Project Reality Forums

Hi everyone, let me first say that this mod is great and I was waiting for an online experience like this for a long time.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to share my thoughts about the mod's class balancing system. These are just ideas, I hope you don't mind the long text...

1. Assault - It's fine the way it is. I would only reduce his ability to move silently. In both vBF2 and PRMM all classes move with no sound (yes, you can hear your footsteps, but other players can't), even when running. This should be reserved to Special Forces and Snipers. To compensate that, I would slightly increase his speed and breath, after all he's a trainned soldier and even I, not beeing a soldier, can run longer than him =). Furthermore if you saw a grenade falling next to you in real life you'd run faster than that, no matter how tired you were. Basically he's the standard soldier and should be able to move fast (while not completelly silent, unless he's carefull and slow, maybe crouch walking) to attack enemies. He also doesn't resupply others because he carries enough weigh already. Players can get what they need from vehicles, which was an AWESOME idea.

2. Support - It's not fine the way it is. He's supposed to be the big guy with a big weapon mounted somewhere safe to unleash hell at the enemy. Not an Assault class. He would be very slow moving (kinda like HWGuy in Team Fortress) and noisy becouse of all those belts he's carrying. He won't give his ammo to his fellows because he needs it.

3. Special Forces - It's fine. I would only increase his bombs (very powerful C4, claymores and mines) and downgrade his M4 to a silenced MP5. This would prevent players from using it as combat regulars (as they are doing right now). If you want combat, choose the Assault. Also, the Spec has no vest, but moves very silently, fast and has a long sprint. He will be extremely well camoufled and he will loose his ridiculous red hat, in order to work behind enemy lines.

4. Medic - It's fine but I would I would remove his healing medkit. It's frustrating when the guy keeps firing at you because he has a medic behind him holding his instant healing magic box and you don't. Than you die despite you hit him first. To stop from bleeding, players will bandage themselves during which they will drop their weappons (Action Quake 2 style, which you may find strange but is realistic) and will not be able to sprint. Another option, even more realistic, is to have another player, also with guns down help you to get done much faster. Of course he would be for some serious points in teamwork.

5. Engeneer - You guys are going to kill me, but I'll say no engeneers. There's no point since militar engeneers are supposed to work on bridges, pieces of equipment and stuff like that which takes time. They don't fix tanks while in combat. As with medics, its frustrating when the enemy tank holds a lot more damage than you because it has an engeneer behind it with his magic wrench. It's even more ridiculous when the engeneer is in another vehicle.

6. Sniper - Nothing to add here. Maybe no grenades and a more accurate aim?

7. AT - No suggestions here.

Weappons balancing - People (myself included) are changing to Support class to score kills because currently he is the unrealistic ultimate soldier, substituting the Assault class. But the Assault class has the assault rifle, which is more accurate and lighter to manouver, thus he should win most encounters unless the Support is already prone (or resting his weappon on a low wall or another object) in the right place waiting for the Assault. I would solve this problem changing the damage system to one shot one kill in the torso or head, unless it's pistol (or submachinegun) against vest, which would take several hits to kill. Now the Support may release his shower of bullets, because the Assault will hit with first shoot and he will not. Yeah, in real life the first shoot is everything, because it's enough to kill or neutralize, no matter if it's rifle or pistol. Now shots to other body parts will result in bleeding, the amount of which will depend on the round caliber. Fifties and bigger will kill or neutralize wherever they hit. There should also be penetration differences and rifles and bigger going trough wall and people.

Thats all, thanks for the patience on reading this... Please give your oppinion on what I wrote...

No offense, but I don't like these at all.

A lil too realistic for me ...

And gameplay and realism are not opposed to each other in certain fashions, but there is quite some variation in depending what you're arguing it in.

Dont like any of the ideas ither, games would last a total of 5 minutes, large maps would be imposable to impliment, vehicles would be almost useless.

If you want that kind of realism AA already exists. PR has to have balance between realism and gameplay.

great ideas!

I like most of the ideas. Very nice idea for adding sound, as I feel the silent infrantry ruins alot more realism then it would detract from gameplay.

It would be also be cool (if not impossible) if the medic couldnt heal himself, especially from bulletwounds; most likely no. The 'support' gunner should be very slow.

I do agree that PR seems more geared towards gameplay/balance then other 'realistic' war games. But when i watched the trailer that made me want to play the mod, it was all about realism, not all this gameplay **** that got me into it. Either way I am hooked now. I think most of these ideas are not entirely gameplay damaging.

