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So as people may know, America's Army 3 has been out for awhile now. If people don't know what America's Army is, its a game heavily based on the Army itself and how it works. I'm gonna stop advertising the game and get to my question.

So when i first found out in AA3 that the DMR was an M16A4 and not a M14, i was confused. I want to bring this question to the forumers here and wanted to clear things out whether the M16A4 is a Designated Marksman Rifle in the Army or the M14 is the DMR for the army. Or what if it's both ?

I searched up wikipedia (don't trust them though) and read an article on how the US army has a SDM (squad designated marksmen) and the marksmen uses a modified M16 too. Don't know if its true or not but if you wanna read it here you go

United States Army Squad Designated Marksman Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here is a picture and the description of the DMR in AA3



"The M16A4 DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) is a more accurate version of the M16A4 that is issued to a squad's designated marksman. Fitted with a heavy 20-inch barrel this weapon is designed to accurately engage the enemy beyond the maximum range of the other squad members' weapons systems. Typically fitted with the Trijicon ACOG M150 4x optic, the M16A4 DMR is equipped with a 2-stage match trigger and can only be fired in the semi-automatic firemode."

Honestly, I just think its a M16A4 with a slapped on Acog scope. Big whoop ? :\

What do YOU guys think ?

The Army and Marines used the M14 as a placeholder for a later system. Other placeholders include systems such as this, a modified M16A4 with higher magnification optics and a heavier, longer barrel, and a new trigger mechanism.

I'm not sure what the Army had decided on for its DMR, but the Marines have adopted the Mk. 12 as theirs.

waldo_ii wrote:The Army and Marines used the M14 as a placeholder for a later system.

Sorry, but english please xD - no but seriously mind explaining a bit more ?

but the Marines have adopted the Mk. 12 as theirs.

Yea i saw some photo's of Marines using the Mk 12, but does the Marines in General (excluding any special marine units) use the mk 12 ?

btw look what i found lol

He means the M14 is a marksman rifle until a better rifle replaces it. The M16A4 with higher magnification optics and a heavier, longer barrel, and a new trigger mechanism is also waiting to be replaced. He continues to say that the MK 12 is the new DMR of the marines, and that he doesn't know what the Army wants for their DMR.

As soldiers began to be issued optics, the position of "squad designated marksman" started, as not everybody in a squad would get magnified optics at the same time. The one guy who got an ACOG or whatever would be the guy who was called upon to make ranged shots. He became the unofficial squad designated marksman.

Soon the commanders started noticing this, and they saw that the position of a designated marksman per squad was in high-demand and was necessary. They got the idea to give one member per squad a fancy, more accurate rifle. They didn't have a million brand new rifles, so they said "Hey, we got a shitload of old M14s, lets mount some optics on these and give them out until we can get a new squad designated marksman rifle."

The Army and the Marines used the M14 as a palaceholder for a later system.

waldo_ii wrote:As soldiers began to be issued optics, the position of "squad designated marksman" started, as not everybody in a squad would get magnified optics at the same time. The one guy who got an ACOG or whatever would be the guy who was called upon to make ranged shots. He became the unofficial squad designated marksman.

Soon the commanders started noticing this, and they saw that the position of a designated marksman per squad was in high-demand and was necessary. They got the idea to give one member per squad a fancy, more accurate rifle. They didn't have a million brand new rifles, so they said "Hey, we got a shitload of old M14s, lets mount some optics on these and give them out until we can get a new squad designated marksman rifle."

The Army and the Marines used the M14 as a palaceholder for a later system.

I see. So its basically the weapon the infantrymen uses that defines whether he/she is the DM or not, am i correct ?

And to be on topic with the M16 as a DMR, does this mean that they are being replacing the current DMR ? The way i see it is because of maybe a ammo or weight issue. Because the M14 uses a 7.62, only that infantrymen is designated with that round while the rest of the fireteam/squad is using a 5.56. And if there comes a problem where the DM might run out of ammo, no one might not be able to supply the DM with ammo cause everyone else is carrying what they need for their weapon. Again correct me if i am wrong.

mrnothing wrote:I see. So its basically the weapon the infantrymen uses that defines whether he/she is the DM or not, am i correct ?

