleader in mumble would be an excellent thing IF and only IF they didnt tend to ignore the CO, since they are "coordinating" between themselves the CO position for them is just a waste of time...

Change the mentality and I'll change my opinion, mumble the software is great, many mumblers shouldnt even be able to open their mouths.

Wicca; wrote: If i have the power to communicate with another squadleader, than indeed i have to power to accomplish alot.

-This kind of argument(Players are hardcoded) is getting old. You can force people to use teamwork, you can force people to communicate, you can do all of this, it is exactly what PR has done since its inception.

Talking about enforcing Mumble, how would that happen? Are we just talking about dreams? Is it technically possible,or is this going to semi-automated by the server admins?

What happens if a SL does not follow the suggestions of his SLs? Endless discussions in the Squad Leader Channel? Why should the "Super Sniper Squad Leader" listen to the crowd?

Maybe I should give mumble a chance and try it out before critizing it too much. Definatly,
Wicca is right, there is potential in it, and too often I wish there would be a SL channel hard-coded in the BF2 engine. [Can this be modified, by the way?]

However, there is also potential in the CO-SL layer of the game has is not been used so far in public games. Why not making the SL suffering consequences for ignoring CO orders?

I have written in my earlier post (# why I do not want to have mumble in the first place:



The Why I don't use Mumble List:

1) Extra tool to be installed, configured. Still is in beta. Needs time and effort.

2) No automagic channel switching when on wrong team side. I do not want to "alt-tab" out of the game into my windows shell to do this.

3) HAS BEEN SOLVED and was about mumble server switching when switching a PR server.

4) No ID tags while communicating.

5) Information overflow is possible and very probable on public servers. I want efficient and enforced communication. In a squad I can do this as SL, and with the CO I can deal with usually really well. In Mumble that would, again, be a hassle.



Change four of these things, or intergrate it into the engine, and You got me to give it a serious try. Otherwise I do not believe it is the right way to go. On the contrary, I think we need very tough rules and enforced rules on the CO-SL-SM command chain.

For now: NO Mumbling!

The wonderfull thing about Mumble too, is that it has positional audio, there is nothing like having the squad set up a defencive position, then get another squadleader do the same, and meet and talk about how to attack a place. Pretty simple, and you keep the chatter down in the Squaldeader channel.

Obviously, you need to follow proper protocols to use the "squadleader channel" Or else someone will tell you to STFU.

If a squadleader chooses to not obey his fellow squadleaders, and he fails at what he is doing, and his squad knows that, well, i dont know about you, but then i would fall apart pretty soon.

And also, when on mumble, it is quite easy to assign platoon leaders, and "commanders" in the squadleader channel. Makes the assignment of objectives easy.

"
2) No automagic channel switching when on wrong team side. I do not want to "alt-tab" out of the game into my windows shell to do this.
3) No automagic mumble server switcher when I join a different PR server
4) No ID tags while communicating.
5) Information overflow is possible.
"

With number 2 and 3 you mean that you will be switched to the appropriate server when you join that server in mumble? And when you go SL, you will be switched to the SL channel right? and right team?

What do you mean with number 4 and 5?

3) No automagic mumble server switcher when I join a different PR server

just in case people misunderstood this, mumble using servers have a channel on the master PR mumble server, so if you move servers its a question of moving channels, not moving mumble servers.

5) Information overflow is possible and very probable on public servers.

In my experience (and thats having around 10 rounds in full/near full mumble servers, and numerous rounds with 1 or 2 other squads on mumble on my team) This is only a danger if there is no1 calm around. People tend to start chatting etc to eachother when nothing is happening, in fact it would be an interesting psychological study since players congregate in social circles when they are talking, or automatically form semicircles around squad leaders who are discussing tactics.

Mumble atm is only used for inter not INTRA squad coms, so the spam is usually very small ingame. its just people out of game who can piss you off.

During the stress test bf2 voip turned off, so we all had to use mumble since there was nothing else, and it was very very hard to keep everything straight, I had to say things like "squad 6 on me" whenever we got entangled in a friendly squad so that we could maintain order

Again, teh TG setup prevents any overload at all, since there will usually be no more than 2 people talking at a time near you on mumble, and they will either be far away and quiet or close and will wait for eachother to stop talking. On mumble channels with everyone in one channel, it can get spammy as you can sometimes hear the neemy talking to eachother at the same time you are trying to talk to someone.

4) No ID tags while communicating.

well, there is. But some people get PB kicks with it.

Wicca wrote:The wonderfull thing about Mumble too, is that it has positional audio, there is nothing like having the squad set up a defencive position, then get another squadleader do the same, and meet and talk about how to attack a place. Pretty simple, and you keep the chatter down in the Squaldeader channel.

Yes, indeed I find that a very good feature. Especially when it comes to combined arms cooperation (APC-INF, APC TANK, HELITRANS-INF).

Wicca wrote: Obviously, you need to follow proper protocols to use the "squadleader channel" Or else someone will tell you to STFU.

This is what I meant with point 4. I do not want to hear every infantry man's "Walkman" next to me. The BF2 engine gives You the option to mute a player. To do this in mumble, if it is possible at all, I would need to go to the windows shell again.
Also, have You ever been a commander with 5 squad leaders trying to talk to You at once? That is what I mean by information overflow: In standard VOIP, You can handle and enforce this quite well in the squad. What is it in mumble? How often do You get "overflowed"?

If a squadleader chooses to not obey his fellow squadleaders, and he fails at what he is doing, and his squad knows that, well, i dont know about you, but then i would fall apart pretty soon.

That depends on the leading style. You can be a kick-*** squad leaders with superb tactical skills, who really push to win infantry battles. If You have these kick-*** skills, You can be very authoritarian. As long as You are effective and make good decision, people stay with You. Once You start to fail continuesly, players will leave Your squad.

I am usually trying to get players to communicate with me more about our tactics and strategy and bring them into planning. Of course, I make basic decisions as well and push my squad members into a specific situation - but often I get my squad involved to develop a situation as well.
In my opinion, while beeing more difficult to achieve because You need more free-thinking, experienced and patient players, You can generate very good squad cohesion that way that is immune to failure and has a very high fun factor. In simple: If we fail, it is not only my fault

With number 2 and 3 you mean that you will be switched to the appropriate server when you join that server in mumble? And when you go SL, you will be switched to the SL channel right? and right team?

Wicca wrote:What do you mean with number 5?

With 4 beeings answered earlier, I just explain 5: I see not the name of the person that is speaking, not is he marked out on the map in any way. That is what I liked a lot in in-game VOIP: You really associate voices to players, player names and kits.

Dr2B_Rudd wrote: just in case people misunderstood this, mumble using servers have a channel on the master PR mumble server, so if you move servers its a question of moving channels, not moving mumble servers.

Allright. So that is solved then.

Well on number one... If you dont give it time, it wont give you anything back. its the same with PR, it crashes for me, a thousand times a month, CTD, PB. Reboots etc. But i still play it.
You just need to try it, dont be afraid man, its ok

Number two... Well im using mumble, i alt tab. Its ok, and i also think its going to be implemented in the next version. Although im not sure.

Number 4 It is availible, but you get kicked by PB for hacking, cause its overlaying into the BF2.

Number 5 Only happends when you have like 4 squads on one location, and everyone is talking at the same time. And well, noone can hear anything, so they usually just stop talking. And yeah, having 4 squads at the same location is really rare...