Oh on another note, I don't think this stuff is very class balancing ... it's more of a suggesstion change.

Ok. In my deffense I have to say that games wont last only 5 min because players will be carefull not to die (ex. not play rambo style). And vehicles will be useful more than ever because you would only spawn at your rear base and with no instant supplyes from commander God's magic hand they would be the only way to recharge. Also there would be more transport-only vehicles like big military trucks.

Note: I already tryed AA and I couldn't play it because I was dead for the most time watching others playing. That's why I like BF2.

fred450 wrote:
Note: I already tryed AA and I couldn't play it because I was dead for the most time watching others playing. That's why I like BF2.

Exactly, a lot of your suggestion will turn this game into that. its a different style of realism.

and btw, people do make sounds when moveing. try turning up your sound quality if posable.

I like them too. Sadly (pulls on flame retardant suit) most of them wont be used here since this isnt a realism mod in the sense of Reality. Its like more like Realism Lite. Project Reality Lite. That's more appropriate...no offense.

Dont get me wrong....love the mod...its just lacking because some players want nametags on friendly units at long ranges, no class limitations, and reject suggestions made toward realism.

Realism and fun arent mutually exclusive.

JohnDoeGamer wrote:I like them too. Sadly (pulls on flame retardant suit) most of them wont be used here since this isnt a realism mod in the sense of Reality. Its like more like Realism Lite. Project Reality Lite. That's more like it.

Thats completely true, but dont go expecting anything to change. the BF2 engine is not an engine that should be used if you want pure realism which you cant get anyway because its a game.

This was discused quite a while ago and it came to the same conclusion, PR is here to provide a more realistic experiance without crippleing gameplay, if you want more realism than what PR will provide then play AA.

Please dont get me wrong, my intention isnt to damage the gameplay, but to use realism as a tool to increase it. I feell it's perfectly possible in PRMM and that's why I'm posting here. I'm all for gameplay, so don't you agree it should be improved so that you can hear your enemy footsteps? (all games which are foccused in gameplay feature this) Don't you agree the current support class is way too powerful and its bad for gameplay? Don't you feel there is like a caotic deathmatch atmosphere in the servers with players spawning everywhere instead of a frontline shapped battle? Don't you agree it's bad for gameplay? It wont turn into AA boredom because you can respawn after you die, and if you ask me respawn time should be decreased.

Pliskin wrote:No offense, but I don't like these at all.

lol same here.

Eden wrote:Dont like any of the ideas ither, games would last a total of 5 minutes, large maps would be imposable to impliment, vehicles would be almost useless.

If you want that kind of realism AA already exists. PR has to have balance between realism and gameplay.

what are you talking about? His ideas are unrealistic and non-applicable to real life soldiers.

JohnDoeGamer wrote:I like them too. Sadly (pulls on flame retardant suit) most of them wont be used here since this isnt a realism mod in the sense of Reality. Its like more like Realism Lite. Project Reality Lite. That's more appropriate...no offense.

Dont get me wrong....love the mod...its just lacking because some players want nametags on friendly units at long ranges, no class limitations, and reject suggestions made toward realism.

Realism and fun arent mutually exclusive.

Yea, then in that case, the devs should change the mod name to Project Semi-Reality, because they certainly are fluffing things up now.

People that think that realism and fun are mutually exclusive have ADD or something, and need to play pacman.

Eden wrote:Thats completely true, but dont go expecting anything to change. the BF2 engine is not an engine that should be used if you want pure realism which you cant get anyway because its a game.

This was discused quite a while ago and it came to the same conclusion, PR is here to provide a more realistic experiance without crippleing gameplay, if you want more realism than what PR will provide then play AA.

Then its realism boundries should be pushed as far as the engine can allow. So far, all of this balancing and fairness stuff is just a tactic on trying to draw in more arcady players to the mod, and not focusing on attracting the players that should be playing this mod, MIL SIM people.

Okay JohnDoe you are ignoring, IMHO, the work the DEVs are putting in. These guys give up their free time to advance PRMM, they are not doing this wit hany support from DICE/EA of for any personal gain - they are volunteers.

On top of that this is 0.3, our 3rd full release. Now, I'm gonig to spell it out for you....this means it is not even a FULL release yet. Okay? That means there is a lot of time for things to be changed and improved. But this will take time - and the DEVs are more interested in making the big changes (which you casually ignore) rather than not release for 7 months as they fix some small nagging bugs.