And to be on topic with the M16 as a DMR, does this mean that they are being replacing the current DMR ? The way i see it is because of maybe a ammo or weight issue. Because the M14 uses a 7.62, only that infantrymen is designated with that round while the rest of the fireteam/squad is using a 5.56. And if there comes a problem where the DM might run out of ammo, no one might not be able to supply the DM with ammo cause everyone else is carrying what they need for their weapon. Again correct me if i am wrong.

No, the role they play in the squad decides whether or not they are the the DM. Then that behavior decides who gets the weapon. The weapon is not the cause and becoming DM is the effect. Being a DM is the cause, the effect is them getting a DMR.


For the Marines, the decision to use the Mark 12 was for many reasons. For one, it resembles the M16A4s in service, so the soldier is not a specific target for the enemy. Also, the ability to use STANAG magazines and rounds from squadmates is a big plus. Weight and recoil is also a large reason, they have to have the ability to work in the confined spaces of modern urban warfare. The M14 had many flaws, including jamming and high muzzle rise, weight, and length. The Mk. 12 comes with a collapsible stock and pre-mounted 1913 rails for attaching accessories.

Sounds like a good excuse for the DEV team to consider throwing in the Mk 12.

Sgt. Robert Montanaro, from 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, readjusts his sights on a Mark-12 designated marksman rifle during a live-fire exercise at Sahl Sinjar, Iraq, April 27, 2009. Montanaro says he likes the addition of the suppressor, because of its ability to make shooters stealthier.
(Official U.S. Marine Corps Photo by Cpl Alan Addison)

So if the marines are using the Mk.12 then, what about the Army ? You said that weight and length were an issue with the M14, but the Mk. 14 EBR seems to be fixing the issues with the M14.

doesn't the 5.56 round seem too "light" for a DMR ammunition?

the AR-10 which uses NATO 7.62:




or the new US made 6.8 mm Remington SPC (6.8x43mm), used by the Barrett’s Piston-Driven REC7 (source: tactical-life.com):



each seem more appropriate for the job of DMR, IMHO.
by the way, i like the M-14 DMR in game as is right now.

Meza82 wrote:doesn't the 5.56 round seem too "light" for a DMR ammunition?

The Mk12 is employed with the Mk262 Mod 0/1, a heavier grain 5.56 bullet (77gr.) as opposed to the standard issue M855 which is 62gr. It provides superior accuracy, range and damage to the standard cartridge.

-REad

This has come up before. Including in a couple of threads you made, mrnothing.

Both M14s and M16 / M4 SDMRs are being used at the squad level at the moment in the US Army. This description from the AA3 website is the first I have heard of the M16/M4 weapons having any modified/non-standard or match-grade components (two-stage match trigger, semi-auto only). Otherwise, other sources claim they have just the RCO and a bipod (Harris or GG&G), and were still 3RB capable. I continue to see marksmen in photos with M14s with EBR and standard stocks, and as of last year, they appeared to be purchasing new ones.

Classes on new M14 take precision marksmanship to new levels

The the Marines, the Mk-12 rifles have been coming into service for the line rifle companies for over a year, so the status of other weapon types I am unsure of. At one time there were/are three types of M16 based DMR floating around. West coast units have (had?) M16A4s with bipods and RCOs, with no mods that I have heard of. East coast units have (had?) the SAM-R (Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle), which features a more powerful, variable magnification optic and match barrels with floating rails.

Also the Marines have acquired the M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle, which is another EBR M14 variant. It seems to be intended for Scout-Sniper Observers, Security Forces/FAST/RTT, MSG, MP SRT and EOD units. However, the USMC also started fielding Mk-11 rifles a few years ago and those have also been replacing the USMC Precision Weapons Section produced M14 DMR. So I am not sure which is going to be the dominant semi-auto 7.62mm rifle for the Marines.

Just put em all in for the respective forces...and make it random which one you get on request of the DMR.