Think before you post.

fred450 wrote:Please dont get me wrong, my intention isnt to damage the gameplay, but to use realism as a tool to increase it. I feell it's perfectly possible in PRMM and that's why I'm posting here. I'm all for gameplay, so don't you agree it should be improved so that you can hear your enemy footsteps? (all games which are foccused in gameplay feature this) Don't you agree the current support class is way too powerful and its bad for gameplay? Don't you feel there is like a caotic deathmatch atmosphere in the servers with players spawning everywhere instead of a frontline shapped battle? Don't you agree it's bad for gameplay? It wont turn into AA boredom because you can respawn after you die, and if you ask me respawn time should be decreased.

I like your sound ideas and realism stuff, but some others are just weird. Like the bit about special forces. All of the kits should be what respective soldiers would receive in real life.

Err..
The thing is, I don't see the point of removing the "magical" wrench and the "magical" medkit (which ARE not that realistic, I agree with you on that) as long as we still have to capture these little flags spread across the whole battlefield and as long as we can "respawn" on these flags, or even worse, at our squad leader.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to go for 100% realism, you'd have to go all the way, hence removing this comic-like ridicolous flags and respawning.

But as others have said, this would make the rounds incredibly boring because as soon as you're dead, you're dead. And have to watch the remaining round (which WILL be over in 5 minutes).

I like the majority of the gameplay the way it is now.
The flags and the ability to "capture" them, aswell as the magical wrench and medkit, aswell as the respawning are unrealistic aspects of the gameplay, yet these are the things that make the game (which it remains, after all) actually fun and decently enjoyable to everyone.

I like some of your suggestions though.

Assault:
As has been mentioned before, you DO hear other players running / walking, heck even CRAWLING around. Also, go outdoors in real life, into the woods or whate-have-ya. Have a friend walk around close to you on the grass and you will notice that unlike most computer games, you won't hear loud CHUNK CHUNK CHUNK sounds (ala Counter-Strike, etc.) at all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm someone who is heavily depended on sound in first-person-shooters, because I'm quite good at detecting my enemies and predicting their movement due to their footsteps, but I'm glad they didn't over-do this in BF2 because the way most FPS display it, it's just plain unrealistic. Heck, I've been banned for "wallhacking" from so many CS servers, I stopped counting at one point, because I was usually leading my targets through walls before I could even see them. But real life doesn't allow you that and I think BF2 does quite fine the way it is.

As for the ammo packs;
Again, I disagree here. We need at least ONE class which can supply the other soldiers with ammunition, and it's nice that this class is NOT the machine gunner, as opposed to vBF2.
It's more fun (and realistic) to have a second guy giving the machine gunner ammunition.
Still, we need one infantry class to have ammo bags. While it's true that you can resupply at vehicles, there are maps, such as Muttrah City which don't even include any vehicles (except for helos at the US carrier, of course) at all.

Support
I think it'd be interesting to see the support guy slowed down a little more, it would force people to play defensively (as they should), I suppose.

Spec OPs
I agree. The hat, while looking cool, is kind of silly, but I can live with it if they keep it
I think he shouldn't carry mines or claymores at all because he's supposed to be an offensive class and mines / claymores should be used for defensive purposes only, which is the engineer's job (this is, of course, assuming to keep the engineer, which I'm all for).
I agree that he should get a little more potent explosives though.
The Spec OPs should be guys who can work alone, they shouldn't have to rely on assault guys to give them ammo when they try to take out a UAV trailer or artillery because it takes like 20 SLAMs to get the job done.
Keep the SLAMs, with a timed detonation, so they can be used offensively only (engineer should keep the C4, as it is now, for defensive purposes / ambushes), but make the SLAMs A LOT stronger. 2 SLAMs should take down a UAV trailer / artillery completely, and give the Spec OPs 4 or 5 of them.
Silenced MP5 would be allright too, I guess, since it's not supposed to be an assault class.
But then again, I don't see THAT many people play spec ops as an assault class anyway right now, so I'd be fine with the M4 aswell.

Medic
As I already mentioned, I like the, not 100% realistic "magical" med packs. It's a LOT better than in vBF2, where running over packs lying on the ground would INSTANTLY heal you.
Now that was TOO arcadey, but with the medic having to sit right next to you, unable to fight while he is treating you, AND with the healing taking so much time, it's quite balanced while still fun to play in my opinion.
Really, having a medic right next to an infantryman won't give this guy so much of an advantage. 2 or 3 hits will kill him, because the healing progresses way too slow to really make a difference here.
If you see an enemy, you burst him down 'til he doesn't move anymore. This usually happens within about 1 or 2 seconds at best. The medic can't really make difference in this time. I don't see a problem here.