I'm sure that's impossible. M14 does the job. No issues.

[R-DEV]Eddie Baker wrote:This has come up before. Including in a couple of threads you made, mrnothing.

I know i posted some threads about this but they were suggestions to add to PR. what i'm trying to do now is clear things up on what the current DMR in both the Marines and Army is and to also read other peoples opinion's on this issue.

Back on topic, seeing that there is more then one DMR in service for both the Marines and Army, what factors would it take to determine which weapon (SAM-R, M14 EBR, M16A4 DMR, M39 EMR, Mk 12, Mk 11) would be the dominate DMR for PR ? is in the number of rifle in-service ?

mrnothing wrote:Back on topic, seeing that there is more then one DMR in service for both the Marines and Army, what factors would it take to determine which weapon (SAM-R, M14 EBR, M16A4 DMR, M39 EMR, Mk 12, Mk 11) would be the dominate DMR for PR ? is in the number of rifle in-service ?

It would be whatever is most common at the conventional rifle squad level for the respective faction. M39/Mk-11 in USMC is for specialized units, as has been stated earlier, rather than the line rifle companies.

'[R-DEV wrote:Eddie Baker;1069458']It would be whatever is most common at the conventional rifle squad level for the respective faction.

It's a way too early to say this, but because it looks like both platforms (M14/Mk 14 EBR - Mk 12, SDM-R, M16A4 DMR) aren't going to be going anywhere, maybe both of the platforms should be implemented. Like how the LMG is a limited kit you can choose when you join a squad, the DM would have the standard DMR rifle first and the have the ability to choose another DMR by requesting it. Again way too early to talk about and plus this doesn't belong in the General Discussion forums.

M39/Mk-11 in USMC is for specialized units, as has been stated earlier, rather than the line rifle companies.

Sorry didn't catch that till i read it the second time.


Now again like i said, because there are 2 platforms for the DMR (M14 or modified M16), what platform would you as a Military Advisor, choose to implement into PR based on the specs and feedback the platform has had on the battlefield.

mrnothing wrote:Now again like i said, because there are 2 platforms for the DMR (M14 or modified M16), what platform would you as a Military Advisor, choose to implement into PR based on the specs and feedback the platform has had on the battlefield.

I've not had experience with either of the weapons; I'm a civilian international relations and security studies grad student. I can only give informed opinions based on what appears to be the most common, and then interview active duty sources on the rest.

[R-DEV]Eddie Baker wrote:I've not had experience with either of the weapons; I'm a civilian international relations and security studies grad student. I can only give informed opinions based on what appears to be the most common, and then interview active duty sources on the rest.

What i mean't by "feed-back" was interview's or reviews of soldiers who have used the platform already and have given their thoughts on the performance of it. or basically what you just said xD

II MEF Marines receive training on new rifle

Marines train with designated marksman rifle

Anti-Terrorism unit evaluates rifle

I found some articles on the Official Marines website about Marines using the Mk 12 and SAM-R and their opinion on the platforms.

I looked up the MK 12 and saw this on Wikipedia:


Is that a night vision optic looking through a scope that is looking through an EOTech with some other magical optic attached above the scope?

Solid Knight wrote:I looked up the MK 12 and saw this on Wikipedia:


Is that a night vision optic looking through a scope that is looking through an EOTech with some other magical optic attached above the scope?

yea..IMO its too much, the combination of all those scopes probably weighs more than the gun

mrnothing wrote:What i mean't by "feed-back" was interview's or reviews of soldiers who have used the platform already and have given their thoughts on the performance of it. or basically what you just said xD

II MEF Marines receive training on new rifle

Marines train with designated marksman rifle

Anti-Terrorism unit evaluates rifle

I found some articles on the Official Marines website about Marines using the Mk 12 and SAM-R and their opinion on the platforms.

If we can trust wikipedia, SAM-R is issued only to II MEF units (22nd, 24th and 26th MEUs) and we probably can because I've never seen SAM-R anywhere else than those units.

They are probably using Mk12 pretty much and I think M39 will be more common in the future.