What I WOULD like to see is the bleeding, which starts when your health drops about 1/4 of the maximum to start earlier (maybe 1/2 of health left) but give EVERY infantry class a bandage (one-time use only) to just stop the bleeding. The bandage can be refilled at vehicles / supply drops and the medic will have to heal you anyway, but at least you could treat the bleeding yourself - which would take some time (10 seconds maybe) and expose you.

Would be nice because you could finally stop a bleeding and give you at least a small chance of survival if all the medics are incompetent newbies who don't give a fuck about you, and to allow some time to retreat to your base and find a medic to actually heal you.

Engineer
As already mentioned, while I think the "magical" wrench is not 100% realistic, it fits the rest of the general theme quite well and I don't really have a problem with it.
Vehicles, especially tanks would be next to useless if there was no way to repair them.
I agree that in real life, there wouldn't be a group of engineers starting to fix a tank that just got hit by an AT missile in the middle of a firefight, but then again, real life battlefields look totally different than that what the BF2 engine is capable of.
Also, the armament of the engineer is ok aswell.
What we DO need are claymores / mines to stay a lot longer after the person who placed them has been killed, but this has been discussed in a different thread already.

Sniper
The rifles seem quite unpredictable as of now.
Also add rangefinger binocs and make the sniper scopes' dashes represent in-game distances so we can actually USE the range finder and the rifle's scope to actually AIM and adjust our aiming to the distance we are shooting at, rather than being forced to guess the bullet drop over and over again.
Maybe replace the frag grenade with a smoke grenade for distraction / cover purposes. Sniper, again, is a defensive class, no need for handgrenades. Besides, hardly anyone seems to use them anyway while playing sniper.

AT
Make the AT class move a little slower, but maybe give him at least a submachine gun / PDW, rather than JUST a pistol.
Slow him down to make sure he doesn't use the submachine gun to play offensively against infantry, but this guy should be able to at least DEFEND himself a LITTLE against the odd incoming soldier. The guys who take one for the team and play AT to take out that enemy tank or APC don't deserve to be humiliated like that by the enemies infantry

(I realize that it's the squads job to protect the AT guy, but a PDW (MP7 maybe) or something like that wouldn't be too bad I think).

Weapon balancing
I have found that, unlike, as you said, the support guy is already prone, I usually win one-on-one battles when playing as a medic / assault and therefore using an assault rifle whilst fighting a support guy.

Contrary to popular opinion I don't find the the support guns as deadly accurate as most people make them out to be. They really have a wide bullet spread, even while prone, and the assault rifles have a BIG advantage when it comes to range and accuracy.
The thing is though, when you attack a proning support soldier who is spraying bullets towards you and your cover, you are SUPPSOED to lose.
If you attack him head-on whilst he is spraying bullets in your general direction, it's entirely your fault and you dying is exactly what is supposed to happen - that's what suppresing fire is for, to keep the enemy behind their cover.
If you surprise the enemy support guy and he is still standing, you WILL usually take him down rather quickly with an assault rifle.

Machine guns such as the SAW are lethal as hell in real life and they are actually fairly accurate too.

I think the dev team got the weapon dynamics themselves pretty ok actually.
I do agree that the support guys should be a little slower.
And I think it is a nice idea to have the assault guys carry ammo bags.

In order to defend a position over a longer period of time and fire the **** out of pinned down enemies to keep them down, you WILL need LOTS of ammo bags, so the support class, in order to work more efficiently, NEEDS the assault guys anyway.

They should be really disadvantaged when playing offensively though, I agree with that.
Hence make them slower and MAYBE make the machine guns even more inaccurate whilst standing, but that's it. And I'm not even that sure about the latter, as I personally can't hit shit whilst standing with the MGs the way they are right now anyway.



In conclusion (sorry for the long post), you won't get this game to be 100% real-life anyway.
To do that you'd need to take out the flag-system, you'd need to make the battlefields bigger, you'd need to simulate proper tank squads, air support, you'd need to give the US carriers support of submarines and battleships (a MEC team of 5 people shouldn't be able to "capture" a carrier with a single fucking BOAT), and finally, you'd have to get rid of respawning.
When you're dead, you're dead.
And if you'd have to watch 90% of the game, it would get really, really boring. It's about finding a nice way inbetween, and if "magical" wrenches and med packs (which aren't even THAT "magical" compared to vBF2 anyway) add to overall gamplay fun (such as goddamn FLAGS in the middle of the battlefield) then so be it.